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Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness



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Taochan

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Yes, Sora DID succumb to his own darkness because that is what the Heart Unlocker-Keyblade he used for Harakiri does, it exposes your heart to your own darkness and causes it to overlfow.
The Keyblade of Heart unlocks a heart which releases the darkness inside, creating a Heartless.

Semantics but thought that should be cleared up nonetheless.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

@Alan Smithee - there be monseters here indeed.

And Xehanort is actually proud of what he does.

I forgot that the sword did that I just remembered it unlocking ones heart, forgot that the unlocked heart also succumbs to darkness...
Yeah Xehanort is giving Xanatos a run for his money and he has a lot of it. I can't see the next Saga's villain being able to keep up.

I doubt it will be less monstrous this time. *ggg*.

Yep, he's even sort of a sadist partly enjoying all the misery he causes. We don't even need a horrific example in detail, just looking at his devilish smirk when he sets Isa on to attack Lea in the finale of DDD or when he admits that he damaged Ven's heart on purpose in BBS is enough.

Ok, there's your explanation there for Riku's case then.
That depends solely on how the next villain is developed and portrayed, he/she doesn't have to be necessarily to be a mastermind and strategic genius like Xehanort was. It can be a total different type of villain, although I am not referring to his primary element in this case like Alan is mainly focused on.

It's true, they all had to suffer sad fates, each fate is worse than death in it's own way.
Yeah I think that was one of Ansem's biggest mistakes at that moment, he tried to kill the person Riku was fixated on saving.

That's true. Aqua even became somewhat of a replacement mother to the lost boys, if memory serves right. Yeah I think Ven actually helped Sora develop that personality trait/ability.
I'd love them to each have their own style it would make multiple scenarios more rewarding.
Um... what's the difference between strategical and tactical? Anyways how much Eraqus' heart is truly active is really one of the big mysteries going on in that heart conflict. I think it's probably quite dorment as we didn't see him at all.
Yeah everyone aside of Kairi and Ven kind of needs the resistance, maybe Riku needs to open up a school... Joking aside DDD did prove that being to emotional and to an extend caring too much can lead to falling to darkness.

Yeah, that's why I tend not to compare them on the premise "who suffers more", they all deserve to be released from this.
Only shows that Ansem was thinking with Sora out of the way he already had the cat in the bag, lol, big mistake indeed.

Yep, in the end, it's practically a huge network of connected hearts, although Sora is stated to be able to make the most out of the connections to his heart until now.
It's certainly possible that this trait got passed down to Sora to some degree from Ventus, as their connection is not only there from shortly after Sora's birth, Data-Naminé in Coded also commented on how special this connection is (probably the deepest Sora might have). The "hands behind head"-posture Sora uses often came definitely from Ven.
Strategical means planning in advance for several steps while tactical means acting and reacting in effective means during a specific situation.
If using a hypothetical sparring match between Sora and Ventus as example, Sora countering Ven's excessive speed by effective blocking and wearing down his stamina would be tactical, while Sora planning in advance to trap Ven somewhere in a corner where he cannot play out his speed advantage even before the match starts would be strategical.
Or in a short real life-metaphor: You use tactic to win one battle, but strategy to try and win the whole war.
Eraqus' heart doesn't even have to do anything actively itself, just by giving advice(and possibly additional power) to Terra it could already play a big part in helping out Terra to hold on longer.
Yes, this situation was also warned about in Coded. Sora was confronted with the pain and torment of those connected to him unprepared and since it's in his nature to try and help he tried to do so without regard for his own safety. Xehanort, Xigbar and Xemnas speculated on this and used it to their own advantage.
True to the importance of connections however (which is also shown by all the "connection"-babbling of Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Lea and Riku during the scene before Riku dives into Sora's heart in Mysterious Tower) Sora's connection with Riku ensured that it would be alright in the end.
Ansem the Wise said Sora needs to follow his heart ("My heart was aching, that's why I kept going."!) in order to rescue those connected to him. So Sora's actions were not actually wrong, he just did them at the worst time possible with the enemy already lurking at the next corner, which Riku realized on the spot and therefore tried to stop him.

Yeah it was obvious that she wasn't able to really tell them what she meant and both kind of ran off before she could explain herself better.
I have the feeling her model student role has led to conflict in their past as well. It's really to bad that by the time she found a way to balance it out with her friendship, it was to late. Well at least she'll get a second chance.

Yeah, they definitely all have a fate worse than death, that I wouldn't wish upon anyone.
That's actually something I'd really like to see, it would give us a really nice interaction between Sora and Aqua. I see her wanting to return to CO as soon as possible to save Ven, so yeah her depression wouldn't last long.
Yeah all reunions will be interesting. But my personal favorite will probably be Aqua and Kairi. Though Sora and Ven's will be particularly interesting considering their bond has existed ever since Sora was born. I think the reunion between Lea and Ven should be funny.
It was even obvious that Aqua herself struggled to find the right words, she couldn't explain it better right there because she was torn between what to actually believe.
I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
That's one of the messages of BBS though, that by the time they overcome their deficiencies it's too late. Since the second chance is also a main theme of the series it'll be interesting to see where that leads.

That's why I not only promote more interaction in the respective trios but also across them. In terms of Aqua and Kairi's relationship, I'm wondering if Aqua's spell on her will still have some relevance and if Kairi even remembers her (KH 1 said she lost all her memories from her time in Radiant Garden). Besides Riku-Terra and Roxas-Ven Sora-Ven is the one I'm looking forward to the most.
On Lea and Ven I wonder if that will even be addressed in a major manner. Ven seems to be much more focused on Aqua and Terra while Lea (as shown in DDD) has his interests much more into Roxas and Isa. After all, Lea and Ven only met for like 20 minutes ten years ago. There wasn't even any comment from Axel regarding Roxas' "twin"-looks with Ven.
Although this has the potential to become a very hilarious scene when Lea sees Roxas and Ven together, like in KH 2 when Roxas whipped out two Keyblades in their final fight and he shouted surprised: "Two!?"


Yeah it was risky on Riku's part, but I feel he personally needed to do it that way. I'm pretty sure he did see her as an individual, after all he saw his own replica as an individual as well.
Good point, but on an irrational side, If I knew my being awake would force someone else to be in a coma I'd feel bad about it. I could see Roxas feeling similar especially because he has ties to Sora, sure I doubt that he'd want to switch places.
I don't know if it was they didn't care, they were told this is how it's suppose to be. I see that as thre reason to why Namine went back to Kairi, she felt that's how it was suppose to be.
Yeah it's iffy, but if he'd been rational he'd have realized himself that he shouldn't just rush in.
Yes, that's another thing Xemnas and Xigbar had everyone fooled, well excepts Ansem who wouldn't accept it.
Good point about the Riku Replica.
Yeah, that's maybe how you would react but Roxas was clearly in a very different mindset at that time. Unlike Sora, who is nearly unanimously selfless, Roxas can be rightfully selfish in some situations and "his ties to Sora" annoyed and angered him more than anything else before he came to terms with his unavoidable fate. He wanted to know why he had the Keyblade and where he came from, his origins, nothing more. Returning to his origins were certainly not on his agenda due to his strong sense for independence.
Naminé's case is a bit more complicated due to her constant low self-esteem (she didn't have such a strong drive and desire to be independent as Roxas had) and feelings of guilt about all the suffering she had inadvertently caused, so it was in part a form of atonement that she choose to disappear. The other part was that, as described in the Secret Ansem Reports in KH 2, Naminé was, existence-wise, even less than a Nobody and thus her existence was fragile and unstable to begin with.
In the very end, both her and Roxas' fates were unavoidable because their current existences couldn't be reasonably maintained in the long run (and in Roxas' case there has to be added the unknown implications this would have meant for Ventus), that's what makes the issue so tragic.
That's however just how Roxas' nature is. One of his traits is that he tends to react to emotional pain with no source of comfort in range by lashing out in anger, and having a short temper in general is another. ;)
Funny thing is, Xemnas and Xigbar also fooled much of the players and audience, even if there were some parts of the fandom who didn't buy the "Nobodies have no hearts"-propaganda from the beginning.


Well he could still have not excepted it, wouldn't have changed anything, but still he'd have the option not to come to terms with it.
Yeah I guess you're right. I always believed that as KH2's ending suggested that he and Namine were still somewhat awake... This makes their scene in TWTNW kinda meaningless, seeing it wasn't true, unless their dreams can connect. I wonder if he and Xion can interact?
Well prison is a little extreme it's not like he's imprisoning them 2/3 of the hearts came to him willingly.
Yeah, personally I see her now being on Yen Sid's level of importance, so still important but not that important. Hm, I wouldn't mind if she'd become his apprentice/assistant after all she was a "witch" so it would kind of fit.
As I stated above he definitely saw more in her than a puppet. Yeah I guess you're right, Riku never was really good at showing how he feels so it's very likely.
Yeah, she probably hand waved her emotions away with the simple fact that she is special. Yeah it would seem so, seeing even Yen Sid thought they had no hearts.
Well it's not like the being that is Roxas has dissapeared, he's just sleeping in Sora's heart waiting to be awaken.

Well I'm sure the Org. would have wanted him to do something against them, but yeah on a personal level they were no threat to him.
Yeah it's been a long time since I saw those scennes so I forgot what they said in them. But yeah that would make sense. I'd also suspect that Riku personally didn't want anything to happen to Namine.
Let's hope Xion's wish is granted in KH3.

I'd say they even failed in KH2 to be honest. Yeah it wouldn't be right for them to focus to strongly on her, but I wouldn't mind if she were the deuteragonist or tritagonist of KH3's story.
Let's hope the next saga is more generous to our female heroes.

Yeah we seem to make a lot of these. They're fun but take forever to responed to. Also such long posts knock Firefoxes spellcheck out.

In a way, Roxas actually didn't accept it for a long time even after the fusion with Sora happened, the point where he fully accepted it came only after his fight with Sora, when he finally realized why Sora was "chosen".
At that time, their consciousness was still awake, but Axel's statements and what we learned after KH 2 in Blank Points (those sleeping in sadness, Birth by Sleep) and the events/chronicles in DDD show that they wouldn't remain awake.
The scene in TWTNW was mainly symbolic as to Naminé keeping her promise that they would meet again and Roxas taking note of that they still recognize each other in their own forms because of their memories (which remain separate from Sora's and Kairi's, unlike say, Axel's and Lea's as we see in DDD). Well, Yen Sid did say that one dream can connect to another, so that cannot be ruled out, as dreams happen while you sleep. It is actually possible that Roxas and Xion can interact, as in Lea's dream Roxas states that "you promised to always bring us back." and I doubt he was referring to himself and Isa, lol.

It's Xehanort who says this, of course it's extreme and it was also part of Xehanort's plans to mindfuck Sora. I also only stated that the analogy in this isn't completely off the mark, as no matter how you twist it the hearts are trapped there and the current status quo isn't good to maintain in the long run for Sora as well.
On the other side of course Sora's heart is a place that is tons of levels better than, say, the Realm of Darkness or the hearts being lost for good. In Ventus' case, you could even argue that Sora's heart acts more like a sort of hospital and in the end Sora took them all in with the intent to preserve their sense of self and if possible restore them later, much like Joshua took the dreams of Neku, Shiki, Beat and Rhyme to Traverse Town in the hopes of one day restoring their existences.

Considering Naminé role so far I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes a sort of "mission control" and "staying in the base" character later on.
Heh, with that reason for having emotions things were waved away for both Roxas and Naminé for a long time. I remember though after it became evident that Roxas carried Ven's heart, there was a theory out there that Ven's heart might have been broken another time when Sora sacrificed himself in KH 1 and both Roxas and Naminé got a piece of Ven's heart granting them both true emotions (and explaining Naminé's gold blonde hair, as Ven is also a gold blond and heart dictates the appearance).

It's even more perfidious than that, as Nobodies having no hearts isn't even the lie from Xemnas and Xigbar, as that is actually true at the beginning.
What Xemnas and Xigbar camouflaged was that this state is not permanent and Nobodies can gain a new heart over time.

After re-reading another snippet from the BBS Ultimania, I think the main part of this misunderstanding is what "ceased to exist" means in the KH Universe. Nomura stated that "Birth by Sleep" would allow those characters who have already disappeared from the world calling Sora's name to return, and that even Aqua fits into that role. One might think huh? But Aqua isn't sleeping, she only changed realms. But that's the whole point: "Ceasing to exist" in context of the KH Universe means not being present in the physical world, aka the Realm of Light/"the world", so Naminé's statement of "you won't disappear" is a lie and the truth at the same time, the first in relation to a physical existence within the world and the second in relation to the sense of self/spirit/essence/being or whatever you want to call it.

In that case Axel would also surely have obeyed.
If Roxas and Naminé get it I see no justification why Xion shouldn't get her second chance as well.

Considering the already big cast of characters we have Square needs to pay more attention to distribute the spotlight and attention to them more evenly anyways. That you can handle a large cast has already been proven several times, examples I can recall on the spot being Final Fantasy VI and IX.

You can certainly give me a run for my money in this regard, lol. That's why I save them until last. ;P
No surprise, *ggg*.

They are the same thing, yes.


There's your fun tip of the day, folks.

The words even use the same kanji, only in reverse order.
Seppuku is mostly only used in writing form while Harakiri is used when speaking.

The Keyblade of Heart unlocks a heart which releases the darkness inside, creating a Heartless.

Semantics but thought that should be cleared up nonetheless.

Thanks, I'm all for easier understanding. ;)
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Edit: I hard time trying to fix this post. now this is/was a monster... Never use Google docs to write anything in this forum...

I doubt it will be less monstrous this time. *ggg*.

Yep, he's even sort of a sadist partly enjoying all the misery he causes. We don't even need a horrific example in detail, just looking at his devilish smirk when he sets Isa on to attack Lea in the finale of DDD or when he admits that he damaged Ven's heart on purpose in BBS is enough.

Ok, there's your explanation there for Riku's case then.
That depends solely on how the next villain is developed and portrayed, he/she doesn't have to be necessarily to be a mastermind and strategic genius like Xehanort was. It can be a total different type of villain, although I am not referring to his primary element in this case like Alan is mainly focused on.

His attitude in DDD in general showed pretty clearly he didn't really care about what he did.

Well the best thing would be that they're a different kind of threat than Xehanort was. This would be an interesting conversation but we’re sadly in the wrong thread to talk about it...

Yeah, that's why I tend not to compare them on the premise "who suffers more", they all deserve to be released from this.
Only shows that Ansem was thinking with Sora out of the way he already had the cat in the bag, lol, big mistake indeed.

Makes sense.
In a way this also show us just how strong the bond between Riku and Kairi must have been.

Yep, in the end, it's practically a huge network of connected hearts, although Sora is stated to be able to make the most out of the connections to his heart until now.
It's certainly possible that this trait got passed down to Sora to some degree from Ventus, as their connection is not only there from shortly after Sora's birth, Data-Naminé in Coded also commented on how special this connection is (probably the deepest Sora might have). The "hands behind head"-posture Sora uses often came definitely from Ven.
Strategical means planning in advance for several steps while tactical means acting and reacting in effective means during a specific situation.
If using a hypothetical sparring match between Sora and Ventus as example, Sora countering Ven's excessive speed by effective blocking and wearing down his stamina would be tactical, while Sora planning in advance to trap Ven somewhere in a corner where he cannot play out his speed advantage even before the match starts would be strategical.
Or in a short real life-metaphor: You use tactic to win one battle, but strategy to try and win the whole war.
Eraqus' heart doesn't even have to do anything actively itself, just by giving advice(and possibly additional power) to Terra it could already play a big part in helping out Terra to hold on longer.
Yes, this situation was also warned about in Coded. Sora was confronted with the pain and torment of those connected to him unprepared and since it's in his nature to try and help he tried to do so without regard for his own safety. Xehanort, Xigbar and Xemnas speculated on this and used it to their own advantage.
True to the importance of connections however (which is also shown by all the "connection"-babbling of Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Lea and Riku during the scene before Riku dives into Sora's heart in Mysterious Tower) Sora's connection with Riku ensured that it would be alright in the end.
Ansem the Wise said Sora needs to follow his heart ("My heart was aching, that's why I kept going."!) in order to rescue those connected to him. So Sora's actions were not actually wrong, he just did them at the worst time possible with the enemy already lurking at the next corner, which Riku realized on the spot and therefore tried to stop him.

Well we do see him draw strength from his connections. This actually terrified Xigbar to an extent. It seems that when Sora fights even if he might seem alone, he never truly fights alone.
I think lots of little traits from Ventus found their way into Sora, which makes sense seeing they shared such a strong bond for so many years. I’m really interested how this strong bond will play out once both of them can roam the realm of light freely.
Ok, thanks for the explanation. I think I get it now.
In order for him to be able to give advice his heart would have to be active, he can’t really do that if he’s in a coma like Ven. Though I don’t really think it’s possible to compare Xehanort’ heart conflict with Sora’s heart harboring.
Well it’s hard to really prepare yourself for something like that.
Sora does need to follow his heart like Ansem said, but I don’t think he should do it alone, all that pain and torment shouldn’t is too much for just one person. I believe that if he wants to do it, he needs to do it with his friend, so that they can share the pain. So in other word I don’t think it was just a bad time to do it, but also the wrong way to approach it.

It was even obvious that Aqua herself struggled to find the right words, she couldn't explain it better right there because she was torn between what to actually believe.
I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
That's one of the messages of BBS though, that by the time they overcome their deficiencies it's too late. Since the second chance is also a main theme of the series it'll be interesting to see where that leads.

That's why I not only promote more interaction in the respective trios but also across them. In terms of Aqua and Kairi's relationship, I'm wondering if Aqua's spell on her will still have some relevance and if Kairi even remembers her (KH 1 said she lost all her memories from her time in Radiant Garden). Besides Riku-Terra and Roxas-Ven Sora-Ven is the one I'm looking forward to the most.
On Lea and Ven I wonder if that will even be addressed in a major manner. Ven seems to be much more focused on Aqua and Terra while Lea (as shown in DDD) has his interests much more into Roxas and Isa. After all, Lea and Ven only met for like 20 minutes ten years ago. There wasn't even any comment from Axel regarding Roxas' "twin"-looks with Ven.
Although this has the potential to become a very hilarious scene when Lea sees Roxas and Ven together, like in KH 2 when Roxas whipped out two Keyblades in their final fight and he shouted surprised: "Two!?"

Yes with the second chance this might actually play out nicely or they could have new problems in their relationship that they have to overcome, either way this will be fun to watch unfold.

My feeling regarding this are mixed. I kind of feel we need to have a better understanding about the relationships within the trios themselves first, but at the same time I really want to see the all the trios interact.
I don’t think Kairi currently remembers Aqua, but she might remember her if she sees her again. But it’s hard to tell seeing it was a natural memory loss and not some magical one. I also think this relationship could be a very nice one and maybe a chance to see a similar relationship we’ve seen between the two boys of each group, especially considering how Aqua commented on it in BBS.
Yeah the others you mentioned are also ones I’m looking forward to, it’s just that the female characters have had so little development when it comes to relationship and interaction in general that I’m actually interested in seeing how they’d approach such a relationship.
The Lea & Ven reunion will probably not really be addressed, aside for maybe comedy purpose. Though I do believe that while Lea forgot about Ven, because it has been 11 years and they only knew each other for a short time, Ven might still remember Lea, depending on how much time past for him.
I’d love such a callback to KH2. But I could imagine it becoming very confusing for them.

Good point about the Riku Replica.
Yeah, that's maybe how you would react but Roxas was clearly in a very different mindset at that time. Unlike Sora, who is nearly unanimously selfless, Roxas can be rightfully selfish in some situations and "his ties to Sora" annoyed and angered him more than anything else before he came to terms with his unavoidable fate. He wanted to know why he had the Keyblade and where he came from, his origins, nothing more. Returning to his origins were certainly not on his agenda due to his strong sense for independence.
Naminé's case is a bit more complicated due to her constant low self-esteem (she didn't have such a strong drive and desire to be independent as Roxas had) and feelings of guilt about all the suffering she had inadvertently caused, so it was in part a form of atonement that she choose to disappear. The other part was that, as described in the Secret Ansem Reports in KH 2, Naminé was, existence-wise, even less than a Nobody and thus her existence was fragile and unstable to begin with.
In the very end, both her and Roxas' fates were unavoidable because their current existences couldn't be reasonably maintained in the long run (and in Roxas' case there has to be added the unknown implications this would have meant for Ventus), that's what makes the issue so tragic.
That's however just how Roxas' nature is. One of his traits is that he tends to react to emotional pain with no source of comfort in range by lashing out in anger, and having a short temper in general is another. ;)
Funny thing is, Xemnas and Xigbar also fooled much of the players and audience, even if there were some parts of the fandom who didn't buy the "Nobodies have no hearts"-propaganda from the beginning.

See I interpreted his source of anger came from not knowing who Sora was, what his relationship to him was and because no one was giving him any answers on this subject. So for me it had less to do with him disliking his connection to Sora, but more the circumstances connected to this connection. But yes, Roxas liked his independence and didn’t want to give it up, I think that even in this regards Sora would be similarly “selfish”, though still more likely to agree. I think Roxas would still care to an extent just not enough to want to give up everything he had.
Yeah Namine definitely did approach this from another angle. Like you said she didn’t have a drive to be independent, though unlike him and Xion she was already born quite different from her original Kairi and therefore didn’t have to fight as much for an independent identity. But yes her low self-esteem and her guilt probably didn’t help her desire to be her own person. But we don’t really know if her existence was more fragile than an ordinary Nobody’s, nor do we know what effects the existence of a nobody has on the realm of light in general. The information on her again come from someone who’s quite bias about Nobodies, so we have even less to go on when it comes to Namine, who even he didn’t quite know what she was.
Yeah, well Roxas’ fate was kind of unavoidable if Sora was to wake up, but Namine’s wasn’t really necessary, after all Kairi was fine without Namine and didn’t seem to be missing anything.
Yes one of Roxas’ main traits shown is that he’s short tempered when he doesn’t understand an emotional situation and has no one to talk about it with, but we’ve also seen a caring side to him.

Well you can’t really blame people for believing them, we didn’t have all that much to go on, back than other than that most with emotions were considered special Nobodies. Personally I like to go with the flow of the story and except what I’m told with a grain of salt, after all anyone can be misinformed or bias on the matter.


In a way, Roxas actually didn't accept it for a long time even after the fusion with Sora happened, the point where he fully accepted it came only after his fight with Sora, when he finally realized why Sora was "chosen".
At that time, their consciousness was still awake, but Axel's statements and what we learned after KH 2 in Blank Points (those sleeping in sadness, Birth by Sleep) and the events/chronicles in DDD show that they wouldn't remain awake.
The scene in TWTNW was mainly symbolic as to Naminé keeping her promise that they would meet again and Roxas taking note of that they still recognize each other in their own forms because of their memories (which remain separate from Sora's and Kairi's, unlike say, Axel's and Lea's as we see in DDD). Well, Yen Sid did say that one dream can connect to another, so that cannot be ruled out, as dreams happen while you sleep. It is actually possible that Roxas and Xion can interact, as in Lea's dream Roxas states that "you promised to always bring us back." and I doubt he was referring to himself and Isa, lol.

Hm... I saw it more as him being able to fully accept it after learning, who Sora was and not only after seeing why he was chosen.
The newer things do heavily imply that they too are asleep, but so is Aqua according to Ansem the Wise... after all he did say he and Aqua were waiting for their birth by sleep.
Yeah it does seem that way but it make their joy over being able to see each other on a daily bases kind of a false hope for Sora and Kairi that their Nobodies would be at peace.

That’s true, Yen Sid did say that. I’m pretty sure Roxas and Saix didn’t like each other so, you’re probably right on him not referring to Isa, so he might have remembered Xion.

It's Xehanort who says this, of course it's extreme and it was also part of Xehanort's plans to minddiddly Sora. I also only stated that the analogy in this isn't completely off the mark, as no matter how you twist it the hearts are trapped there and the current status quo isn't good to maintain in the long run for Sora as well.
On the other side of course Sora's heart is a place that is tons of levels better than, say, the Realm of Darkness or the hearts being lost for good. In Ventus' case, you could even argue that Sora's heart acts more like a sort of hospital and in the end Sora took them all in with the intent to preserve their sense of self and if possible restore them later, much like Joshua took the dreams of Neku, Shiki, Beat and Rhyme to Traverse Town in the hopes of one day restoring their existences.

Well yeah. It strikes me that Sora’s Heart has kind of become a place where he save keeps hearts and prevents them from completely disappearing. Sora^s heart is definitely better than the alternatives you’ve listed out. Also if what we saw in DDD was a state they could go to whenever they’d like than they could actually enjoy nice days at the beach, seems unlikely though.

Considering Naminé role so far I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes a sort of "mission control" and "staying in the base" character later on.
Heh, with that reason for having emotions things were waved away for both Roxas and Naminé for a long time. I remember though after it became evident that Roxas carried Ven's heart, there was a theory out there that Ven's heart might have been broken another time when Sora sacrificed himself in KH 1 and both Roxas and Naminé got a piece of Ven's heart granting them both true emotions (and explaining Naminé's gold blonde hair, as Ven is also a gold blond and heart dictates the appearance).

It's even more perfidious than that, as Nobodies having no hearts isn't even the lie from Xemnas and Xigbar, as that is actually true at the beginning.
What Xemnas and Xigbar camouflaged was that this state is not permanent and Nobodies can gain a new heart over time.

Yeah it would seem like a natural progression for her character. I’d also like it if she embraced the “witch” side or it would be an interesting development if she became somewhat of an oracle.
Yeah, but I remember many also thought alone because they were special that they had hearts.
I personally feel the blond hair strongly point to his involvement on some level. Though her bright color scheme could also be a reference to her connection to Kairi’s bright light.

After re-reading another snippet from the BBS Ultimania, I think the main part of this misunderstanding is what "ceased to exist" means in the KH Universe. Nomura stated that "Birth by Sleep" would allow those characters who have already disappeared from the world calling Sora's name to return, and that even Aqua fits into that role. One might think huh? But Aqua isn't sleeping, she only changed realms. But that's the whole point: "Ceasing to exist" in context of the KH Universe means not being present in the physical world, aka the Realm of Light/"the world", so Naminé's statement of "you won't disappear" is a lie and the truth at the same time, the first in relation to a physical existence within the world and the second in relation to the sense of self/spirit/essence/being or whatever you want to call it.

In that case Axel would also surely have obeyed.
If Roxas and Naminé get it I see no justification why Xion shouldn't get her second chance as well.

I think even in universe the meaning can vary from character to character depending on their interpretation of the terme. Also I think in this case it would be safe to say ceasing to exist in the realm of light. Seeing the realm of darkness is just as physical as the realm of light.
I have the feeling Namine ment the later with her statement, she didn’t seem like someone who’d purposely lie to Roxas in that situation.

Not really seeing it was the time he went sorta rouge and didn’t report back. Also he didn’t actively get the order to capture Namine and Sora and eliminate Riku and DiZ.
Yeah there isn’t any reason I just wonder if anyone will remember her when she returns. It seems Roxas might.

Considering the already big cast of characters we have Square needs to pay more attention to distribute the spotlight and attention to them more evenly anyways. That you can handle a large cast has already been proven several times, examples I can recall on the spot being Final Fantasy VI and IX.

You can certainly give me a run for my money in this regard, lol. That's why I save them until last. ;P
No surprise, *ggg*.

I’m not sure the current writing team is up for the task. If they can pull it off great, if not I’d prefer each trio to get it’s own series but keep the trios still connected in some way.

Yeah, but sadly I’m a very slow writer so I tend to take way longer than I should.

I have the feeling I should refresh my KH knowledge, I seem to be forgetting so many details.
 
Last edited:

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Edit: I hard time trying to fix this post. now this is/was a monster... Never use Google docs to write anything in this forum...


His attitude in DDD in general showed pretty clearly he didn't really care about what he did.

Well the best thing would be that they're a different kind of threat than Xehanort was. This would be an interesting conversation but we’re sadly in the wrong thread to talk about it...

Ok, I'll try to be less monstrous this time, let's see if it works.

Yeah, because everyone and everything is just a tool in MX's schemes, he knows no "partners" or equals. I bet even Ansem, Xemnas and Xigbar don't mean anything to him beyond being pawns for his plans.

Indeed, there are so many possibilities that this would become a monster-post in itself.


Makes sense.
In a way this also show us just how strong the bond between Riku and Kairi must have been.

Well we do see him draw strength from his connections. This actually terrified Xigbar to an extent. It seems that when Sora fights even if he might seem alone, he never truly fights alone.
I think lots of little traits from Ventus found their way into Sora, which makes sense seeing they shared such a strong bond for so many years. I’m really interested how this strong bond will play out once both of them can roam the realm of light freely.
Ok, thanks for the explanation. I think I get it now.
In order for him to be able to give advice his heart would have to be active, he can’t really do that if he’s in a coma like Ven. Though I don’t really think it’s possible to compare Xehanort’ heart conflict with Sora’s heart harboring.
Well it’s hard to really prepare yourself for something like that.
Sora does need to follow his heart like Ansem said, but I don’t think he should do it alone, all that pain and torment shouldn’t is too much for just one person. I believe that if he wants to do it, he needs to do it with his friend, so that they can share the pain. So in other word I don’t think it was just a bad time to do it, but also the wrong way to approach it.

That there is/was something between them was also already hinted at the very beginning when Kairi seemed to sense that something was changing within Riku.
Correct, this was also what motivated the Keyblade to return to Sora in KH 1 after Riku took it. Another thing adding to the depth of Sora's connections is also that he sees everyone he meets as their own individual which has a special place not caring about how they came to exist, as evidenced by his stance towards the Riku Replica after he learned about his origins.
On this topic though we cannot clearly say which little traits and quirks (besides the "hands-behind-head"-gesture) Sora got from his deep connection with Ven and which he developed himself during his childhood as we don't know much about Ventus' past as a kid, the only scenes we get to see of him as a 10year-old is when Xehanort sets the Heartless on him.
So to say that every single similar behaviour between Ven during the course of the BBS game itself and Sora is due to their bond is stretching it a bit too much.
Me too, the possibilities with this plot device are very vast, and since unlike an connection with Xehanort, the bond between Sora and Ventus is more of a symbiotic one which looks like both boys can take equal advantage of, it can be used very effectively in the future of the series if handled correctly.
Heck, maybe Sora and Ven can even mentally talk with each other over vast distances when they are both alive and well around?
No issue. ;)

This is correct, so it's more likely that Eraqus' heart just gives Terra a passive power boost. Xehanort's and Terra's/Eraqus heart issue surely can't be compared in terms of effects as Xehanort uses his connection-power exactly the opposite Sora does, to subjugate and torture other hearts. The Terra-Eraqus situation could be compared to the Sora-Kairi situation in KH 1 though.
I see the fault on this also partly on Mickey's and Yen Sid's side, as Mickey remained pretty vague in his letter and while Yen Sid spoke of those people needed to be brought back, they didn't brief Sora on his role in all this in detail.
For example, in the secret ending of Re: Coded Mickey spoke to Yen Sid about that he may have found a clue as to where Ventus' heart is. If he or Yen Sid had told Sora beforehand that he may be harboring hearts of other individuals inside him much of the minddiddlying babbling of Young Xehanort and Xemnas throughout the sleeping worlds (La Cite des Cloches, the Grid etc.) wouldn't have affected him that much as he would already knew about the fact with the hearts, even if he doesn't know all the beings involved.
About sharing the pain that was pretty much the solution Data-Sora and Data-Naminé figured out for this in Coded, but since Riku and Sora were separated at the very beginning of DDD this couldn't work. Not to mention that this important piece of Info found by Data-Sora apparently was not told to the real Sora as well.
That Sora's heart endured the combined pain of Xion, Naminé, Roxas and Ven as long as it did during DDD is already a testament to its strength, although when Sora experienced Roxas' pain it shook him very deeply, also evidenced by his angry outcry afterwards.
This makes me think if Xion and Roxas disappearing and having such a shitty life wasn't also at least partly engineered by Xehanort in order to give more impact when trying to weaken Sora's heart as I'm pretty sure that Sora's heart could have handled Ventus' pain, despite its severity, if it had been the only tormented heart to be considered.


Yes with the second chance this might actually play out nicely or they could have new problems in their relationship that they have to overcome, either way this will be fun to watch unfold.

My feeling regarding this are mixed. I kind of feel we need to have a better understanding about the relationships within the trios themselves first, but at the same time I really want to see the all the trios interact.
I don’t think Kairi currently remembers Aqua, but she might remember her if she sees her again. But it’s hard to tell seeing it was a natural memory loss and not some magical one. I also think this relationship could be a very nice one and maybe a chance to see a similar relationship we’ve seen between the two boys of each group, especially considering how Aqua commented on it in BBS.
Yeah the others you mentioned are also ones I’m looking forward to, it’s just that the female characters have had so little development when it comes to relationship and interaction in general that I’m actually interested in seeing how they’d approach such a relationship.
The Lea & Ven reunion will probably not really be addressed, aside for maybe comedy purpose. Though I do believe that while Lea forgot about Ven, because it has been 11 years and they only knew each other for a short time, Ven might still remember Lea, depending on how much time past for him.
I’d love such a callback to KH2. But I could imagine it becoming very confusing for them.
This is why I would love if they carry the whole cast over into the next saga, there's so much potential for all the main characters to interact with each other and see them having grown from their horrific experiences with Xehanort's schemes.

With good writing both could be accomplished at the same time, but knowing the KH staff's record on good writing, that probably won't end too well.
That's the point, Kairi forgot all that by herself, which is reasonable since it happened all during her early childhood, same going for Riku and Sora, although Riku remembering his secret promise with Terra is an exception.
Sora only remembered his encounter with Aqua when he was in his deepest dreams in DDD, after he felt the pain of Ventus' heart.
That comment from Aqua in BBS was more like a small jab at the fanbase, lol.
It's true though that the series itself lacks quite some girl to girl relationships, I think the most we saw were those small bits between Kairi and Olette as well as Aerith and Yuffie.
Yeah, that's what I'm expecting as well since this scene in BBS served mainly only for two things: 1) giving Ventus more insight on his so far rather simplistic views on friendship and b) fanservice for Axel- and Organisation XIII-fans.
Lea and Ventus never had a real deep relationship, at least not as deep as Lea had with Isa or Roxas, or Ventus has with Terra and Aqua. Heck, even Ventus' relationship with Hercules and Zack Fair was portrayed deeper and more memorable than the short bit he had with Lea.
Depending on how things play out, I could even imagine that Roxas and Ventus would get some fun out of confusing people later on.
Then still, in DDD it took Riku, who does not know both of them personally very close, only moments to differentiate Ventus from Roxas.
Speaking of this, I like how Jesse McCartney voices them both with different shades and tones, which is also shown very nicely in that beach scene in DDD.

See I interpreted his source of anger came from not knowing who Sora was, what his relationship to him was and because no one was giving him any answers on this subject. So for me it had less to do with him disliking his connection to Sora, but more the circumstances connected to this connection. But yes, Roxas liked his independence and didn’t want to give it up, I think that even in this regards Sora would be similarly “selfish”, though still more likely to agree. I think Roxas would still care to an extent just not enough to want to give up everything he had.
Yeah Namine definitely did approach this from another angle. Like you said she didn’t have a drive to be independent, though unlike him and Xion she was already born quite different from her original Kairi and therefore didn’t have to fight as much for an independent identity. But yes her low self-esteem and her guilt probably didn’t help her desire to be her own person. But we don’t really know if her existence was more fragile than an ordinary Nobody’s, nor do we know what effects the existence of a nobody has on the realm of light in general. The information on her again come from someone who’s quite bias about Nobodies, so we have even less to go on when it comes to Namine, who even he didn’t quite know what she was.
Yeah, well Roxas’ fate was kind of unavoidable if Sora was to wake up, but Namine’s wasn’t really necessary, after all Kairi was fine without Namine and didn’t seem to be missing anything.
Yes one of Roxas’ main traits shown is that he’s short tempered when he doesn’t understand an emotional situation and has no one to talk about it with, but we’ve also seen a caring side to him.

Well you can’t really blame people for believing them, we didn’t have all that much to go on, back than other than that most with emotions were considered special Nobodies. Personally I like to go with the flow of the story and except what I’m told with a grain of salt, after all anyone can be misinformed or bias on the matter.
It is surely a matter of interpretation, although there's also the possibility of both sets of sources being true. The ones you are describing are most likely true for Days, while those I mentioned go more for KH 2.
Statements like "I am ME, nobody else." or "No, my heart belongs to me." show clearly his desire for independence which on another layer also means independence from Sora. He clearly resented at first that Sora was preferred to exist over him, and over that resentment he got only after his fight with Sora.
To differentiate though, I didn't mean that Naminé didn't want to be her own individual on the inside. Her desire to have friends of her own and be with Sora and the others on the islands clearly showed that. Unlike Roxas (and Xion) though she wasn't fighting for it with so much ferocity or openly showing it, which has to do with exactly this low self-esteem and guilt she harbored.
In terms of identity they are all three quite similar though, as they all started with no sense of self at all (due to having no memories) and developed an own over time.
We know that her existence was more fragile because they showed it in the games and talked about it. The secret Ansem reports of KH 2 dedicate several paragraphs which talk about Naminé nature and during the later parts of KH 2 she was constantly blinking in and out of existence, due to her unstable existence as a whole.
Yeah, Kairi may have been fine but Naminé wasn't. Unlike Roxas, who had a stable existence and could have co-existed with Sora just fine (again, disregarding Ven's heart in the mix) without the memory-coma-mess, Naminé didn't even have a body as noted by Ansem the Wise. She was "nothing" in the very sense of the word and her newly grown heart being stored inside Kairi might actually actually be a good thing since it's safe there and can (as we know by now) possibly be reborn as a true full existence.

In that situation though, Roxas had no reason at all to be in his caring mode. :p


Hm... I saw it more as him being able to fully accept it after learning, who Sora was and not only after seeing why he was chosen.
The newer things do heavily imply that they too are asleep, but so is Aqua according to Ansem the Wise... after all he did say he and Aqua were waiting for their birth by sleep.
Yeah it does seem that way but it make their joy over being able to see each other on a daily bases kind of a false hope for Sora and Kairi that their Nobodies would be at peace.

That’s true, Yen Sid did say that. I’m pretty sure Roxas and Saix didn’t like each other so, you’re probably right on him not referring to Isa, so he might have remembered Xion.
That would contradict his statements though, as even after Naminé finally told him who Sora is he still became angry after regaining all his true memories, trashing the computer and trying to cut down DiZ while screaming that his heart belongs only to him.
Yeah, and Nomura did the same, which implies that when you are in the Realm of Darkness you're not really awake. This point this further strengthened by this:
Chain of memories said:
Riku: Where am I...

(A man's voice is heard)

Voice: Stay asleep.

Riku: Who's there?!

Voice: You should remain asleep. Here, between light and dark.

Riku: Between...what?

(He gasps)

Riku: The king! Where's the king?! Together we closed the door to darkness.
After that---

Voice: You came drifting here by yourself. You did not have the strength to
overcome the darkness. Or...maybe you were close to it.

Riku: Hmph. As if I'm some kind of demon.

Voice: Hmm. Turn from the light. Shut your eyes. Here blanketed by the
darkness, sleep is safety. Sleep is eternal. But...

and Ansem SoD's explanation in DDD that dreams hold memories, sleep holds dreams and darkness holds sleep.

When I am completely honest I utterly hated that cheesy handwave already back then when KH 2 came out, as I saw both Roxas and Naminé as their own individuals from the very start.

Even if Roxas doesn't remember her face or name, by now (as also shown by Data-Roxas in Coded) he at least remembers that there was someone.


Well yeah. It strikes me that Sora’s Heart has kind of become a place where he save keeps hearts and prevents them from completely disappearing. Sora^s heart is definitely better than the alternatives you’ve listed out. Also if what we saw in DDD was a state they could go to whenever they’d like than they could actually enjoy nice days at the beach, seems unlikely though.



Yeah it would seem like a natural progression for her character. I’d also like it if she embraced the “witch” side or it would be an interesting development if she became somewhat of an oracle.
Yeah, but I remember many also thought alone because they were special that they had hearts.
I personally feel the blond hair strongly point to his involvement on some level. Though her bright color scheme could also be a reference to her connection to Kairi’s bright light.
That's what Ansem the Wise meant with Sora's strong love for others. Sora being so positive and life-affirming is what enables all this, and Ansem's research data is something like an "instruction manual" on how Sora can effectively use that as a sort of reviving power.
Seeing how they only appear for a few seconds and then fade away while Riku is there, I doubt that their sleeping, hurting hearts can reach that place often.

The "witch"-part comes solely from her power over Sora's memories and those who are deeply connected to him, a power which so far had only negative effects on Sora & co. so I wouldn't be surprised if Naminé would not want to use them anymore.
This would show that at least some parts of the fandom were already on the right track way back when KH 2 was new material.
It can really go either way, as Ven being involved in Naminé having golden hair is after all also only a theory.


I think even in universe the meaning can vary from character to character depending on their interpretation of the terme. Also I think in this case it would be safe to say ceasing to exist in the realm of light. Seeing the realm of darkness is just as physical as the realm of light.
I have the feeling Namine ment the later with her statement, she didn’t seem like someone who’d purposely lie to Roxas in that situation.

Not really seeing it was the time he went sorta rouge and didn’t report back. Also he didn’t actively get the order to capture Namine and Sora and eliminate Riku and DiZ.
Yeah there isn’t any reason I just wonder if anyone will remember her when she returns. It seems Roxas might.



I’m not sure the current writing team is up for the task. If they can pull it off great, if not I’d prefer each trio to get it’s own series but keep the trios still connected in some way.

Yeah, but sadly I’m a very slow writer so I tend to take way longer than I should.

I have the feeling I should refresh my KH knowledge, I seem to be forgetting so many details.

This doesn't rule out though that the Realm of Darkness lies in a totally different layer of reality, which would also explain the time there running much slower than in the Realm of Light. No one knows what happens if you are "killed" or get your heart stolen while inside the dark realm, so we cannot make a clear statement on how "physical" this realm is.
It's pretty clear though that in the context of the reports "ceasing to exist" or disappear means losing your presence in the Realms of light and in-between.
That's why I tend to believe as well. Although her lying on purpose could also be interpreted as a way to try and soothe the tension somewhat, as DiZ was pretty much clear on the issue and dismissed Naminé's words as "nonsense".

The reason Axel didn't report back from C.O. was because he was searching like crazy for the Chamber of Waking on Xemnas' orders.
Later on Axel was sent several times more to C.O., sometimes on Xemnas' and sometimes on Saix' orders to search for the chamber.
Remembering her might be one of the conditions to bring her back, but that's speculation since we don't know how the "bringing back" for anyone works yet.

Either that or they would simply go and alternate which trio gets the main focus in each game of a saga. This does not even have to mean another console split.

It's normal with so long posts. ;)

I also haven't all details in my head, but I tend to have the game scripts and most of the interviews always ready to read up things fast.

---

I don't think it really worked...<__<
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Ok, I'll try to be less monstrous this time, let's see if it works.

Yeah, because everyone and everything is just a tool in MX's schemes, he knows no "partners" or equals. I bet even Ansem, Xemnas and Xigbar don't mean anything to him beyond being pawns for his plans.

Indeed, there are so many possibilities that this would become a monster-post in itself.

He probably sees himself just as a pawn as well. In a way we've already seen just that.

Yes indeed, but eventually I would still like to discuss this with you.

That there is/was something between them was also already hinted at the very beginning when Kairi seemed to sense that something was changing within Riku.
Correct, this was also what motivated the Keyblade to return to Sora in KH 1 after Riku took it. Another thing adding to the depth of Sora's connections is also that he sees everyone he meets as their own individual which has a special place not caring about how they came to exist, as evidenced by his stance towards the Riku Replica after he learned about his origins.
On this topic though we cannot clearly say which little traits and quirks (besides the "hands-behind-head"-gesture) Sora got from his deep connection with Ven and which he developed himself during his childhood as we don't know much about Ventus' past as a kid, the only scenes we get to see of him as a 10year-old is when Xehanort sets the Heartless on him.
So to say that every single similar behaviour between Ven during the course of the BBS game itself and Sora is due to their bond is stretching it a bit too much.
Me too, the possibilities with this plot device are very vast, and since unlike an connection with Xehanort, the bond between Sora and Ventus is more of a symbiotic one which looks like both boys can take equal advantage of, it can be used very effectively in the future of the series if handled correctly.
Heck, maybe Sora and Ven can even mentally talk with each other over vast distances when they are both alive and well around?
No issue. ;)

Yes Sora's strong connections were what lead to the Keyblade than truly choosing him over Riku, though Riku's own heart was obviously weakening because of how he was destroying his ties to other people, so that probably helped too. Riku's severed ties were actually a big part of his Story in CoM, if I'm not mistaking.
Yeah, in the end you could go crazy trying to tie in every trait. It's safe to say that because they had presumably similar personalities as children the developed similarly.
On topic of Ven being shown as a 10 year old, I really hope that if they remake BBS for the second HD collection they actually put in a model that looks 10 years old, same goes for the younger Terra and Aqua.
Yes though it is reasonably that ven did affect his development in certain ways.
The possibilities of this bond are certainly a lot. It would be nice if the bond allowed them to draw on each other's strength or communicate. I really hope this doesn't end up being another potential story element that's not properly explored.

This is correct, so it's more likely that Eraqus' heart just gives Terra a passive power boost. Xehanort's and Terra's/Eraqus heart issue surely can't be compared in terms of effects as Xehanort uses his connection-power exactly the opposite Sora does, to subjugate and torture other hearts. The Terra-Eraqus situation could be compared to the Sora-Kairi situation in KH 1 though.
I see the fault on this also partly on Mickey's and Yen Sid's side, as Mickey remained pretty vague in his letter and while Yen Sid spoke of those people needed to be brought back, they didn't brief Sora on his role in all this in detail.
For example, in the secret ending of Re: Coded Mickey spoke to Yen Sid about that he may have found a clue as to where Ventus' heart is. If he or Yen Sid had told Sora beforehand that he may be harboring hearts of other individuals inside him much of the minddiddlying babbling of Young Xehanort and Xemnas throughout the sleeping worlds (La Cite des Cloches, the Grid etc.) wouldn't have affected him that much as he would already knew about the fact with the hearts, even if he doesn't know all the beings involved.
About sharing the pain that was pretty much the solution Data-Sora and Data-Naminé figured out for this in Coded, but since Riku and Sora were separated at the very beginning of DDD this couldn't work. Not to mention that this important piece of Info found by Data-Sora apparently was not told to the real Sora as well.
That Sora's heart endured the combined pain of Xion, Naminé, Roxas and Ven as long as it did during DDD is already a testament to its strength, although when Sora experienced Roxas' pain it shook him very deeply, also evidenced by his angry outcry afterwards.
This makes me think if Xion and Roxas disappearing and having such a shitty life wasn't also at least partly engineered by Xehanort in order to give more impact when trying to weaken Sora's heart as I'm pretty sure that Sora's heart could have handled Ventus' pain, despite its severity, if it had been the only tormented heart to be considered.

Yeah, I also see it as more likely that it's more a power boost than anything else.
That's one of the things that makes Xehanort such a good opposite of Sora. They tend to have thing that are similar but pretty much the opposite of each other.
I don't really think the Sora-Kairi situation is necessarily the same as Terra-Eraqus, after all Kairi seemed quite active while in Sora's heart. I'm not even sure if she was asleep like the others, she seems quite awake to me.
Well seeing they weren't expecting anything to happen during the exam, I kinda think I know why they wanted to wait. It definitely wasn't the best thing to do though, but I guess they didn't want Sora to be distracted during his exam by all that was going on.
That's true, but now that everyone's back together they can try to do it again and this time he wouldn't need to be alone. I do find it odd that they didn't quite deliver what the Data-Sora and Data-Namine found out.
Sora's Heart has proven that it's pretty strong to be able to endure that, but as we saw even he had his limit. I wouldn't be surprised if Xehanort had done that as a backup plan, seeing he has a backup plan for everything.

This is why I would love if they carry the whole cast over into the next saga, there's so much potential for all the main characters to interact with each other and see them having grown from their horrific experiences with Xehanort's schemes.

With good writing both could be accomplished at the same time, but knowing the KH staff's record on good writing, that probably won't end too well.
That's the point, Kairi forgot all that by herself, which is reasonable since it happened all during her early childhood, same going for Riku and Sora, although Riku remembering his secret promise with Terra is an exception.
Sora only remembered his encounter with Aqua when he was in his deepest dreams in DDD, after he felt the pain of Ventus' heart.
That comment from Aqua in BBS was more like a small jab at the fanbase, lol.
It's true though that the series itself lacks quite some girl to girl relationships, I think the most we saw were those small bits between Kairi and Olette as well as Aerith and Yuffie.
Yeah, that's what I'm expecting as well since this scene in BBS served mainly only for two things: 1) giving Ventus more insight on his so far rather simplistic views on friendship and b) fanservice for Axel- and Organisation XIII-fans.
Lea and Ventus never had a real deep relationship, at least not as deep as Lea had with Isa or Roxas, or Ventus has with Terra and Aqua. Heck, even Ventus' relationship with Hercules and Zack Fair was portrayed deeper and more memorable than the short bit he had with Lea.
Depending on how things play out, I could even imagine that Roxas and Ventus would get some fun out of confusing people later on.
Then still, in DDD it took Riku, who does not know both of them personally very close, only moments to differentiate Ventus from Roxas.
Speaking of this, I like how Jesse McCartney voices them both with different shades and tones, which is also shown very nicely in that beach scene in DDD.

I agree. I definitely want them to make it into the next saga so we can properly explore all the relationships they have and see them grow.

Yeah the good writing part kind of got me worried. It’s not like the writing in the series has been terrible, but it's obvious it's not as good as it could be. I just hope we see the characters develop decently over the course of the next saga, which will probably also extend the cast even more making it even harder to do.
I think the reason Riku remembered it was because it was very important to him back then and you tend to remember those kind of things longer. Though as you have pointed out in the KH Mythos Memories are immortal and Namine has said no memory is truly lost, so it wouldn't surprise me, if Kairi does remember Aqua after she sees her.
Yeah you're probably right. We definitely need to get more interaction between our girls, I'd really like to see a strong relationship form between two of them.
Well I think it also served to be a call forward to Axel and Roxas' relationship and to show us what kind of friendship Lea and Isa had.
I can see them getting mixed up by others as a running gag in the series.
Yes he does a great job with their voices, but I like his involvement in the series more for him unofficially announcing the games localization.

It is surely a matter of interpretation, although there's also the possibility of both sets of sources being true. The ones you are describing are most likely true for Days, while those I mentioned go more for KH 2.
Statements like "I am ME, nobody else." or "No, my heart belongs to me." show clearly his desire for independence which on another layer also means independence from Sora. He clearly resented at first that Sora was preferred to exist over him, and over that resentment he got only after his fight with Sora.
To differentiate though, I didn't mean that Naminé didn't want to be her own individual on the inside. Her desire to have friends of her own and be with Sora and the others on the islands clearly showed that. Unlike Roxas (and Xion) though she wasn't fighting for it with so much ferocity or openly showing it, which has to do with exactly this low self-esteem and guilt she harbored.
In terms of identity they are all three quite similar though, as they all started with no sense of self at all (due to having no memories) and developed an own over time.
We know that her existence was more fragile because they showed it in the games and talked about it. The secret Ansem reports of KH 2 dedicate several paragraphs which talk about Naminé nature and during the later parts of KH 2 she was constantly blinking in and out of existence, due to her unstable existence as a whole.
Yeah, Kairi may have been fine but Naminé wasn't. Unlike Roxas, who had a stable existence and could have co-existed with Sora just fine (again, disregarding Ven's heart in the mix) without the memory-coma-mess, Naminé didn't even have a body as noted by Ansem the Wise. She was "nothing" in the very sense of the word and her newly grown heart being stored inside Kairi might actually actually be a good thing since it's safe there and can (as we know by now) possibly be reborn as a true full existence.

In that situation though, Roxas had no reason at all to be in his caring mode. :p

Well there's no denying the fact that he didn't like being called Sora or being seen as Sora's shadow. Sora also didn't seem to like being called Roxas.
Namine is somewhat of a special case if you ask me, seeing we don't really know what her 23 days were like between her birth and Sora's arrivel. So we don't know just how Zombie like she was.
Well her fading always stroke me as having more to do whit her being so close to her original that she was starting to reunite with Kairi. Though as you said she was litterly made out of nothing so it would make sense for her to be fragile and need to return to Kairi to keep herself safe.

That's true...

That would contradict his statements though, as even after Naminé finally told him who Sora is he still became angry after regaining all his true memories, trashing the computer and trying to cut down DiZ while screaming that his heart belongs only to him.
Yeah, and Nomura did the same, which implies that when you are in the Realm of Darkness you're not really awake. This point this further strengthened by this:


and Ansem SoD's explanation in DDD that dreams hold memories, sleep holds dreams and darkness holds sleep.

When I am completely honest I utterly hated that cheesy handwave already back then when KH 2 came out, as I saw both Roxas and Naminé as their own individuals from the very start.

Even if Roxas doesn't remember her face or name, by now (as also shown by Data-Roxas in Coded) he at least remembers that there was someone.

I can't believe I forgot these things... Yeah in that sense it actually would make sense to define being in the realm of darkness a form of sleep. It also goes nicely with Aqua's description of her time their: "Endless hours" similarly how a dream can seem to have endless hours.

I kind of bought into it back then... but yeah it didn't really add up to what we saw, and the added scenes in KH2FM actually were hinting strongly that it wasn't really so. It's really too bad that KH2 was rushed like it was.

Yeah. If you think about it Sora actually seemed to know at least a little bit about the pain Xehanort had put her through after he was given Roxas' memories.

That's what Ansem the Wise meant with Sora's strong love for others. Sora being so positive and life-affirming is what enables all this, and Ansem's research data is something like an "instruction manual" on how Sora can effectively use that as a sort of reviving power.
Seeing how they only appear for a few seconds and then fade away while Riku is there, I doubt that their sleeping, hurting hearts can reach that place often.

The "witch"-part comes solely from her power over Sora's memories and those who are deeply connected to him, a power which so far had only negative effects on Sora & co. so I wouldn't be surprised if Naminé would not want to use them anymore.
This would show that at least some parts of the fandom were already on the right track way back when KH 2 was new material.
It can really go either way, as Ven being involved in Naminé having golden hair is after all also only a theory.

Now all they have to do is use this instruction manual properly.
Yeah. But I wonder what it's like for them when they're asleep within his heart.

Yeah, but I'd rather they do something with her unique ability then just give her a keyblade. I wonder where she'll go after she's gotten her own existence. I feel like she'd like to go to the Islands and be with Sora and Riku, but then again she also has ties to the RAX trio which is more based in Twilight Town.
I wonder if Namine's origin and existence will ever truly be explained.

This doesn't rule out though that the Realm of Darkness lies in a totally different layer of reality, which would also explain the time there running much slower than in the Realm of Light. No one knows what happens if you are "killed" or get your heart stolen while inside the dark realm, so we cannot make a clear statement on how "physical" this realm is.
It's pretty clear though that in the context of the reports "ceasing to exist" or disappear means losing your presence in the Realms of light and in-between.
That's why I tend to believe as well. Although her lying on purpose could also be interpreted as a way to try and soothe the tension somewhat, as DiZ was pretty much clear on the issue and dismissed Naminé's words as "nonsense".

The reason Axel didn't report back from C.O. was because he was searching like crazy for the Chamber of Waking on Xemnas' orders.
Later on Axel was sent several times more to C.O., sometimes on Xemnas' and sometimes on Saix' orders to search for the chamber.
Remembering her might be one of the conditions to bring her back, but that's speculation since we don't know how the "bringing back" for anyone works yet.

Either that or they would simply go and alternate which trio gets the main focus in each game of a saga. This does not even have to mean another console split.

It's normal with so long posts. ;)

I also haven't all details in my head, but I tend to have the game scripts and most of the interviews always ready to read up things fast.

---

I don't think it really worked...<__<

That's true, we do know too little about the realm of darkness to really say what it is other then a counterpart to the realm of light. That's why it would be nice if we got a game that truly focused on an adventure in the RoD.
Well I had the impression that he though her trying to make it easier for Roxas in general was nonsense not really what Namine was saying, but I'd probably have to look this up again.

But that kind of makes Saix's questions about Sora and Namine's whereabouts odd, seeing that would imply that he should have brought them back to the castle or something.

Well they could also have spinn-offs on the same console...

:)

Seems like a good idea, though I miss knowing the whole story by heart, though it's become kind of imposible with so many games and interviews... I'll proably start having the stuff ready to look up.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

He probably sees himself just as a pawn as well. In a way we've already seen just that.

Yes indeed, but eventually I would still like to discuss this with you.
If you're referring to MX using Young Xehanort as a pawn to fight Riku, yes, that shows just how utterly disregarding for life MX has become, he doesn't even value his own past as more than a tool to follow his mad plans.

Lol, maybe, yet right now this discussion takes quite some attention as well. ;)


Yes Sora's strong connections were what lead to the Keyblade than truly choosing him over Riku, though Riku's own heart was obviously weakening because of how he was destroying his ties to other people, so that probably helped too. Riku's severed ties were actually a big part of his Story in CoM, if I'm not mistaking.
Yeah, in the end you could go crazy trying to tie in every trait. It's safe to say that because they had presumably similar personalities as children the developed similarly.
On topic of Ven being shown as a 10 year old, I really hope that if they remake BBS for the second HD collection they actually put in a model that looks 10 years old, same goes for the younger Terra and Aqua.
Yes though it is reasonably that ven did affect his development in certain ways.
The possibilities of this bond are certainly a lot. It would be nice if the bond allowed them to draw on each other's strength or communicate. I really hope this doesn't end up being another potential story element that's not properly explored.
It was indeed a crucial point of Riku's story in CoM, as the strength of one's heart seems to be at least partly influenced by the amount and/or the intensity of connections. This would also serve as another explanation to Joshua's line "by ourselves we're no one", meaning a heart completely alone would be very weak and explain further why Sora's heart is nearly always on the top in terms of connection intensity: Sora's connection to Ventus is so deep and intense (since nurtured since his birth), that his heart practically has a sort of "level-bonus" in terms of strength already with it.
Similarity is however the keyword, as there are still several things that are unique to both Sora and Ventus. One first glaring difference would be surely their childhoods, as Sora had a totally fine childhood without any negative influences, while Ven had actually a pretty crappy one.
Well, at least on Ven's model they did some changes in order to make him look more frail and child-like in the flashbacks by removing his shoulder armor and the criss-crossing straps on his chest. Aqua's and Terra's models looked exactly the same despite this all happening four years earlier.
Only in some areas though, as Nomura confirmed that Sora didn't inherit anything "special" from Ven. Such small quirks like the "hands behind head"-gesture or their eyes (while several characters in KH have blue eyes, Sora's and Ven's are completely identical even in the shade of the color) are obvious though.
Although several plot elements that had potential ended up being not properly explored, this one could have a chance to get a better treatment since it is tightly linked to the protagonist himself.

Yeah, I also see it as more likely that it's more a power boost than anything else.
That's one of the things that makes Xehanort such a good opposite of Sora. They tend to have thing that are similar but pretty much the opposite of each other.
I don't really think the Sora-Kairi situation is necessarily the same as Terra-Eraqus, after all Kairi seemed quite active while in Sora's heart. I'm not even sure if she was asleep like the others, she seems quite awake to me.
Well seeing they weren't expecting anything to happen during the exam, I kinda think I know why they wanted to wait. It definitely wasn't the best thing to do though, but I guess they didn't want Sora to be distracted during his exam by all that was going on.
That's true, but now that everyone's back together they can try to do it again and this time he wouldn't need to be alone. I do find it odd that they didn't quite deliver what the Data-Sora and Data-Namine found out.
Sora's Heart has proven that it's pretty strong to be able to endure that, but as we saw even he had his limit. I wouldn't be surprised if Xehanort had done that as a backup plan, seeing he has a backup plan for everything.
I would even go so far and claim that at the base Sora's and Xehanort's ability is the same, it's just used vastly different by both of them, which stems from their utterly opposed views on how life and hearts function and what really matters.
As Riku says in one scene in The Grid in DDD: Xehanort is so hellbent and focused on his overall goal that he doesn't care about anything else.
I would have to re-watch the Sora-Kairi scenes after they return from Hollow Bastion when she's restored, although Sora seeing memories and apparitions of her do indicate some sort of activity. But who's to say that isn't the same with Terra and Eraqus? That we do not see/hear anything is explainable by the fact that we only ever get to see the Xehanort/Terra-side of the whole deal, in the Final Episode as well as in Blank Points. Heck, a hint at Eraqus is even in Terra's final battle when we players control the Lingering Will. The force field surrounding the battlefied is made of chains of light, a signature ability Eraqus has.
Considering a primary goal is to bring these people back and Sora's the key to all that, it would have been wiser to inform Sora beforehand of all this before attempting anything else. Instead of babbling about the Keyblade War, which is an ancient event that isn't even that interesting, one of the flashback mementos in DDD of Yen Sid should have been dedicated to explain all the connection-stuff to Sora and about the danger their pain means for his heart. After all, besides revealing that Ansem the Wise hid data inside Sora (which was also not addressed by the authority figures Yen Sid and Mickey) the information of those connected to Sora's heart was the main point of Re: Coded.
Now that everyone's back together time will run short due to Xehanort assembling his new Organisation, not to mention that the main part of the whole issue, Sora, is currently off on his own in the Realm of Sleep.
Yep, Xehanort is literally crazy prepared, so I would not put that past him as well.

I agree. I definitely want them to make it into the next saga so we can properly explore all the relationships they have and see them grow.

Yeah the good writing part kind of got me worried. It’s not like the writing in the series has been terrible, but it's obvious it's not as good as it could be. I just hope we see the characters develop decently over the course of the next saga, which will probably also extend the cast even more making it even harder to do.
I think the reason Riku remembered it was because it was very important to him back then and you tend to remember those kind of things longer. Though as you have pointed out in the KH Mythos Memories are immortal and Namine has said no memory is truly lost, so it wouldn't surprise me, if Kairi does remember Aqua after she sees her.
Yeah you're probably right. We definitely need to get more interaction between our girls, I'd really like to see a strong relationship form between two of them.
Well I think it also served to be a call forward to Axel and Roxas' relationship and to show us what kind of friendship Lea and Isa had.
I can see them getting mixed up by others as a running gag in the series.
Yes he does a great job with their voices, but I like his involvement in the series more for him unofficially announcing the games localization.
That would be the ideal way to go, yes.

Especially when it comes to character development and presentation I noticed the writing for the series lacks quite seriously. There are only three exceptions: Riku, Lea/Axel and Xehanort, who are practically the only characters who are sufficiently developed inside the games alone.
As much as I like/love characters like Ventus, Aqua, Naminé or Roxas, they're all only half developed at best and one third of that development also comes from secondary sources like Ultimanias or in-game reports, but not from actual meaningful screentime in-game.
Especially this is the reason why I would want to drop characters out who aren't part of the three main trios or their closer circle of friends (namely Donald, Goofy, Naminé) in the next saga. If new characters are to be introduced, we need to have some of the older characters step a bit into the background, which would of course also include such characters as Ansem the Wise and nearly all of the ex-Organisation members who aren't Roxas, Axel/Lea and Xion.
I would assume though that it needs more of a trigger than just seeing Aqua, as Kairi forgot her entire lifetime at Radiant Garden, of which the encounter with Aqua was only a minor one over a few minutes. Mickey was also there, and Kairi meeting/seeing Mickey in KH 2 also didn't trigger anything.
While I agree with that, I still think this should have been kept for the new saga or just be handled very cautiously if it really has to be included in KH 3. The danger that Kairi mutates to a spotlight-stealing squad in KH 3 just like Xion was in Days pushing the other characters and important plot points to the side is real, just as real as the danger of her getting another half-assed treatment like in KH 2 because you cannot make up for four games of neglect in one entry.
Call forward or just fanservice? Nomura made it pretty clear from the get go that despite their similarity in appearance, Ventus and Roxas are totally different individuals, so Lea being "friends" with Ven (for about 10 minutes, lol) cannot really be compared to Axel and Roxas. Lea's and Isa's relationship being shown does have some merit though, and that's about the only true story importance I would give that scene for the overall plot.
Pfft, that would also be a nice jab at all the fans who still cannot manage to do that despite them being clearly different from each other.
Y'know, if they would stand beside each other without any clothing and accessoires on (like their wristbands), yea, then I would probably also fail to tell them apart, but otherwise...
I actually like his voice quite a bit, it also takes skill to voice two characters and make their voices sound distinctly different. Corey Burton for example I could hear it out that Yen Sid and Frollo were both voiced by him.

Well there's no denying the fact that he didn't like being called Sora or being seen as Sora's shadow. Sora also didn't seem to like being called Roxas.
Namine is somewhat of a special case if you ask me, seeing we don't really know what her 23 days were like between her birth and Sora's arrivel. So we don't know just how Zombie like she was.
Well her fading always stroke me as having more to do whit her being so close to her original that she was starting to reunite with Kairi. Though as you said she was litterly made out of nothing so it would make sense for her to be fragile and need to return to Kairi to keep herself safe.

That's true...
That's because they both see themselves as independent individuals. In DDD Sora only confirmed with actual spoken words what was implied since KH 2: Roxas is himself, just Roxas, not Sora. The same goes vice-versa for Sora himself.
We do know however that just like Roxas, she didn't get any memory transfer from Kairi, the being she originated from.
Being close to Kairi surely played a role in this as well, as when Roxas came too close to both Sora and Ven in Days (when trying to investigate C.O.) he fainted, yet due to having a more stable existence he didn't start to fade.


I can't believe I forgot these things... Yeah in that sense it actually would make sense to define being in the realm of darkness a form of sleep. It also goes nicely with Aqua's description of her time their: "Endless hours" similarly how a dream can seem to have endless hours.

I kind of bought into it back then... but yeah it didn't really add up to what we saw, and the added scenes in KH2FM actually were hinting strongly that it wasn't really so. It's really too bad that KH2 was rushed like it was.

Yeah. If you think about it Sora actually seemed to know at least a little bit about the pain Xehanort had put her through after he was given Roxas' memories.
These things are also not lying simply around, it's a puzzle that has to be put together.
Yep, it's this feeling Aqua describes: Time is seemingly endless, and yet in "reality" there isn't much time flowing after all.

Indeed, much of the content of the KH 2 Final Mix is actually crucial to the main plot.

When he was given Roxas' memories I was more on the impression that he experienced all the pain Roxas went through his year-long life in a compressed way, adding to the wham-character of it. The small bit when he sees Xion is her pain manifesting, hence his crying, but he doesn't understand anything about it yet, unlike Roxas', to which he even has an angry outburst afterwards.


Now all they have to do is use this instruction manual properly.
Yeah. But I wonder what it's like for them when they're asleep within his heart.

Yeah, but I'd rather they do something with her unique ability then just give her a keyblade. I wonder where she'll go after she's gotten her own existence. I feel like she'd like to go to the Islands and be with Sora and Riku, but then again she also has ties to the RAX trio which is more based in Twilight Town.
I wonder if Namine's origin and existence will ever truly be explained.



That's true, we do know too little about the realm of darkness to really say what it is other then a counterpart to the realm of light. That's why it would be nice if we got a game that truly focused on an adventure in the RoD.
Well I had the impression that he though her trying to make it easier for Roxas in general was nonsense not really what Namine was saying, but I'd probably have to look this up again.

But that kind of makes Saix's questions about Sora and Namine's whereabouts odd, seeing that would imply that he should have brought them back to the castle or something.

Well they could also have spinn-offs on the same console...

:)

Seems like a good idea, though I miss knowing the whole story by heart, though it's become kind of imposible with so many games and interviews... I'll proably start having the stuff ready to look up.

In fact, Sora himself is the onewho needs to learn to use this thing properly, as he's the only one who can do this. Riku is just safekeeping the data until it's needed.
The reports describe it as sleeping in pain and sadness, if that isn't enough of description already I dunno. I remember that when I'm sick and in pain my sleep is certainly not that peaceful, even if I do sleep.

Her powers might be of use when it comes to restore everyone's memories of Xion. She didn't know how during Days, but then she also didn't know about the new hearts-bit, so maybe that'll give her new opportunities.
To be completely honest, I can also imagine Naminé becoming more of a background character in the new saga who won't be featured that heavily anymore.
As for her stay, I can imagine several scenarios. It all depends on which characters are with each other at the end and where Naminé sees her ideal home.
That's one of the topics many people fear that falls over the edge during all the stuff that has to be explained and explored in KH 3.

The question would be if the nature of the RoD would even warrant a true "adventure" as the RoD in general seems pretty bland, only a network of interconnected roots and rocks with Heartless popping up nearly everywhere.
It may serve good as a single level, but I cannot see it carrying a whole game.
That would surely fit DiZ's entire mindset, also with the "there's no power to change your fate." line that he threw at Roxas. From this view (and in the bitter end) Naminé's efforts were nonsense because they didn't help Roxas at all on a substantial level. I guess that's why some fans attributed all this to Naminé only trying to soothe her own bad conscience since she knew fully well that what they were doing was unfair towards Roxas, who didn't want to be forced back where he originated from.

The way Saix asked that sounded more like if they are still under watch, at least in Sora's case.

Except the new PC Browser game there exist no spin-offs in this series so far. ;)

Knowing the entire story at heart so you don't need to look up some things is close to impossible I would say, only a total KH nerd might manage to do this, and even then.
I don't agree with the people who say that the KH story has become too complicated, but I do agree with those who say that it is a strenuous task to get the puzzle pieces for comprehending together because they're spread so much. Especially since you need the Ultimanias and interviews to be able to make full sense of everything.
If you have all the pieces, the story is pretty easy to follow, if you don't however...
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

If you're referring to MX using Young Xehanort as a pawn to fight Riku, yes, that shows just how utterly disregarding for life MX has become, he doesn't even value his own past as more than a tool to follow his mad plans.

Lol, maybe, yet right now this discussion takes quite some attention as well. ;)

Well technically the whole new org qualifies as well seeing they're all versions of him.

Yes that's true.

It was indeed a crucial point of Riku's story in CoM, as the strength of one's heart seems to be at least partly influenced by the amount and/or the intensity of connections. This would also serve as another explanation to Joshua's line "by ourselves we're no one", meaning a heart completely alone would be very weak and explain further why Sora's heart is nearly always on the top in terms of connection intensity: Sora's connection to Ventus is so deep and intense (since nurtured since his birth), that his heart practically has a sort of "level-bonus" in terms of strength already with it.
Similarity is however the keyword, as there are still several things that are unique to both Sora and Ventus. One first glaring difference would be surely their childhoods, as Sora had a totally fine childhood without any negative influences, while Ven had actually a pretty crappy one.
Well, at least on Ven's model they did some changes in order to make him look more frail and child-like in the flashbacks by removing his shoulder armor and the criss-crossing straps on his chest. Aqua's and Terra's models looked exactly the same despite this all happening four years earlier.
Only in some areas though, as Nomura confirmed that Sora didn't inherit anything "special" from Ven. Such small quirks like the "hands behind head"-gesture or their eyes (while several characters in KH have blue eyes, Sora's and Ven's are completely identical even in the shade of the color) are obvious though.
Although several plot elements that had potential ended up being not properly explored, this one could have a chance to get a better treatment since it is tightly linked to the protagonist himself.

Yeah I think in lot of points of the series it's been actually hinted at that the connections one has strengthen one’s heart. I agree that's probably what Joshua was implying with that statement, but I think he's also referring to the fact that as individuals we might be weak but as a group of friends there are almost no limits to what we as people can do.
I'm not sure if Sora's ability came from the bond with Ven or if his ability to form bonds easily is something his heart was born able to do, after all he didn't have that bond when they first met.
Well we don't know much about Ven's childhood before he became Xehanort's apprentice but yeah it's pretty clear that once he became Xehanort’s apprentice his childhood was pretty crappy.
Yeah I really hope that if they make a HD remake they fix that... it was kind of distracting that they looked like they were the same age as during the game.
I find it interesting that they have the same eyes, but seeing they have the same face I shouldn’t be surprised.
I really hope they do explore this plotline, it would be quite a let down if the don’t.

I would even go so far and claim that at the base Sora's and Xehanort's ability is the same, it's just used vastly different by both of them, which stems from their utterly opposed views on how life and hearts function and what really matters.
As Riku says in one scene in The Grid in DDD: Xehanort is so hellbent and focused on his overall goal that he doesn't care about anything else.
I would have to re-watch the Sora-Kairi scenes after they return from Hollow Bastion when she's restored, although Sora seeing memories and apparitions of her do indicate some sort of activity. But who's to say that isn't the same with Terra and Eraqus? That we do not see/hear anything is explainable by the fact that we only ever get to see the Xehanort/Terra-side of the whole deal, in the Final Episode as well as in Blank Points. Heck, a hint at Eraqus is even in Terra's final battle when we players control the Lingering Will. The force field surrounding the battlefied is made of chains of light, a signature ability Eraqus has.
Considering a primary goal is to bring these people back and Sora's the key to all that, it would have been wiser to inform Sora beforehand of all this before attempting anything else. Instead of babbling about the Keyblade War, which is an ancient event that isn't even that interesting, one of the flashback mementos in DDD of Yen Sid should have been dedicated to explain all the connection-stuff to Sora and about the danger their pain means for his heart. After all, besides revealing that Ansem the Wise hid data inside Sora (which was also not addressed by the authority figures Yen Sid and Mickey) the information of those connected to Sora's heart was the main point of Re: Coded.
Now that everyone's back together time will run short due to Xehanort assembling his new Organisation, not to mention that the main part of the whole issue, Sora, is currently off on his own in the Realm of Sleep.
Yep, Xehanort is literally crazy prepared, so I would not put that past him as well.

Yeah, they do probably have the same ability. It would fit how they mirror each other in certain ways.

From their conversation it's not quite clear if she was completely awake or not, though she does remember certain things. It is possible that it's the same with Terra and Eraqus, but because we haven't seen it and up until now we haven't really seen anything like the Kairi-Sora situation again it's hard to tell.
I guess the chain of light barrier could have had something to do with Eraqus’ heart within Terra, though I always just assumed that it had something to do with the fact that Terra had learned from Eraqus and that his barrier therefore reflected that.
Sure it would have been better to tell Sora all the details of what they discovered, but they probably just didn’t think it was necessary at the time or that Sora wasn ready for it. We saw what happened because of their misjudgment, so hopefully they’ve learned from it.
Is he really in the Realm of Sleep? Namura kind of hinted that Travers Town was special and that it was between the realms or something, but yeah it’s sorta a big issue that Sora just took of by himself, kind of puts our heroes at a disadvantage.

That would be the ideal way to go, yes.

Especially when it comes to character development and presentation I noticed the writing for the series lacks quite seriously. There are only three exceptions: Riku, Lea/Axel and Xehanort, who are practically the only characters who are sufficiently developed inside the games alone.
As much as I like/love characters like Ventus, Aqua, Naminé or Roxas, they're all only half developed at best and one third of that development also comes from secondary sources like Ultimanias or in-game reports, but not from actual meaningful screentime in-game.
Especially this is the reason why I would want to drop characters out who aren't part of the three main trios or their closer circle of friends (namely Donald, Goofy, Naminé) in the next saga. If new characters are to be introduced, we need to have some of the older characters step a bit into the background, which would of course also include such characters as Ansem the Wise and nearly all of the ex-Organisation members who aren't Roxas, Axel/Lea and Xion.
I would assume though that it needs more of a trigger than just seeing Aqua, as Kairi forgot her entire lifetime at Radiant Garden, of which the encounter with Aqua was only a minor one over a few minutes. Mickey was also there, and Kairi meeting/seeing Mickey in KH 2 also didn't trigger anything.
While I agree with that, I still think this should have been kept for the new saga or just be handled very cautiously if it really has to be included in KH 3. The danger that Kairi mutates to a spotlight-stealing squad in KH 3 just like Xion was in Days pushing the other characters and important plot points to the side is real, just as real as the danger of her getting another half-assed treatment like in KH 2 because you cannot make up for four games of neglect in one entry.
Call forward or just fanservice? Nomura made it pretty clear from the get go that despite their similarity in appearance, Ventus and Roxas are totally different individuals, so Lea being "friends" with Ven (for about 10 minutes, lol) cannot really be compared to Axel and Roxas. Lea's and Isa's relationship being shown does have some merit though, and that's about the only true story importance I would give that scene for the overall plot.
Pfft, that would also be a nice jab at all the fans who still cannot manage to do that despite them being clearly different from each other.
Y'know, if they would stand beside each other without any clothing and accessoires on (like their wristbands), yea, then I would probably also fail to tell them apart, but otherwise...
I actually like his voice quite a bit, it also takes skill to voice two characters and make their voices sound distinctly different. Corey Burton for example I could hear it out that Yen Sid and Frollo were both voiced by him.

Yeah the writing is quite lacking in those areas, but who knows they might get better at it as the series progresses. But yeah there are only a few characters that are well developed alone in the games without the other stuff adding to it. I think some even went a little backward in character development, such as Sora he’s lost some of his characteristics from KH1 and CoM where he seemed to pick up on things a little better and question things.
I agree that characters like Ansem the Wise and the ex-org members should kind of fade into the background a little, seeing that with this Saga their role in the story will probably come to a close.
Yeah it would probably require for something mirroring the events in BBS to happen for Kairi to remember.
While Mickey was also there, Kairi did spend more time with Aqua and Aqua was the one that really interacted with Kairi, so I’d guess she probably left a bigger mark on her then Mickey. But really it’s hard to tell, after all memories are something tricky.
I agree that it’s probably better to wait for the next Saga to explore the relationship between the girls, because as things are now KH3 already has too many plotlines to address. Yeah it is a real danger, though I personally think it’s more likely they’ll just do what they always do with her and have her off scene for most of the story... I'd really hate that.
They are different individuals, but there are certain parallels, but yes it was probably just as much a fanservice.
Yeah, I don’t get how people can have difficulties to tell them apart, while they're wearing their usual clothes.

That's because they both see themselves as independent individuals. In DDD Sora only confirmed with actual spoken words what was implied since KH 2: Roxas is himself, just Roxas, not Sora. The same goes vice-versa for Sora himself.
We do know however that just like Roxas, she didn't get any memory transfer from Kairi, the being she originated from.
Being close to Kairi surely played a role in this as well, as when Roxas came too close to both Sora and Ven in Days (when trying to investigate C.O.) he fainted, yet due to having a more stable existence he didn't start to fade.



These things are also not lying simply around, it's a puzzle that has to be put together.
Yep, it's this feeling Aqua describes: Time is seemingly endless, and yet in "reality" there isn't much time flowing after all.

Indeed, much of the content of the KH 2 Final Mix is actually crucial to the main plot.

When he was given Roxas' memories I was more on the impression that he experienced all the pain Roxas went through his year-long life in a compressed way, adding to the wham-character of it. The small bit when he sees Xion is her pain manifesting, hence his crying, but he doesn't understand anything about it yet, unlike Roxas', to which he even has an angry outburst afterwards.

Yes they make it quite obvious that they take pride in their own identities and don't like being called by someone else's name.
Well yes but it would seem that she was at least told about her original self, seeing she knew she was Kairi’s Nobody.
Yeah it would seem a Nobody can’t really get too close to it’s original, though Xemnas seems to be an exception to this rule.

Yes it was really important to the story and we still didn’t get it. I really hope now that we’re on a home console, which can add content to the games, they won’t make Final Mixes anymore, even if that means DLCs.

Yeah probably, but I think it’s interesting that most if not all scenes where from KH2’s prolog.
I could Imagine that to be the case with Xion, seeing Sora never named her so he probably didn’t know who she really was.

In fact, Sora himself is the onewho needs to learn to use this thing properly, as he's the only one who can do this. Riku is just safekeeping the data until it's needed.
The reports describe it as sleeping in pain and sadness, if that isn't enough of description already I dunno. I remember that when I'm sick and in pain my sleep is certainly not that peaceful, even if I do sleep.

Her powers might be of use when it comes to restore everyone's memories of Xion. She didn't know how during Days, but then she also didn't know about the new hearts-bit, so maybe that'll give her new opportunities.
To be completely honest, I can also imagine Naminé becoming more of a background character in the new saga who won't be featured that heavily anymore.
As for her stay, I can imagine several scenarios. It all depends on which characters are with each other at the end and where Naminé sees her ideal home.
That's one of the topics many people fear that falls over the edge during all the stuff that has to be explained and explored in KH 3.

Yes, but seeing Sora can't really do it alone his friends will still play an important role.
Which reports describe it that way? I don't really remember reading that...

That would be nice that way she could use her abilities for something good and make a positive experience with her ability.
Well she hasn't really been featured all that heavily ever since CoM her role in Days was important but not really big.
Considering that KH3 has a lot of things it needs to explore and explain it's not an unreasonable fear. But it doesn't have to be explored in KH3, they could explore it in the next saga.

The question would be if the nature of the RoD would even warrant a true "adventure" as the RoD in general seems pretty bland, only a network of interconnected roots and rocks with Heartless popping up nearly everywhere.
It may serve good as a single level, but I cannot see it carrying a whole game.
That would surely fit DiZ's entire mindset, also with the "there's no power to change your fate." line that he threw at Roxas. From this view (and in the bitter end) Naminé's efforts were nonsense because they didn't help Roxas at all on a substantial level. I guess that's why some fans attributed all this to Naminé only trying to soothe her own bad conscience since she knew fully well that what they were doing was unfair towards Roxas, who didn't want to be forced back where he originated from.

The way Saix asked that sounded more like if they are still under watch, at least in Sora's case.

Well I guess it depends on whether or not there's more to the realm than we saw and in what time period the game would take place. If it was during the 10 year gap between BBS and KH it could be interesting to explore the fallen worlds. But I'd actually be happy with just an extended level, as long as we learn more about the realm.
Well it's possible, but I really think she was trying to make it easier for him.

Except the new PC Browser game there exist no spin-offs in this series so far. ;)

Knowing the entire story at heart so you don't need to look up some things is close to impossible I would say, only a total KH nerd might manage to do this, and even then.
I don't agree with the people who say that the KH story has become too complicated, but I do agree with those who say that it is a strenuous task to get the puzzle pieces for comprehending together because they're spread so much. Especially since you need the Ultimanias and interviews to be able to make full sense of everything.
If you have all the pieces, the story is pretty easy to follow, if you don't however...

So far, but who's to say the trios could each carry their own series?

Yeah that's for sure, the days in which one could know it by heart are long over. Well I think they really should start streamlining it so that you can find all the info in the games and don't need to look up the interviews, for us fans it's not a problem to look it up, but for someone who just plays it, it's kind of gotten hard to follow.
Well you don't need all the pieces, you just need enough to understand what's generally going on.
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Why is every single post in this thread an essay? O_O Do you know how long it took me to scroll down to the bottom just to type something lol

So far, but who's to say the trios could each carry their own series?

This could certainly be a good idea, but maybe not till after the Xehanort saga. These could serve as timefillers for the fans while the team works on the next saga's story, holding no real significance, but dropping extremely mysterious secrets and hints at the same time to generate interest in the new saga
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Why is every single post in this thread an essay? O_O Do you know how long it took me to scroll down to the bottom just to type something lol

Sorry about that, we're just in a very deep and long conversation.

This could certainly be a good idea, but maybe not till after the Xehanort saga. These could serve as timefillers for the fans while the team works on the next saga's story, holding no real significance, but dropping extremely mysterious secrets and hints at the same time to generate interest in the new saga

I could see that working well. They could also develop their relationships within these timefillers, giving the fans a better understanding of it.
It would also be an opportunity for them to tell 3 different stories during one Saga, the stories of course would be connected in one way or the other.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Well technically the whole new org qualifies as well seeing they're all versions of him.

Yes that's true.

There's still a difference though since some of the new Org, like Xigbar, Xemnas and Ansem SoD act on Xehanort's behalf on their own will without actually being directly controlled by him.


Yeah I think in lot of points of the series it's been actually hinted at that the connections one has strengthen one’s heart. I agree that's probably what Joshua was implying with that statement, but I think he's also referring to the fact that as individuals we might be weak but as a group of friends there are almost no limits to what we as people can do.
I'm not sure if Sora's ability came from the bond with Ven or if his ability to form bonds easily is something his heart was born able to do, after all he didn't have that bond when they first met.
Well we don't know much about Ven's childhood before he became Xehanort's apprentice but yeah it's pretty clear that once he became Xehanort’s apprentice his childhood was pretty crappy.
Yeah I really hope that if they make a HD remake they fix that... it was kind of distracting that they looked like they were the same age as during the game.
I find it interesting that they have the same eyes, but seeing they have the same face I shouldn’t be surprised.
I really hope they do explore this plotline, it would be quite a let down if the don’t.
Yep, there is even an interesting parallel drawn to that concept regarding the backstory of Ventus in BBS. This is only in the novels and therefore has to be taken with a grain of salt in terms of canon, but there it is said that Ventus was an orphan who never even knew his parents let alone had some friends despite him being a very gentle and kind individual. Thus having no meaningful connections at first this would explain Ven's diffidence, meekness and utter lack of self-confidence as a child. In his reports in the BBS game Xehanort also reflects on the issue that Ventus is almost too benign and kind, to the point that it actually becomes a weakness.
I wasn't actually talking about Sora's ability to bond with other hearts, as this he had from the very beginning, but about the fact that the natural strength of Sora's heart was directly bolstered by forging such a deep connection so very early.
As I said above, there are only small tidbits and hints which are also of ambigious canon quality from the novels (and I haven't yet seen any translations of those parts), but those clearly infer that, unlike Sora with his ball of happiness around the islands, Ventus was a very shy, insecure but gentle little orphan kid who wished to have someone who loves/takes care of him since he didn't even remember the faces of his parents.

Well, they DID replace models in the KH 1.5 HD remake and considering those flashbacks in BBS take place four years before the game, new models would be sufficient here.
Aqua and Terra would be age-wise around 15/16 that time, meaning they should look similar (in physique) to KH 2 Riku and Kairi while Ventus is around 10/11 years old.

It serves to hammer home the extent of their connection, just like with the golden Xehanort eyes only with the difference that neither Sora nor Ven try to control each other, but are treated as equals.
Roxas of course comes also into that area, since he's practically a hybrid of Sora and Ventus with a new heart and identity to boot.

Agreed, I found this plot point to be very endearing after I finished BBS, and it has truly much potential to be expanded upon, also since it's a symbiotic relationship there's practically no pressing reason why either Sora or Ventus would want to break that connection.

Yeah, they do probably have the same ability. It would fit how they mirror each other in certain ways.

From their conversation it's not quite clear if she was completely awake or not, though she does remember certain things. It is possible that it's the same with Terra and Eraqus, but because we haven't seen it and up until now we haven't really seen anything like the Kairi-Sora situation again it's hard to tell.
I guess the chain of light barrier could have had something to do with Eraqus’ heart within Terra, though I always just assumed that it had something to do with the fact that Terra had learned from Eraqus and that his barrier therefore reflected that.
Sure it would have been better to tell Sora all the details of what they discovered, but they probably just didn’t think it was necessary at the time or that Sora wasn ready for it. We saw what happened because of their misjudgment, so hopefully they’ve learned from it.
Is he really in the Realm of Sleep? Namura kind of hinted that Travers Town was special and that it was between the realms or something, but yeah it’s sorta a big issue that Sora just took of by himself, kind of puts our heroes at a disadvantage.
Who knows, maybe Sora can even turn the tables around and do what Xehanort tried in DDD in reverse by aiding some of the controlled 13 darknesses in breaking free of Xehanort's control, effectively foiling his plans.

We haven't seen much about the Terra/Eraqus one, yes, that's the main problem. However, the imagery of Kairi falling through Sora in KH 1 and Eraqus through Terra in BBS is very similar.
These chains are clearly a light power though and except two shotlocks available to all three characters Terra never exhibits any clear light powers.
Yeah, in the end it may show that Yen Sid and Mickey are also only human and make errors, although informing Sora beforehand could have prevented much of Xehanort's scheme in DDD.
Traverse Town is a world of the Realm in-between, yes, so it can be awake or asleep, but this Traverse Town we see there is implied to be the sleeping version, as 1st Sora claims ("I hoped it would still be here!") and 2nd Sora opens a sleeping Keyhole at the end at Mysterious Tower, showing that he indeed has gained the power and during the credits (with the letter-snatching) he dives to that Traverse Town.
He wanted to thank the Dream Eaters, yep, but Goofy implies in the secret ending that he's late, so maybe Sora does actually something more than that, possibly related to those tormented hearts that sleep within him.

Yeah the writing is quite lacking in those areas, but who knows they might get better at it as the series progresses. But yeah there are only a few characters that are well developed alone in the games without the other stuff adding to it. I think some even went a little backward in character development, such as Sora he’s lost some of his characteristics from KH1 and CoM where he seemed to pick up on things a little better and question things.
I agree that characters like Ansem the Wise and the ex-org members should kind of fade into the background a little, seeing that with this Saga their role in the story will probably come to a close.
Yeah it would probably require for something mirroring the events in BBS to happen for Kairi to remember.
While Mickey was also there, Kairi did spend more time with Aqua and Aqua was the one that really interacted with Kairi, so I’d guess she probably left a bigger mark on her then Mickey. But really it’s hard to tell, after all memories are something tricky.
I agree that it’s probably better to wait for the next Saga to explore the relationship between the girls, because as things are now KH3 already has too many plotlines to address. Yeah it is a real danger, though I personally think it’s more likely they’ll just do what they always do with her and have her off scene for most of the story... I'd really hate that.
They are different individuals, but there are certain parallels, but yes it was probably just as much a fanservice.
Yeah, I don’t get how people can have difficulties to tell them apart, while they're wearing their usual clothes.
They either need to take more time fleshing out their scripts or Nomura needs to hire other script writers. Many of Nomura's ideas and concepts are actually pretty good and interesting, but the presentation of those sadly is subpar more often than not.
These characters probably also would realistically return to a more normal life as far as that's possible in the KH universe. Like for example that if in later installments of the series the main party visits Radiant Garden again Ansem the Wise can still be there and talked to for some NPC-chat or making a side-quest, but he won't be a major player in the actual story at hand again.
Oh come on, Mickey's ears are pretty hard to forget, lol.
Yep, and as you mentioned, it's probably also better to wait with the inter-trio relationships (except maybe Terra/Riku and Ventus/Sora due to story reasons) for the next saga as well. I could imagine it being pretty hilarious seeing Roxas interact with Terra and/or Aqua, or Xion and Kairi.
This is why I fear Nomura and his team have maneuvered themselves into an iffy situation by including Kairi into the secret ending of DDD. This awakens expectations on the side of many players, and it is a very precarious balance that they have to create, as using Kairi in the same lackluster manner like in KH 2 could serve to break her character entirely while focusing too much on her that the other important characters get sidelined can result in a situation similar to Xion with Days.
It is manageable to do this right, also considering that I expect KH 3 to be longer and generally bigger in scale than both KH 1 and 2, but I fear that the scriptwriters may not be up to the task.
These parallels are mostly visual form though.
The funny thing is as well that, ever since Ven was introduced, Roxas is seen more often with his black coat than his actual civil clothes, which makes differentiating even easier, even though their civil clothes are already different enough.

Yes they make it quite obvious that they take pride in their own identities and don't like being called by someone else's name.
Well yes but it would seem that she was at least told about her original self, seeing she knew she was Kairi’s Nobody.
Yeah it would seem a Nobody can’t really get too close to it’s original, though Xemnas seems to be an exception to this rule.

Yes it was really important to the story and we still didn’t get it. I really hope now that we’re on a home console, which can add content to the games, they won’t make Final Mixes anymore, even if that means DLCs.

Yeah probably, but I think it’s interesting that most if not all scenes where from KH2’s prolog.
I could Imagine that to be the case with Xion, seeing Sora never named her so he probably didn’t know who she really was.
Exactly, and it further drives home the point about the message that it doesn't matter where you originated, as long as you have your own dreams, memories and feelings, you are an own individual no matter what some self-righteous "scientist" may claim. That is also a trait that Sora exhibited already in KH Chain of Memories when dealing with the Riku Replica.
It's certainly odd that Naminé knew that, as even Riku in KH 2 asks DiZ once just whose person's Nobody Naminé actually is.
Xemnas, much like Roxas, is a special case of several hearts involved in his birth though and he never actually came close to Terra-Xehanort, his original self.

Let's hope the second HD collection remedies that and that both collections actually find their way to Europe. They should just include all story-relevant bits from the get go. DLC is good for additional secret boss fights, equipment or costumes but not main story content (I wouldn't say no to some little side episodes though providing some more character development and interaction).

Maybe that's because those were the most recent and most painful memories Roxas had, although I think I did glimpse some pictures from the Deep Dive fight and Roxas sitting with Axel on the clock tower.
Sora just calls her "that other girl", so he, much like Roxas, probably only knows that there was someone and it involves great pain, but know neither her name nor her actual story and experiences.
After all, Sora got the final realization that Nobodies can grow hearts by experiencing their grief and seeing Axel, Naminé, Roxas and "that other girl" cry real tears, which you can only do if there's a heart.

Yes, but seeing Sora can't really do it alone his friends will still play an important role.
Which reports describe it that way? I don't really remember reading that...

That would be nice that way she could use her abilities for something good and make a positive experience with her ability.
Well she hasn't really been featured all that heavily ever since CoM her role in Days was important but not really big.
Considering that KH3 has a lot of things it needs to explore and explain it's not an unreasonable fear. But it doesn't have to be explored in KH3, they could explore it in the next saga.
Of course, I expect that their main role will most likely be to watch Sora's back and keep Xehanort, Maleficent and the other bad guys off Sora's toes when he's busy bringing back the tormented characters.
Nomura has gone quite a way to convey to us that while it's possible to bring them back, it won't be an easy task and that's what leads me to believe that Sora needs to be clear of having to worry about the worlds or his other friends, which is were Riku, Mickey and Lea would come into play. I'm assuming here that Donald and Goofy would accompany Sora as "bodyguards" during the rescue missions while Mickey, Lea and Riku keep watching the worlds and "hold the line" while Sora is busy and Kairi still "in-training".
I think it was in Coded, but the DDD reports also mention something like it and in one of the flashbacks Yen Sid also talks about it:
"We must lead them out of sorrow and slumber, and back to our world.".

If she retains it, it would be very needed for her to have a positive experience with it, as Naminé using her powers so far only hurt people, mainly Sora, Xion and Roxas.
That's true, Naminé has become somewhat of a handy explanation device in all installments after KH 2 and her role in DDD wasn't really any bigger than Vanitas' or Xion's. When looking at it in overview, I would even say that out of the tormented characters, Roxas was the only one to get a bigger role in DDD.
You mean like some "beings" similar to Naminé being introduced and that being used as a pretext to finally describe the true nature of her first "existence" in the new saga? Possible, although I could also imagine that, if they don't address it in-game during the story that it gets a sort of explanation in KH 3's equivalent of Jiminy's journal.


Well I guess it depends on whether or not there's more to the realm than we saw and in what time period the game would take place. If it was during the 10 year gap between BBS and KH it could be interesting to explore the fallen worlds. But I'd actually be happy with just an extended level, as long as we learn more about the realm.
Well it's possible, but I really think she was trying to make it easier for him.


So far, but who's to say the trios could each carry their own series?

Yeah that's for sure, the days in which one could know it by heart are long over. Well I think they really should start streamlining it so that you can find all the info in the games and don't need to look up the interviews, for us fans it's not a problem to look it up, but for someone who just plays it, it's kind of gotten hard to follow.
Well you don't need all the pieces, you just need enough to understand what's generally going on.
It also depends on if it is important to the story. Unlike Disney worlds, which are often used as filler, original worlds almost always had a deeper purpose to the main plot.
I do however expect a Realm of Darkness level in KH 3 at some point when it is time to save Aqua and Ansem the Wise.
Like said, those are all theories I've read and heard about across the net, my personal opinion is also that Naminé at least tried to be soothing without any selfish background motives.

They wouldn't even need to make entire own series out of it. They could just alternate between the main playable characters and still call it Kingdom Hearts. Bonus points for them if they don't decide on another console hopping spree.

Yup, that's the main improvement I would also advocate, as much of the percieved "not understanding the plot" is simply due to insufficient information which is often only available in Japanese. I bet the Japanese fans are often facepalming about the western fans since they have easier access to all the important info and not just a part.

It would also be an opportunity for them to tell 3 different stories during one Saga, the stories of course would be connected in one way or the other.

That could actually work, also when considering a new threat/antagonist/antagonist faction which actually has the resources to strike at several locations at once. SRK cannot be at several places all at once, so having TAV and RAX tackle different challenges of the same enemy with all of them still working for the same cause could work pretty good.
I could imagine the trios having their own (mostly) independent tales from the others, only connected by occassional meetings (i.e. at Yen Sid's tower or conversations through magic (Sora's and Ven's heart connection maybe, including Roxas to have a link to the third trio?). Only one (or two) games of that saga would actually have all of them in one party, which would be either the first and the last game of the saga or even only the finale.
 
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AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

There's still a difference though since some of the new Org, like Xigbar, Xemnas and Ansem SoD act on Xehanort's behalf on their own will without actually being directly controlled by him.

Well we both know that he'd sacrifice each and everyone of his new Org members in a heart beat, if it gave him some kind of advantage.

Yep, there is even an interesting parallel drawn to that concept regarding the backstory of Ventus in BBS. This is only in the novels and therefore has to be taken with a grain of salt in terms of canon, but there it is said that Ventus was an orphan who never even knew his parents let alone had some friends despite him being a very gentle and kind individual. Thus having no meaningful connections at first this would explain Ven's diffidence, meekness and utter lack of self-confidence as a child. In his reports in the BBS game Xehanort also reflects on the issue that Ventus is almost too benign and kind, to the point that it actually becomes a weakness.
I wasn't actually talking about Sora's ability to bond with other hearts, as this he had from the very beginning, but about the fact that the natural strength of Sora's heart was directly bolstered by forging such a deep connection so very early.
As I said above, there are only small tidbits and hints which are also of ambigious canon quality from the novels (and I haven't yet seen any translations of those parts), but those clearly infer that, unlike Sora with his ball of happiness around the islands, Ventus was a very shy, insecure but gentle little orphan kid who wished to have someone who loves/takes care of him since he didn't even remember the faces of his parents.

Hm, sounds interesting, I probably should read these novels. Well seeing Nomura is involved in the novel series and these are things that probably won't be addressed in the series itself it's probably okay to assume this is also the case for the Ven in the games. That backstory would definitly explain his behavior in the flashbacks though I usually just assumed it was because of the fractured heart.
Oh, yeah it would be a good explanation for the strength of his heart.
I really dislike how the novels are only released in Japan and never get translated and brought overseas. Luckily we got Goldpanner who's translating them so we still get to enjoy them, though I'd like the possibility to support the series by buying the novels...
If what's written in the novels is true, it's save to say that Sora's childhood and his were quite different. Seeing it would seem that Sora still lives/lived with his parents.

Well, they DID replace models in the KH 1.5 HD remake and considering those flashbacks in BBS take place four years before the game, new models would be sufficient here.
Aqua and Terra would be age-wise around 15/16 that time, meaning they should look similar (in physique) to KH 2 Riku and Kairi while Ventus is around 10/11 years old.

It serves to hammer home the extent of their connection, just like with the golden Xehanort eyes only with the difference that neither Sora nor Ven try to control each other, but are treated as equals.
Roxas of course comes also into that area, since he's practically a hybrid of Sora and Ventus with a new heart and identity to boot.

Agreed, I found this plot point to be very endearing after I finished BBS, and it has truly much potential to be expanded upon, also since it's a symbiotic relationship there's practically no pressing reason why either Sora or Ventus would want to break that connection.

Yeah it would be really nice if Aqua and Terra looked closer to KH2's Kairi and Riku, in physique, and not like they're late teen models from the rest of the game. But I think it would really be necessary for Ven to look younger, because a 10/11 year old looks nothing like a 14/15 year old.

Oh that is another good parallel between Xehanort and Sora. Anoter diffrence is that Sora's heart is taking care of Ven's and not trying to make it part of him.
I'm currious do Kairi, Namine and Xion also share they're eyes?

Especially considering both characters draw strength from their friendship it would only make sense that they'd keep the strongest bond they've ever made. I can definitely see Ven and Sora treating each other like brothers.

Who knows, maybe Sora can even turn the tables around and do what Xehanort tried in DDD in reverse by aiding some of the controlled 13 darknesses in breaking free of Xehanort's control, effectively foiling his plans.

We haven't seen much about the Terra/Eraqus one, yes, that's the main problem. However, the imagery of Kairi falling through Sora in KH 1 and Eraqus through Terra in BBS is very similar.
These chains are clearly a light power though and except two shotlocks available to all three characters Terra never exhibits any clear light powers.
Yeah, in the end it may show that Yen Sid and Mickey are also only human and make errors, although informing Sora beforehand could have prevented much of Xehanort's scheme in DDD.
Traverse Town is a world of the Realm in-between, yes, so it can be awake or asleep, but this Traverse Town we see there is implied to be the sleeping version, as 1st Sora claims ("I hoped it would still be here!") and 2nd Sora opens a sleeping Keyhole at the end at Mysterious Tower, showing that he indeed has gained the power and during the credits (with the letter-snatching) he dives to that Traverse Town.
He wanted to thank the Dream Eaters, yep, but Goofy implies in the secret ending that he's late, so maybe Sora does actually something more than that, possibly related to those tormented hearts that sleep within him.

That would be neat and would also be a fitting way to free the characters if they so chose to, though I see them being more likely to be "killed off".

Well yes the imagery was similar but the circumstances were different, but it's really hard to tell seeing we've seen so little.
This is true but considering he was thought by Eraqus it doesn't seem unlikely that he hadn't learned light based things such as the barrier.
I think it definitely shows that they are just human and make mistakes, let's just hope they learned from it and tell Sora everything next time.
Well the statement "I hoped it would still be here!" could also be referring to the awake one seeing we don't know what happened to it, after all it consisted out of parts of worlds that had fallen into darkness. The second thing you mentioned does seem like a good hint that it's the sleeping one.
I could easily imagine that he's doing something else as well and that the thanking the dream eaters was a detour. After all didn't Nomura initially not plan on that scene and just added it later to give some closure?

They either need to take more time fleshing out their scripts or Nomura needs to hire other script writers. Many of Nomura's ideas and concepts are actually pretty good and interesting, but the presentation of those sadly is subpar more often than not.
These characters probably also would realistically return to a more normal life as far as that's possible in the KH universe. Like for example that if in later installments of the series the main party visits Radiant Garden again Ansem the Wise can still be there and talked to for some NPC-chat or making a side-quest, but he won't be a major player in the actual story at hand again.
Oh come on, Mickey's ears are pretty hard to forget, lol.
Yep, and as you mentioned, it's probably also better to wait with the inter-trio relationships (except maybe Terra/Riku and Ventus/Sora due to story reasons) for the next saga as well. I could imagine it being pretty hilarious seeing Roxas interact with Terra and/or Aqua, or Xion and Kairi.
This is why I fear Nomura and his team have maneuvered themselves into an iffy situation by including Kairi into the secret ending of DDD. This awakens expectations on the side of many players, and it is a very precarious balance that they have to create, as using Kairi in the same lackluster manner like in KH 2 could serve to break her character entirely while focusing too much on her that the other important characters get sidelined can result in a situation similar to Xion with Days.
It is manageable to do this right, also considering that I expect KH 3 to be longer and generally bigger in scale than both KH 1 and 2, but I fear that the scriptwriters may not be up to the task.
These parallels are mostly visual form though.
The funny thing is as well that, ever since Ven was introduced, Roxas is seen more often with his black coat than his actual civil clothes, which makes differentiating even easier, even though their civil clothes are already different enough.
That would be neat and would also be a fitting way to free the characters if they so chose to, though I see them being more likely to be "killed off".

Well yes the imagery was similar but the circumstances were different, but it's really hard to tell seeing we've seen so little.
This is true but considering he was thought by Eraqus it doesn't seem unlikely that he hadn't learned light based things such as the barrier.
I think it definitely shows that they are just human and make mistakes, let's just hope they learned from it and tell Sora everything next time.
Well the statement "I hoped it would still be here!" could also be referring to the awake one seeing we don't know what happened to it, after all it consisted out of parts of worlds that had fallen into darkness. The second thing you mentioned does seem like a good hint that it's the sleeping one.
I could easily imagine that he's doing something else as well and that the thanking the dream eaters was a detour. After all didn't Nomura initially not plan on that scene and just added it later to give some clWell I hope one of those things will happen seeing it would really be too bad if KH3 would suffer under a very poorly written script. I agree I definitely like Nomura’s ideas and concepts, their execution not always as much.
Yeah, it would be nice if they’d give us side-quest that way they can still play a small role in the game.
lol yeah those ears are hard to forget.
It would probably be better that way, of course certain already established relationship between members of the trios should also be addressed in KH3 but it’s not really the right place for new ones to be explored. I really do hope they add a little humor to the meeting of the trios.

Well I’m glad she was in the secret ending and that it hinted at her being a potential Light, but yeah now they’re kind of forced to focus on her a little. It’s just a real bad time for them to do this because KH3 will end this saga, had they done it in Re:Coded and added her as a playable in DDD this wouldn’t be as big of a problem as it is now. Yeah hitting a balance is the key in this situation, though I’m not sure if they’ll manage to pull it off. Personally I didn’t have a problem with days focusing on Xion as much as it did seeing it was mainly Roxas and Xion’s story, as well as the story of their friendship with Axel.
Well let’s hope they’re up to the task, because this is a really important part to the story.
I think they’re even easily distinguishable in their casual civil. sure?

Exactly, and it further drives home the point about the message that it doesn't matter where you originated, as long as you have your own dreams, memories and feelings, you are an own individual no matter what some self-righteous "scientist" may claim. That is also a trait that Sora exhibited already in KH Chain of Memories when dealing with the Riku Replica.
It's certainly odd that Naminé knew that, as even Riku in KH 2 asks DiZ once just whose person's Nobody Naminé actually is.
Xemnas, much like Roxas, is a special case of several hearts involved in his birth though and he never actually came close to Terra-Xehanort, his original self.

Let's hope the second HD collection remedies that and that both collections actually find their way to Europe. They should just include all story-relevant bits from the get go. DLC is good for additional secret boss fights, equipment or costumes but not main story content (I wouldn't say no to some little side episodes though providing some more character development and interaction).
Yes this is true. This is also a big theme of the series, your origin doesn’t define you, you do.
Yeah, I wonder which Org member knew this and told her. Also I’m curious to why she never told Riku and why he didn’t have a feeling that she’s the Nobody of his other best friend, I mean they have the same face.
Well Terra-Xehanort isn’t the only original he has, also MX is the Xehanort that came back after both Ansem SoD and Xemnas were slain by Sora, so wouldn’t Xemnas have to react to him?

Maybe that's because those were the most recent and most painful memories Roxas had, although I think I did glimpse some pictures from the Deep Dive fight and Roxas sitting with Axel on the clock tower.
Sora just calls her "that other girl", so he, much like Roxas, probably only knows that there was someone and it involves great pain, but know neither her name nor her actual story and experiences.
After all, Sora got the final realization that Nobodies can grow hearts by experiencing their grief and seeing Axel, Naminé, Roxas and "that other girl" cry real tears, which you can only do if there's a heart.


Yeah it’s really needed if they want the fans in outside of Japan to get what’s going on by just playing the games. I completely agree we should get this stuff in the initial release and they shouldn’t add such important story elements after that.

Yeah I guess that’s the most likeliest explanation.

Of course, I expect that their main role will most likely be to watch Sora's back and keep Xehanort, Maleficent and the other bad guys off Sora's toes when he's busy bringing back the tormented characters.
Nomura has gone quite a way to convey to us that while it's possible to bring them back, it won't be an easy task and that's what leads me to believe that Sora needs to be clear of having to worry about the worlds or his other friends, which is were Riku, Mickey and Lea would come into play. I'm assuming here that Donald and Goofy would accompany Sora as "bodyguards" during the rescue missions while Mickey, Lea and Riku keep watching the worlds and "hold the line" while Sora is busy and Kairi still "in-training".
I think it was in Coded, but the DDD reports also mention something like it and in one of the flashbacks Yen Sid also talks about it:
"We must lead them out of sorrow and slumber, and back to our world.".

If she retains it, it would be very needed for her to have a positive experience with it, as Naminé using her powers so far only hurt people, mainly Sora, Xion and Roxas.
That's true, Naminé has become somewhat of a handy explanation device in all installments after KH 2 and her role in DDD wasn't really any bigger than Vanitas' or Xion's. When looking at it in overview, I would even say that out of the tormented characters, Roxas was the only one to get a bigger role in DDD.
You mean like some "beings" similar to Naminé being introduced and that being used as a pretext to finally describe the true nature of her first "existence" in the new saga? Possible, although I could also imagine that, if they don't address it in-game during the story that it gets a sort of explanation in KH 3's equivalent of Jiminy's journal.

Well maybe, though I kind of expect them to have a slightly more active role in this whole thing. But it would actually be pretty important to make sure Sora could do what he needed to without any interference.
I honestly don’t quite know how they’ll do it whit bringing them back, but if it would involve going to certain places I could definitely see Riku and the others looking out that Sora, Donald and Goofy could go there and do what they needed to do.
I really hope we get to see some of Kairi’s training, it would be fun if we got to play as her in the prolog/tutorial.
I never understood it as their sleep being tormenting but that they were in pain because of what had happened and that they were sleeping to recover from it.

Yes Namine would definitely need the experience.
From the tormented characters Roxas definitely had the longest appearance.
Well that would be a possibility though I’d guess she’s probably pretty one of a kind, there could also be other reasons to explore it. But yeah it’ll probably be addressed in a journal entry or a report, which might make a return in KH3.


It also depends on if it is important to the story. Unlike Disney worlds, which are often used as filler, original worlds almost always had a deeper purpose to the main plot.
I do however expect a Realm of Darkness level in KH 3 at some point when it is time to save Aqua and Ansem the Wise.
Like said, those are all theories I've read and heard about across the net, my personal opinion is also that Naminé at least tried to be soothing without any selfish background motives.

They wouldn't even need to make entire own series out of it. They could just alternate between the main playable characters and still call it Kingdom Hearts. Bonus points for them if they don't decide on another console hopping spree.

Well I’m guessing seeing that they need to save Aqua and Ansem the Wise from the RoD it would probably be important to the story. There is however the possibility that someone else would be sent to the RoD to save her.

They don't but it could work to their advantage. Yeah, I'd actually appreciate them rotating the focus trio, it keeps them more interesting and less overused. I don't mind them releasing games on a handheld, but if they want to do it again they should just stick to one and not jump around from one to the other.

Yup, that's the main improvement I would also advocate, as much of the percieved "not understanding the plot" is simply due to insufficient information which is often only available in Japanese. I bet the Japanese fans are often facepalming about the western fans since they have easier access to all the important info and not just a part.

Yeah that's one of the bigest problems of the problems of the series.

That could actually work, also when considering a new threat/antagonist/antagonist faction which actually has the resources to strike at several locations at once. SRK cannot be at several places all at once, so having TAV and RAX tackle different challenges of the same enemy with all of them still working for the same cause could work pretty good.
I could imagine the trios having their own (mostly) independent tales from the others, only connected by occassional meetings (i.e. at Yen Sid's tower or conversations through magic (Sora's and Ven's heart connection maybe, including Roxas to have a link to the third trio?). Only one (or two) games of that saga would actually have all of them in one party, which would be either the first and the last game of the saga or even only the finale.

Yeah it could also be a good story and would give them a good reason to split up. Yeah I'd see they're stories as being quite separate for the most part and only really overlapping in the first part and the last. Though they could also have members of the other trios join them for certain worlds. I'd like the idea of Sora and Ven having some kind of telepathy.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Well we both know that he'd sacrifice each and everyone of his new Org members in a heart beat, if it gave him some kind of advantage.
Yep, Xehanort only cares about the X-blade and his goal of becoming a god and recreate the universe. He's obsessed with it.


Hm, sounds interesting, I probably should read these novels. Well seeing Nomura is involved in the novel series and these are things that probably won't be addressed in the series itself it's probably okay to assume this is also the case for the Ven in the games. That backstory would definitly explain his behavior in the flashbacks though I usually just assumed it was because of the fractured heart.
Oh, yeah it would be a good explanation for the strength of his heart.
I really dislike how the novels are only released in Japan and never get translated and brought overseas. Luckily we got Goldpanner who's translating them so we still get to enjoy them, though I'd like the possibility to support the series by buying the novels...
If what's written in the novels is true, it's save to say that Sora's childhood and his were quite different. Seeing it would seem that Sora still lives/lived with his parents.
Like said, I also know only translated summaries so far as especially the BBS novels aren't really far translated yet. It was noted that Nomura sometimes gives some additional material from his concepts that are used in the novels by Kanemaki, but I don't remember it being said that he's actively involved in shaping the story of the novels.
Fans have different stances on this case, although I personally go with the interpretation that as long as it doesn't contradict anything from the games or the Ultimania interviews it can be considered as "likely canon".
That depends on which flashbacks you refer to, as the flashbacks when Ven was brought to Land of Departure his behaviour was because of his fractured and injured heart. Nomura confirmed that in the BBS Ultimania. While Sora's intervention saved Ven's heart and prevented it from fading completely, it was still not fully formed again. Only the care of Aqua, Terra and Eraqus over the four year gap until the proper game starts steadily heals Ven's heart and helps him overcome the trauma.
As for the flashbacks before that like the Heartless attack, yep, those fall in line with his supposed low self-confidence and shyness. Although even with that I do give Ventus the benefit that other characters at the age of 10/11 would probably act the same when confronted with the Heartless, not to forget that Heartless were nearly unknown to the Realm of light until Terra-Xehanort's experiments in Radiant Garden caused the world barriers to shatter and allowed them to appear freely in the RoL.

I would also prefer to have them at least in English, but what can you do? It's somewhat funny though since here in Germany the manga is still serialized and translated, but this one is obviously non-canon due to so many changes made to it. It is a funny read though nonetheless.
Yep, goldpanner is the novel master, I already read her translations of Reverse/Rebirth and the first three chapters of the first BBS novel. I always wanted to start reading the Days novels but even now I never find the time to do so.
If I could get them in a language I can read I would immediately buy them, no question.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that Sora's and Ventus' childhoods differed quite in some important pasts. They're both gentle and kind personalities, but only Sora didn't experience much negative results from this and having parents and Riku as a friend very early on he managed to already grow some self-esteem and actually got the affection and love a child needs. Going by Ven's nature (which also shows partly in his clingy behaviour towards Terra and Aqua) he wants to be loved and likes affection, so having this need denied when he was younger was surely fueling his strong insecurity and diffidence in contrast to Sora.
We also don't know just how long Ven already was Xehanort's apprentice, as Xehanort just writes in his reports that he found him one day on his travels and saw his great potential.


Yeah it would be really nice if Aqua and Terra looked closer to KH2's Kairi and Riku, in physique, and not like they're late teen models from the rest of the game. But I think it would really be necessary for Ven to look younger, because a 10/11 year old looks nothing like a 14/15 year old.

Oh that is another good parallel between Xehanort and Sora. Anoter diffrence is that Sora's heart is taking care of Ven's and not trying to make it part of him.
I'm currious do Kairi, Namine and Xion also share they're eyes?

Especially considering both characters draw strength from their friendship it would only make sense that they'd keep the strongest bond they've ever made. I can definitely see Ven and Sora treating each other like brothers.
It would add at least some realism and show that it really takes place four years before the game, as a 15/16 year old teen looks certainly also different from a 19/20 year old young adult which Aqua and Terra are in the actual game timeline.
Same goes for Ventus, I think in terms of height he would have to be around the model of Ienzo who we see in Radiant Garden in BBS. That said though, Ventus is already such a cute muffin at 14/15, as a 10/11 year old he must have looked even sweeter, lol.

Exactly, same basic ability, different use. Xehanort abuses and consumes other hearts to prolong his own life and uses them as tools while Sora allows other hearts into his own to prolong their lives and offer shelter and protection.
I would highly assume that it goes that way, as while Xion originally came from Sora her own image is still that of Kairi. These characters have all blue eyes, as do Aqua and Terra as well, so the small and subtle differences between their eyes aren't easy to make out. On first glance, all their eyes seem to be the same color, but there are differences in the shades. In some artwork, Kairi has a small tint of purple in her blue while Aqua's eyes are generally a bit brighter than the others, but Sora, Roxas and Ventus have definitely the exact same identical eye color.

Indeed, indeed. That's why this bond should really be explored sufficiently, as Sora's heart, after just being born, already got attracted by Ven's light and the pain of his heart. I actually refer to them as "Heart-brothers" sometimes because while not genetically related or by blood, they're clearly by heart.
They're also both such friendship-freaks and nice, kind guys I would imagine them getting along just fine right from the get go.
In Coded Data-Naminé also noted how very special this connection is. I guess when Roxas gets his own existence then they can form a triplet, lol.

That would be neat and would also be a fitting way to free the characters if they so chose to, though I see them being more likely to be "killed off".

Well yes the imagery was similar but the circumstances were different, but it's really hard to tell seeing we've seen so little.
This is true but considering he was thought by Eraqus it doesn't seem unlikely that he hadn't learned light based things such as the barrier.
I think it definitely shows that they are just human and make mistakes, let's just hope they learned from it and tell Sora everything next time.
Well the statement "I hoped it would still be here!" could also be referring to the awake one seeing we don't know what happened to it, after all it consisted out of parts of worlds that had fallen into darkness. The second thing you mentioned does seem like a good hint that it's the sleeping one.
I could easily imagine that he's doing something else as well and that the thanking the dream eaters was a detour. After all didn't Nomura initially not plan on that scene and just added it later to give some closure?
Sure, some members can already ruled out of this anyways, as Young Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas are like "true" Xehanort's so Sora wouldn't be able to sway them. Young Xehanort also cannot be "killed" since that would cause a paradox, so I assume that "defeating" Young MX just sends him back to his time without any back-ticket while Ansem and Xemnas, just like MX himself and most likely Xigbar, will need to be destroyed fully.
Terra however will be definitely be one to be saved, and depending on his actual stance on the matter, maybe even Isa. With the other members it would really depend on who they are.

Right, and that's why we cannot make any substantial guesses atm on this subject or on how much influence Eraqus has at all.
There's too much left a mystery right now.
I don't know if it is actually confirmed, but general fandom consens seems to be that the original Traverse fell to sleep after most of the worlds it had parts of were restored. Then again one has to keep in mind that the Traverse seen in DDD isn't the one from KH 1 as the DDD one was made/influenced by Joshua.
The dive sequence (and Sora opening a sleeping keyhole beforehand) do hint quite heavily at the Realm of Sleep though.
Thanking the Dream Eaters might have been one of the things Sora intended to do from the beginning, but he said he has to take care of some "stuff" which implies something more than that.
It isn't said by him that he didn't plan it, only that it was added relatively late in production.
Here's Nomura's statement:
Nomura said:
— I see. Were there certain intentions in that scene with the Dream Eaters?
Nomura: That scene was added in the final stages of production. It wouldn’t feel right to have worked so hard raising the Dream Eaters without some sort of closure. Also, since Sora has obtained the power to open doors into the worlds of sleep, I purposely wanted to show a scene where he used that power.
The bold sentence indicates that it was something Nomura thought of on purpose.



Well I hope one of those things will happen seeing it would really be too bad if KH3 would suffer under a very poorly written script. I agree I definitely like Nomura’s ideas and concepts, their execution not always as much.
Yeah, it would be nice if they’d give us side-quest that way they can still play a small role in the game.
lol yeah those ears are hard to forget.
It would probably be better that way, of course certain already established relationship between members of the trios should also be addressed in KH3 but it’s not really the right place for new ones to be explored. I really do hope they add a little humor to the meeting of the trios.

Well I’m glad she was in the secret ending and that it hinted at her being a potential Light, but yeah now they’re kind of forced to focus on her a little. It’s just a real bad time for them to do this because KH3 will end this saga, had they done it in Re:Coded and added her as a playable in DDD this wouldn’t be as big of a problem as it is now. Yeah hitting a balance is the key in this situation, though I’m not sure if they’ll manage to pull it off. Personally I didn’t have a problem with days focusing on Xion as much as it did seeing it was mainly Roxas and Xion’s story, as well as the story of their friendship with Axel.
Well let’s hope they’re up to the task, because this is a really important part to the story.
I think they’re even easily distinguishable in their casual civil. sure?
Due to all the hype and overblown expectations I already expect KH 3 to be not the greatest hit of the series, not to mention the fanbase as a whole has become largely unpleasable.
The scripts do need improvement in any case though, as a poor script combined with the high expectations of the game could lead to a possible desaster.
On the bright side though Nomura is not stupid, he knows that this will be the finale for the saga and I hope he also has kept in mind just how much needs to be addressed story- and character-wise so that he devises a concept of sufficient scale so that this crucial point of the KH Series actually gets what it deserves. They have much more space to work with in this generation so they should use it. I do not even expect them to deliver a masterpiece of epic proportions that blows everyone away, but I think that it is not presumptuous to actually expect at least a decent made finale that rounds out a continuous story spread over eight different games.
It would at least keep such characters from older games alive in the universe and serve as a nod to the old saga without having them use up space for potential new characters.
I have a feeling that regarding the relationships of the three main trios + Naminé,the amount of coverage these can get, regardless if in-trio or across-trio, will depend strongly on how large in scale KH 3 itself is. The bigger the game is, the more they can add into this without having to cut back on Disney-content or stuff involving the conflict with Xehanort.

I had mixed reactions, not because of any strong dislike towards Kairi but because I feel they are juggling with her character in a careless manner. While Xehanort, Riku and Lea/Axel are the only full developed characters, most of the others have at least some development arcs. Kairi would need a development arc which really focuses on her and her feelings and stances towards the other characters before she can truly step in as an equal with the others. There is something lacking which I feel the final game in a saga isn't the right place to fill out.
This will be really hard to pull off good.
For me, the focus on Xion was quite a bit too much. I do agree that a new character needs to be introduced and take a prominent role, but not to the point where nearly everything revolves around that character pushing even the supposed protagonist to the side in terms of importance.
In BBS Terra also didn't get nearly everything revolving around him, as Aqua and Ven also got their fair share of the spotlight.

I'm on that bandwagon too, lol, don't ask me I could always differentiate Roxas and Ven with ease, yet there are also still fans out there who don't even get that they are friggin' different persons and think they're in essence the same.


Yes this is true. This is also a big theme of the series, your origin doesn’t define you, you do.
Yeah, I wonder which Org member knew this and told her. Also I’m curious to why she never told Riku and why he didn’t have a feeling that she’s the Nobody of his other best friend, I mean they have the same face.
Well Terra-Xehanort isn’t the only original he has, also MX is the Xehanort that came back after both Ansem SoD and Xemnas were slain by Sora, so wouldn’t Xemnas have to react to him?




Yeah it’s really needed if they want the fans in outside of Japan to get what’s going on by just playing the games. I completely agree we should get this stuff in the initial release and they shouldn’t add such important story elements after that.

Yeah I guess that’s the most likeliest explanation.



Well maybe, though I kind of expect them to have a slightly more active role in this whole thing. But it would actually be pretty important to make sure Sora could do what he needed to without any interference.
I honestly don’t quite know how they’ll do it whit bringing them back, but if it would involve going to certain places I could definitely see Riku and the others looking out that Sora, Donald and Goofy could go there and do what they needed to do.
I really hope we get to see some of Kairi’s training, it would be fun if we got to play as her in the prolog/tutorial.
I never understood it as their sleep being tormenting but that they were in pain because of what had happened and that they were sleeping to recover from it.

Yes Namine would definitely need the experience.
From the tormented characters Roxas definitely had the longest appearance.
Well that would be a possibility though I’d guess she’s probably pretty one of a kind, there could also be other reasons to explore it. But yeah it’ll probably be addressed in a journal entry or a report, which might make a return in KH3.
Yep, and it is seen among the fandom who understood this theme and who not, as those who do actually see Roxas, Naminé, Xion and the Riku Replica as their own individuals just like Sora does.
If I would place a bet I would say Vexen, as Axel found a report called "The truth of Naminé" in his paperwork during Days.
As for Riku, he didn't even believe that Roxas was Sora's Nobody at first, as stated by Nomura. Only when Roxas (inadvertently, he was surprised about it himself) responded to his taunts like Sora would Riku realized that Roxas really was created from Sora.
The "how" about their "Birth by Sleep" is the other big mystery besides the Terra/Eraqus/Xehanort-mess Nomura left open for KH 3.
Well, if you look at it from a real-life perspective, despite the person sleeping to recover, would you expect someone who is in heavy pain to sleep peacefully?

And Rox was the only one with an actual speaking role. Terra and Aqua just said "Ven" once while Naminé, Xion and Ventus didn't speak one word.
As long as they don't just drop the point of Naminé's nature, anything should be fine.


Well I’m guessing seeing that they need to save Aqua and Ansem the Wise from the RoD it would probably be important to the story. There is however the possibility that someone else would be sent to the RoD to save her.

They don't but it could work to their advantage. Yeah, I'd actually appreciate them rotating the focus trio, it keeps them more interesting and less overused. I don't mind them releasing games on a handheld, but if they want to do it again they should just stick to one and not jump around from one to the other.



Yeah that's one of the bigest problems of the problems of the series.



Yeah it could also be a good story and would give them a good reason to split up. Yeah I'd see they're stories as being quite separate for the most part and only really overlapping in the first part and the last. Though they could also have members of the other trios join them for certain worlds. I'd like the idea of Sora and Ven having some kind of telepathy.
Sending someone other would defeat the purpose though that it is Sora who is destinied to save all of them. "The only one who can help them is Sora" was stated by Data-Naminé in Coded, and in Blank Points they're all calling to Sora, so just sending someone else would kinda ruin the premise.

It would also depend on if all three trios would make enough sales to prove the strategy of them rotating in focus being right. It would not be good if, for example, only the titles with SRK are widely bought while the TAV and RAX titles only do mediocre sales.
Yeah, two consoles maximum, one handheld and one home, that would actually be afforable for most people.

Of course there would be some connections between the stories (even if it would be only Sora having the mental talks with Roxas or Ventus and/or the occassional meetings of all trios at Yen Sid's place), but you won't necessarily need to play all three trio's separate story arcs in the middle of the saga to understand the overaching plot.
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Yep, Xehanort only cares about the X-blade and his goal of becoming a god and recreate the universe. He's obsessed with it.

Like said, I also know only translated summaries so far as especially the BBS novels aren't really far translated yet. It was noted that Nomura sometimes gives some additional material from his concepts that are used in the novels by Kanemaki, but I don't remember it being said that he's actively involved in shaping the story of the novels.
Fans have different stances on this case, although I personally go with the interpretation that as long as it doesn't contradict anything from the games or the Ultimania interviews it can be considered as "likely canon".
That depends on which flashbacks you refer to, as the flashbacks when Ven was brought to Land of Departure his behaviour was because of his fractured and injured heart. Nomura confirmed that in the BBS Ultimania. While Sora's intervention saved Ven's heart and prevented it from fading completely, it was still not fully formed again. Only the care of Aqua, Terra and Eraqus over the four year gap until the proper game starts steadily heals Ven's heart and helps him overcome the trauma.
As for the flashbacks before that like the Heartless attack, yep, those fall in line with his supposed low self-confidence and shyness. Although even with that I do give Ventus the benefit that other characters at the age of 10/11 would probably act the same when confronted with the Heartless, not to forget that Heartless were nearly unknown to the Realm of light until Terra-Xehanort's experiments in Radiant Garden caused the world barriers to shatter and allowed them to appear freely in the RoL.

I don't know how active Nomura is involved, but for me even providing the additional material already makes it closer to cannon, than if the author came up with everything. Also I've heard that a lot that's been brought up in the novels first got confirmed in later games.
Well I think your stance is pretty reasonable, especially considering that some things probably will never be addressed by the games themselves.
Yeah that was the scene I was referring to. Yeah, in a way Ven profited from that ordeal otherwise he probably wouldn't had come into such a caring environment.
It’s kind of hard imagining a 10/11 year old not panicking in that kind of situation. I mean being attacked by Heartless is already scary enough but he was constantly told that he should embrace his darkness which is probably also pretty scare to do.

I would also prefer to have them at least in English, but what can you do? It's somewhat funny though since here in Germany the manga is still serialized and translated, but this one is obviously non-canon due to so many changes made to it. It is a funny read though nonetheless.
Yep, goldpanner is the novel master, I already read her translations of Reverse/Rebirth and the first three chapters of the first BBS novel. I always wanted to start reading the Days novels but even now I never find the time to do so.
If I could get them in a language I can read I would immediately buy them, no question.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that Sora's and Ventus' childhoods differed quite in some important pasts. They're both gentle and kind personalities, but only Sora didn't experience much negative results from this and having parents and Riku as a friend very early on he managed to already grow some self-esteem and actually got the affection and love a child needs. Going by Ven's nature (which also shows partly in his clingy behaviour towards Terra and Aqua) he wants to be loved and likes affection, so having this need denied when he was younger was surely fueling his strong insecurity and diffidence in contrast to Sora.
We also don't know just how long Ven already was Xehanort's apprentice, as Xehanort just writes in his reports that he found him one day on his travels and saw his great potential.

Not much we can do. If they haven't released them outside of Japan, they probably won't be doing it anytime soon no matter how much we'd ask them to. I agree it's funny that the manga is getting released outside of Japan but the novels aren't. Yeah they chance a lot, but they are fun to read. Too bad they never made a BBS manga.
Yeah, I really should check out her translations. We’re quite lucky to have someone who’s willing to translate them in her free time.
Me too, I really would like to add them to my collection.
Sora has been surrounded by friends his whole live and could form two very strong friendships at a very young age that have lasted up until now. Ven clingy behavior towards Terra and Aqua, hints that he hasn’t had many friends and that he has a hard time letting go of his friends even if it’s just temporary.
This is quite unclear, I really wonder at what age Ven started his training. I can’t imagine him having been with Xehanort for too long after all he was only 10/11 when his heart was split.

It would add at least some realism and show that it really takes place four years before the game, as a 15/16 year old teen looks certainly also different from a 19/20 year old young adult which Aqua and Terra are in the actual game timeline.
Same goes for Ventus, I think in terms of height he would have to be around the model of Ienzo who we see in Radiant Garden in BBS. That said though, Ventus is already such a cute muffin at 14/15, as a 10/11 year old he must have looked even sweeter, lol.

Exactly, same basic ability, different use. Xehanort abuses and consumes other hearts to prolong his own life and uses them as tools while Sora allows other hearts into his own to prolong their lives and offer shelter and protection.
I would highly assume that it goes that way, as while Xion originally came from Sora her own image is still that of Kairi. These characters have all blue eyes, as do Aqua and Terra as well, so the small and subtle differences between their eyes aren't easy to make out. On first glance, all their eyes seem to be the same color, but there are differences in the shades. In some artwork, Kairi has a small tint of purple in her blue while Aqua's eyes are generally a bit brighter than the others, but Sora, Roxas and Ventus have definitely the exact same identical eye color.

Indeed, indeed. That's why this bond should really be explored sufficiently, as Sora's heart, after just being born, already got attracted by Ven's light and the pain of his heart. I actually refer to them as "Heart-brothers" sometimes because while not genetically related or by blood, they're clearly by heart.
They're also both such friendship-freaks and nice, kind guys I would imagine them getting along just fine right from the get go.
In Coded Data-Naminé also noted how very special this connection is. I guess when Roxas gets his own existence then they can form a triplet, lol.

Yeah it would be nice if you could actually see it was four years ago. Do we even really know how old Terra and Aqua are? But yeah even they would look quite different from how they looked in the game.
Yeah, he’d probably be around Ienzo’s height if not a little shorter.

Yeah, that’s basically what we’ve seen so far. I wouldn’t be surprised if this shared ability would eventually lead to Sora and friends’ victory.
I always think it’s funny how pretty much every hero character in fiction tends to have blue eyes. I could easily imagine that the eyes of our main cast while being blue do differ in shading slightly.

Yes they’re clearly related by their heart, which in the KH universe apparently is almost like being related by blood seeing it affected Sora’s appearance so strongly.
Yeah, I also think both would probably feel like they knew the other they’re whole live, so it really can’t see them separating.
Yeah, though I don’t think Roxas’ new heart would be part of this strong connection they’ve already gotten.

Sure, some members can already ruled out of this anyways, as Young Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas are like "true" Xehanort's so Sora wouldn't be able to sway them. Young Xehanort also cannot be "killed" since that would cause a paradox, so I assume that "defeating" Young MX just sends him back to his time without any back-ticket while Ansem and Xemnas, just like MX himself and most likely Xigbar, will need to be destroyed fully.
Terra however will be definitely be one to be saved, and depending on his actual stance on the matter, maybe even Isa. With the other members it would really depend on who they are.

Right, and that's why we cannot make any substantial guesses atm on this subject or on how much influence Eraqus has at all.
There's too much left a mystery right now.
I don't know if it is actually confirmed, but general fandom consens seems to be that the original Traverse fell to sleep after most of the worlds it had parts of were restored. Then again one has to keep in mind that the Traverse seen in DDD isn't the one from KH 1 as the DDD one was made/influenced by Joshua.
The dive sequence (and Sora opening a sleeping keyhole beforehand) do hint quite heavily at the Realm of Sleep though.
Thanking the Dream Eaters might have been one of the things Sora intended to do from the beginning, but he said he has to take care of some "stuff" which implies something more than that.
It isn't said by him that he didn't plan it, only that it was added relatively late in production.
Here's Nomura's statement:

The bold sentence indicates that it was something Nomura thought of on purpose.

Yeah, YX can’t be killed but he can be defeated and dumped back to his time with no recollection of the events. Ansem and Xemnas would probably also just return to their time where they’d be destroyed by the Soras of the past. MX and Braig on the other hand will probably either being destroyed or end up suffering their own fate worse than death.
Yeah, Terra is definitely going to be saved as I would assume most unwilling vessels would be.

Yeah, it’s still too unclear.
Yeah, they probably weren’t quite the same though seeing it was a dream version of the world Joshua could probably just change things. I wouldn’t mind if the places added in DDD would stay, if they ever brought that world back.
How could you tell that it was a sleeping keyhole? I haven’t really noticed a difference between those and a normal keyhole.
Yeah, but I’m curious to what kind of stuff he has to take care of in the RoS.

Due to all the hype and overblown expectations I already expect KH 3 to be not the greatest hit of the series, not to mention the fanbase as a whole has become largely unpleasable.
The scripts do need improvement in any case though, as a poor script combined with the high expectations of the game could lead to a possible desaster.
On the bright side though Nomura is not stupid, he knows that this will be the finale for the saga and I hope he also has kept in mind just how much needs to be addressed story- and character-wise so that he devises a concept of sufficient scale so that this crucial point of the KH Series actually gets what it deserves. They have much more space to work with in this generation so they should use it. I do not even expect them to deliver a masterpiece of epic proportions that blows everyone away, but I think that it is not presumptuous to actually expect at least a decent made finale that rounds out a continuous story spread over eight different games.
It would at least keep such characters from older games alive in the universe and serve as a nod to the old saga without having them use up space for potential new characters.
I have a feeling that regarding the relationships of the three main trios + Naminé,the amount of coverage these can get, regardless if in-trio or across-trio, will depend strongly on how large in scale KH 3 itself is. The bigger the game is, the more they can add into this without having to cut back on Disney-content or stuff involving the conflict with Xehanort.

I had mixed reactions, not because of any strong dislike towards Kairi but because I feel they are juggling with her character in a careless manner. While Xehanort, Riku and Lea/Axel are the only full developed characters, most of the others have at least some development arcs. Kairi would need a development arc which really focuses on her and her feelings and stances towards the other characters before she can truly step in as an equal with the others. There is something lacking which I feel the final game in a saga isn't the right place to fill out.
This will be really hard to pull off good.
For me, the focus on Xion was quite a bit too much. I do agree that a new character needs to be introduced and take a prominent role, but not to the point where nearly everything revolves around that character pushing even the supposed protagonist to the side in terms of importance.
In BBS Terra also didn't get nearly everything revolving around him, as Aqua and Ven also got their fair share of the spotlight.

I'm on that bandwagon too, lol, don't ask me I could always differentiate Roxas and Ven with ease, yet there are also still fans out there who don't even get that they are friggin' different persons and think they're in essence the same.

Yeah, I don’t think too many fans will be pleased by this game, it’s been too hyped up. Personally I’ll probably like it, seeing I expected to be just as good as BBS and DDD were, which seems realistic.
Yeah, I kinda hope they get someone new to help write this games script.
I really hope he kept those things in mind and that SE doesn’t push him to rush it.
That really does seem like a reasonable request for the final instalment of this Saga.
The amount of interaction between the main cast, definitely depends on the scale of the game. If it’s as big as many suspect there should be enough time for it.

Kairi definitely lacks a development arc and this game is definitely not the place for it. But it feels if they hadn’t pulled something like this she’d probably get sidelined again, though they could have had her as a PoH in a slightly more prominent role, they’d kind of have to neglect the fact that she’s a (potential) keyblade wielder.
Well that’s true.

Yeah, though I think those are mostly the ones that just loosely follow the series.

Yep, and it is seen among the fandom who understood this theme and who not, as those who do actually see Roxas, Naminé, Xion and the Riku Replica as their own individuals just like Sora does.
If I would place a bet I would say Vexen, as Axel found a report called "The truth of Naminé" in his paperwork during Days.
As for Riku, he didn't even believe that Roxas was Sora's Nobody at first, as stated by Nomura. Only when Roxas (inadvertently, he was surprised about it himself) responded to his taunts like Sora would Riku realized that Roxas really was created from Sora.
The "how" about their "Birth by Sleep" is the other big mystery besides the Terra/Eraqus/Xehanort-mess Nomura left open for KH 3.
Well, if you look at it from a real-life perspective, despite the person sleeping to recover, would you expect someone who is in heavy pain to sleep peacefully?

And Rox was the only one with an actual speaking role. Terra and Aqua just said "Ven" once while Naminé, Xion and Ventus didn't speak one word.
As long as they don't just drop the point of Naminé's nature, anything should be fine.

Well there we’d have the report that would need to be found in KH3.
I honestly think that’s odd, it’s like not recognizing your friends after they get a dye job, new hairdo and clothing. But maybe there’s more to it than that, seeing they have their own body language and personalities.
Yeah, Namura likes to leave us these kind of mysteries, though with the “birth by sleep” one we really don’t have much to go on.
Well that’s true. Though there would probably be time where it was peaceful.

Yeah Roxas was the only one who got more lines than just a word in TWTNW, but Xion and Ven also got lines on DI.
I agree, as long as it’s not dropped I’m ok with it not being addressed in KH3.

Sending someone other would defeat the purpose though that it is Sora who is destinied to save all of them. "The only one who can help them is Sora" was stated by Data-Naminé in Coded, and in Blank Points they're all calling to Sora, so just sending someone else would kinda ruin the premise.

It would also depend on if all three trios would make enough sales to prove the strategy of them rotating in focus being right. It would not be good if, for example, only the titles with SRK are widely bought while the TAV and RAX titles only do mediocre sales.
Yeah, two consoles maximum, one handheld and one home, that would actually be afforable for most people.

Of course there would be some connections between the stories (even if it would be only Sora having the mental talks with Roxas or Ventus and/or the occassional meetings of all trios at Yen Sid's place), but you won't necessarily need to play all three trio's separate story arcs in the middle of the saga to understand the overaching plot.

Yes, that would definitely ruin the premise, but the realm of darkness isn’t just accessible to Sora. Though he’s the one destined to open the Door to Light., so he’ll probably be the one to save them.

That’s true, but I think that the other tiros are just as strong and beloved. Also we wouldn’t necessarily be limited to SRK, TAV and RAX who’d to say we couldn’t get a Sora, Aqua and Roxas game or a Kairi, Ven and Axel game?
Yeah, it would also offer the player the chance to play on the go or play in front of the TV at home.

Exactly what I was thinking. That way they could even have one on a handheld and if people don’t want a handheld they wouldn’t need to play it to get the story.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I don't know how active Nomura is involved, but for me even providing the additional material already makes it closer to cannon, than if the author came up with everything. Also I've heard that a lot that's been brought up in the novels first got confirmed in later games.
Well I think your stance is pretty reasonable, especially considering that some things probably will never be addressed by the games themselves.
Yeah that was the scene I was referring to. Yeah, in a way Ven profited from that ordeal otherwise he probably wouldn't had come into such a caring environment.
It’s kind of hard imagining a 10/11 year old not panicking in that kind of situation. I mean being attacked by Heartless is already scary enough but he was constantly told that he should embrace his darkness which is probably also pretty scare to do.
It's clear that Kanemaki gives her own spin on everything, incorporating the material provided by Nomura along the way. Since we don't know however which parts in the novels are taken from Nomura's material and which parts are expansions made by Kanemaki, we can only, as you point out, take it closer to canon instead of actual canon. Another thing it is however with parts that have been confirmed either in a later game or interview, those can be taken into the whole picture without any worry. Same goes for parts which are already proven to be false/inaccurate by newer developments.
It's somehow a bitter irony that he had to be put through such a horrible torture to finally find some people who truly provide him the affection and love he was craving for so much. The heart in the KH Universe is one of the most crucial parts of one's existence and Ventus got his maimed when still a child. Even Xehanort himself, without true remorse of course, as always, admits that he damaged his heart in the most horrific way possible.
Yeah, even outgoing kids with more self-confidence would probably be scared in such a situation. After all, as I also notice now, except this one flashback scene with Ventus, we never see any child as a Keyblade Wielder in the series. All other people we see are already at least in their teens.


Not much we can do. If they haven't released them outside of Japan, they probably won't be doing it anytime soon no matter how much we'd ask them to. I agree it's funny that the manga is getting released outside of Japan but the novels aren't. Yeah they chance a lot, but they are fun to read. Too bad they never made a BBS manga.
Yeah, I really should check out her translations. We’re quite lucky to have someone who’s willing to translate them in her free time.
Me too, I really would like to add them to my collection.
Sora has been surrounded by friends his whole live and could form two very strong friendships at a very young age that have lasted up until now. Ven clingy behavior towards Terra and Aqua, hints that he hasn’t had many friends and that he has a hard time letting go of his friends even if it’s just temporary.
This is quite unclear, I really wonder at what age Ven started his training. I can’t imagine him having been with Xehanort for too long after all he was only 10/11 when his heart was split.
Who knows, maybe they'll do it when the HD collections bring in enough numbers of new fans, or when KH 3 is finally out and the saga complete.
The manga is also not released evenly, as I know the manga isn't released in the US anymore and here in Germany they take also pretty long to release a volume. The manga is also probably meant to be more comedic and light-hearted, and for that diverges from the canon very much while the novels try to stay close to it.
The manga is behind schedule anyways. The KH 2 manga was left unfinished and the Days one was started, now, after Days is completed, the mangaka wants to continue with the KH 2 manga, so a Coded and/or BBS manga isn't out of the question for later.
Sure do. ^__^
As I love written books, I would surely grab them the moment they would become available.
This shows just how much difference some early development can make even with characters who have a similar nature. It's definitely a compelling explanation for some of Ven's behaviour during the actual game. He cannot bear being alone for too long due to his lonely childhood and his desire for affection and connecting with others drives him to act somewhat more clingy and pushing than people at this age usually do.
I have read some people criticizing this behaviour of him as too childish/annoying, just as his quest to make more friends and learn more about friendship in general after the Radiant Garden episode, but with this knowledge about his mental attitude these antics become understandable.
Well, it is noted (I don't know if it was in Xehanort's reports or also in the novel summary) that Ventus greatly respected Xehanort before the betrayal at least as a teacher figure (or possibly even a parental replacement), so I would assume that he was with Xehanort surely more than just a few weeks, also considering that Ventus could already materialize his personal Keyblade even as a kid.
The most I would dare to assume would be two years, so that Ven might have been taken in by Xehanort when he was eight/nine years old.



Yeah it would be nice if you could actually see it was four years ago. Do we even really know how old Terra and Aqua are? But yeah even they would look quite different from how they looked in the game.
Yeah, he’d probably be around Ienzo’s height if not a little shorter.

Yeah, that’s basically what we’ve seen so far. I wouldn’t be surprised if this shared ability would eventually lead to Sora and friends’ victory.
I always think it’s funny how pretty much every hero character in fiction tends to have blue eyes. I could easily imagine that the eyes of our main cast while being blue do differ in shading slightly.

Yes they’re clearly related by their heart, which in the KH universe apparently is almost like being related by blood seeing it affected Sora’s appearance so strongly.
Yeah, I also think both would probably feel like they knew the other they’re whole live, so it really can’t see them separating.
Yeah, though I don’t think Roxas’ new heart would be part of this strong connection they’ve already gotten.
It would probably also clear up confusion. The scene where Ven's heart is destroyed is already brutal, but using a model that would actually reflect his current age would surely put another punch to the impact.
For the BBS Trio we do not know any definite ages. Ventus is scaled to be anywhere between 12 and 15 in BBS itself, although most people tend to go with 14/15. Aqua is said to be somewhere between 17 and 20 and Terra anywhere between 19 and 22. Definite is however only that Aqua is younger than Terra and that Ventus is the youngest of the trio.

It would surely drive the parallels to a boiling point.
I guess that has to do with blue eyes very often considered to be a mark of beauty, innocence and inner purity. More morally ambigious "heros" or anti-heros tend to have either violet eyes (like Lelouch from Code Geass), green or sometimes even black.
It's very subtle and not always noticeable due to lighting, but it is there. ;)

That reminds me of Aqua visiting Destiny Islands and actually saying that Sora "is the spitting image of Ven".
This truly has so much potential, lol, it would be a shame if this isn't explored and expanded later on.
Looking at it from another viewpoint Roxas could even be considered the living embodiment/proof of that tightly knitted connection between Sora and Ventus, as he takes something from both of them.
I also won't say that Roxas would be in the same connection of Sora and Ven, but he would have his own connection with both of them, so it would form a sort of triangle.

Yeah, YX can’t be killed but he can be defeated and dumped back to his time with no recollection of the events. Ansem and Xemnas would probably also just return to their time where they’d be destroyed by the Soras of the past. MX and Braig on the other hand will probably either being destroyed or end up suffering their own fate worse than death.
Yeah, Terra is definitely going to be saved as I would assume most unwilling vessels would be.

Yeah, it’s still too unclear.
Yeah, they probably weren’t quite the same though seeing it was a dream version of the world Joshua could probably just change things. I wouldn’t mind if the places added in DDD would stay, if they ever brought that world back.
How could you tell that it was a sleeping keyhole? I haven’t really noticed a difference between those and a normal keyhole.
Yeah, but I’m curious to what kind of stuff he has to take care of in the RoS.
I would say considering the crimes committed a fate worse than death would be appropriate at least for MX himself, although this would bear the inevitable danger that he may someday escape that fate. Like that while KH 3 is the end of the Xehanort saga, and Nomura does two more sagas with other villains, Xehanort ends up returning in the fourth saga or something.
Yep, also due to Terra being confirmed to be one of the tormented ones.
As for other members, that will depend on how many of them besides Terra actually are unwilling vessels.

Nomura confirms in the DDD Ultimania that Traverse can always change shape, it's a special property of that world.
Look at the Keyholes shown in KH 1 and BBS (when Aqua creates Castle Oblivion), they're "just" glowing Keyholes alone. If you look closely in DDD you'll see that the sleeping Keyholes are surrounded by a golden corona which carries also some similarity to a clock.

Yeah, I don’t think too many fans will be pleased by this game, it’s been too hyped up. Personally I’ll probably like it, seeing I expected to be just as good as BBS and DDD were, which seems realistic.
Yeah, I kinda hope they get someone new to help write this games script.
I really hope he kept those things in mind and that SE doesn’t push him to rush it.
That really does seem like a reasonable request for the final instalment of this Saga.
The amount of interaction between the main cast, definitely depends on the scale of the game. If it’s as big as many suspect there should be enough time for it.

Kairi definitely lacks a development arc and this game is definitely not the place for it. But it feels if they hadn’t pulled something like this she’d probably get sidelined again, though they could have had her as a PoH in a slightly more prominent role, they’d kind of have to neglect the fact that she’s a (potential) keyblade wielder.
Well that’s true.

Yeah, though I think those are mostly the ones that just loosely follow the series.
I generally keep my own expectations low so I'm often positively surprised, *ggg*.
Seeing that Versus XIII is Nomura's last big involvement outside character design (which he will still do) with Final Fantasy and he expressed his aim to focus solely on KH after Versus is finished I guess it's safe to assume that he will be able to take things on better.
It's better not to expect too much, but sadly many people aren't that humble.
I do actually expect KH 3 to exceed all other games in the series in length, too. The sheer amount of stuff that needs to be addressed also practically requires it.

By now people are used to her being sidelined though, and giving her that needed first development arc before involving her in a major plot bomb like a saga-finale by starting with it in the next saga would carry fewer risks.
The combination of PoH and Keyblade wielder is an interesting concept, and probably also one of the developments Xehanort won't expect, so it could make for a good plot point to thwart Xehanort plans.
The only thing is that I do not have that much faith in the writers that they can pull this off without hurting either Kairi herself as a character due to bad handling or sideline other major characters too much.

Mostly, yeah, as I also have seen theories revolving around that, and loose following fans normally don't do theories.

Well there we’d have the report that would need to be found in KH3.
I honestly think that’s odd, it’s like not recognizing your friends after they get a dye job, new hairdo and clothing. But maybe there’s more to it than that, seeing they have their own body language and personalities.
Yeah, Namura likes to leave us these kind of mysteries, though with the “birth by sleep” one we really don’t have much to go on.
Well that’s true. Though there would probably be time where it was peaceful.

Yeah Roxas was the only one who got more lines than just a word in TWTNW, but Xion and Ven also got lines on DI.
I agree, as long as it’s not dropped I’m ok with it not being addressed in KH3.

Yes, that would definitely ruin the premise, but the realm of darkness isn’t just accessible to Sora. Though he’s the one destined to open the Door to Light., so he’ll probably be the one to save them.

That’s true, but I think that the other tiros are just as strong and beloved. Also we wouldn’t necessarily be limited to SRK, TAV and RAX who’d to say we couldn’t get a Sora, Aqua and Roxas game or a Kairi, Ven and Axel game?
Yeah, it would also offer the player the chance to play on the go or play in front of the TV at home.

Exactly what I was thinking. That way they could even have one on a handheld and if people don’t want a handheld they wouldn’t need to play it to get the story.

That would be a neat entry point indeed and also an opportunity to involve Even, Vexen's human form, slightly in the main plot as he has inherited Vexen's memories and if he isn't one of the 13 darknesses he could help Sora & co. resolving the mysteries around Naminé.
Well, in CoM Riku noticed that Naminé has a different "smell" than Kairi when he meets her, deducing immediately that it was her who aided him in Kairi's form during the battle with Zexion.
That we do not have much on the "Birth by Sleep" and how the tormented ones can be saved is still a deliberate mystery on Nomura's part, which he elaborated upon in the Ultimania of Re: Coded:

Coded Ultimania said:
Speaking of the Birth by Sleep secret cutscene, Ansem the Wise says that he hid his research results in Sora. This complies with what happens in Re:Coded when Namine says DiZ (Ansem the Wise) has hid something inside Sora. Is that mystery remaining unsolved?

Nomura: Yes. Namine added data to the Jiminy Journal in order to convey that the “pain” of those connected to Sora must be healed, but at the point in time Ansem hid the research results inside Sora, he didn’t know that. Accordingly, Ansem’s research results will become the key to healing the “pain” in the future of the story.

So even though Namine and Ansem acted independently, as a result of what the two did, it leads to one thing. And speaking of those details…

Nomura: Since that will likely become the story for Kingdom Hearts III, please look forward to that until then.

---

After this, it seems Sora and Riku will be taking their Mark of Mastery Exams. Does this have a direct relation to curing the “pain” of those connected to Sora?

Nomura: No, those are two separate stories. I’m thinking Kingdom Hearts III will be about going to cure their “pain”. I plan on drawing out the story of those two’s Mark of Mastery Exams in another title.

According to this, Nomura intends to make the saving of the suffering characters one of the central story points of KH 3, which explains why he's so shady about it in DDD.

Well, if their sleep was totally peaceful and no pain/suffering there they wouldn't need to be saved, right?

Yep, and those scenes on DI were the opportunity for Jesse McCartney to show off his talent of voicing in different tones while Xion's VA had the sole line to speak in the whole game for her, lol.

Who says that Sora will go there alone? I'm sure we'll get party gameplay in the RoD with the objective of finding Aqua and Ansem the Wise. Doing the actual deed though will be most likely Sora's job.

Seeing the diversity of the fanbase this might indeed work. Mixing up the trios would however first need a significant story reason to do so and break up the already tuned teams who know each others battle styles and second require some deeper character interaction across the trios so that the characters know each other better.

It would be the solution with the least amount of complaints for sure.
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

It's clear that Kanemaki gives her own spin on everything, incorporating the material provided by Nomura along the way. Since we don't know however which parts in the novels are taken from Nomura's material and which parts are expansions made by Kanemaki, we can only, as you point out, take it closer to canon instead of actual canon. Another thing it is however with parts that have been confirmed either in a later game or interview, those can be taken into the whole picture without any worry. Same goes for parts which are already proven to be false/inaccurate by newer developments.
It's somehow a bitter irony that he had to be put through such a horrible torture to finally find some people who truly provide him the affection and love he was craving for so much. The heart in the KH Universe is one of the most crucial parts of one's existence and Ventus got his maimed when still a child. Even Xehanort himself, without true remorse of course, as always, admits that he damaged his heart in the most horrific way possible.
Yeah, even outgoing kids with more self-confidence would probably be scared in such a situation. After all, as I also notice now, except this one flashback scene with Ventus, we never see any child as a Keyblade Wielder in the series. All other people we see are already at least in their teens.

It definitely is bitter irony that he had to go through that to end up with a loving “family”. Yeah, though Xehanort did actually show pitty on Ven when he thought Ven was going to die and brought him to DI, which in the end saved him.
I can imagine even teens having difficulties coping with such a moment, after all it’s pretty much live or death and confronting something scary such as giving in to your darkness.
Ven is the youngest keyblade wielder we’ve actively seen wield one. I think it would be, kinda odd to see someone at SRK age in BBS actively wield a keyblade.

Who knows, maybe they'll do it when the HD collections bring in enough numbers of new fans, or when KH 3 is finally out and the saga complete.
The manga is also not released evenly, as I know the manga isn't released in the US anymore and here in Germany they take also pretty long to release a volume. The manga is also probably meant to be more comedic and light-hearted, and for that diverges from the canon very much while the novels try to stay close to it.
The manga is behind schedule anyways. The KH 2 manga was left unfinished and the Days one was started, now, after Days is completed, the mangaka wants to continue with the KH 2 manga, so a Coded and/or BBS manga isn't out of the question for later.
Sure do. ^__^
As I love written books, I would surely grab them the moment they would become available.
This shows just how much difference some early development can make even with characters who have a similar nature. It's definitely a compelling explanation for some of Ven's behaviour during the actual game. He cannot bear being alone for too long due to his lonely childhood and his desire for affection and connecting with others drives him to act somewhat more clingy and pushing than people at this age usually do.
I have read some people criticizing this behaviour of him as too childish/annoying, just as his quest to make more friends and learn more about friendship in general after the Radiant Garden episode, but with this knowledge about his mental attitude these antics become understandable.
Well, it is noted (I don't know if it was in Xehanort's reports or also in the novel summary) that Ventus greatly respected Xehanort before the betrayal at least as a teacher figure (or possibly even a parental replacement), so I would assume that he was with Xehanort surely more than just a few weeks, also considering that Ventus could already materialize his personal Keyblade even as a kid.
The most I would dare to assume would be two years, so that Ven might have been taken in by Xehanort when he was eight/nine years old.

We’ll it’s possible, but I won’t hold my breath.
Yeah I don’t get the manga’s german release, we’re at Vol. 3 of days and Vol. 5 has been out in Japan since summer, it can take them this long to translate it. Yeah I guess they just thought nobody would be interested in reading a book about a game that’s kind of anime like, I don’t think too many light novels are released here and I’m guessing KH’s novels are like a light novel.
Yeah I think a lot of fans would enjoy them and it might actually get people interested in the story who don’t play video games.
Yes it does, though I think the fact that he only had 4 years worth of memories probably also played into his behaviour and maturity. Knowing this backstory actually helps explain Ven’s desire for more friends quite well.
Yeah I’d have figured it to have been 1 to 2 years, for it did seem they had spent some time together.

It would probably also clear up confusion. The scene where Ven's heart is destroyed is already brutal, but using a model that would actually reflect his current age would surely put another punch to the impact.
For the BBS Trio we do not know any definite ages. Ventus is scaled to be anywhere between 12 and 15 in BBS itself, although most people tend to go with 14/15. Aqua is said to be somewhere between 17 and 20 and Terra anywhere between 19 and 22. Definite is however only that Aqua is younger than Terra and that Ventus is the youngest of the trio.

It would surely drive the parallels to a boiling point.
I guess that has to do with blue eyes very often considered to be a mark of beauty, innocence and inner purity. More morally ambigious "heros" or anti-heros tend to have either violet eyes (like Lelouch from Code Geass), green or sometimes even black.
It's very subtle and not always noticeable due to lighting, but it is there. ;)

That reminds me of Aqua visiting Destiny Islands and actually saying that Sora "is the spitting image of Ven".
This truly has so much potential, lol, it would be a shame if this isn't explored and expanded later on.
Looking at it from another viewpoint Roxas could even be considered the living embodiment/proof of that tightly knitted connection between Sora and Ventus, as he takes something from both of them.
I also won't say that Roxas would be in the same connection of Sora and Ven, but he would have his own connection with both of them, so it would form a sort of triangle.

Definitely, if Ven’s model would reflect his age that scene's impact would be even bigger.
Well I think seeing he looks a lot like Roxas, who’s 14 in days and 15 in KH2 it would be a safe guess that he’s about 15. Yeah, those ages seem about right. I personally would guess aqua at 17 and Terra at 19. I really hope we learn their actual age at some point.

Yes that it would.
I gathered as much but it’s kind of funny considering that blue is actually quite a rare eye color and yet in KH for example most of our heroes and even some others have blue eyes.
Some have quite noticable difference shades of blue, like Aqua her eyes are a very light blue in comparison with the others.

Considering that I wonder how she and Terra will react when they see Sora, Roxas and Ven standing next to each other, or just Aqua’s reaction to seeing Sora again.
That’s true in a way he came from that bond.

I would say considering the crimes committed a fate worse than death would be appropriate at least for MX himself, although this would bear the inevitable danger that he may someday escape that fate. Like that while KH 3 is the end of the Xehanort saga, and Nomura does two more sagas with other villains, Xehanort ends up returning in the fourth saga or something.
Yep, also due to Terra being confirmed to be one of the tormented ones.
As for other members, that will depend on how many of them besides Terra actually are unwilling vessels.

Nomura confirms in the DDD Ultimania that Traverse can always change shape, it's a special property of that world.
Look at the Keyholes shown in KH 1 and BBS (when Aqua creates Castle Oblivion), they're "just" glowing Keyholes alone. If you look closely in DDD you'll see that the sleeping Keyholes are surrounded by a golden corona which carries also some similarity to a clock.

Well yeah, but not necessarily, also KH wouldn’t be the first series to bring back the first villain for a latter story arc.
Well I wouldn’t be surprised if there are others, though I guess Xehanort would probably have tried to have chosen more willing vessels.

Too bad we haven’t seen it in the games themselves but considering it’s nature it would make sense.
Yeah now that I’ve rewatched it it’s kind of obvious.... Oh well. I just hope Xehanort isn’t still lurking in the RoS.

I generally keep my own expectations low so I'm often positively surprised, *ggg*.
Seeing that Versus XIII is Nomura's last big involvement outside character design (which he will still do) with Final Fantasy and he expressed his aim to focus solely on KH after Versus is finished I guess it's safe to assume that he will be able to take things on better.
It's better not to expect too much, but sadly many people aren't that humble.
I do actually expect KH 3 to exceed all other games in the series in length, too. The sheer amount of stuff that needs to be addressed also practically requires it.

By now people are used to her being sidelined though, and giving her that needed first development arc before involving her in a major plot bomb like a saga-finale by starting with it in the next saga would carry fewer risks.
The combination of PoH and Keyblade wielder is an interesting concept, and probably also one of the developments Xehanort won't expect, so it could make for a good plot point to thwart Xehanort plans.
The only thing is that I do not have that much faith in the writers that they can pull this off without hurting either Kairi herself as a character due to bad handling or sideline other major characters too much.

Mostly, yeah, as I also have seen theories revolving around that, and loose following fans normally don't do theories.

Yeah it make it more enjoyable to play the games, if you don’t have your expectations too high.
I’m really looking forward to him simply focussing on the KH series, I wonder if there will be a noticeable difference.
Yeah, lots of fans seem to expect a lot of things to happen, some are kind of unreasonable.
The plot would definitely require the game to be longer than our average KH game, also considering how much more storage the blu ray has to offer it’s not unreasonable of it to be bigger and include more character models, worlds etc..

Yeah, though people that like Kairi’s character, like myself would feel a little disappointed. It would however make more sense to save it for the next saga instead of the final of this saga. Yes, this makes Kairi one of a kind right now, though I guess Ven comes close seeing he also has a heart of pure light. Well it all depends on whether Xehanort noticed Kairi’s ability or not, after all he’s been around her a few times and saw her use a keyblade before.
Yeah I’m really worried about how they’ll handle the situation, but I’ll hope for the best.

Well I guess newer fans might also struggle for a while and those would make theories.

That would be a neat entry point indeed and also an opportunity to involve Even, Vexen's human form, slightly in the main plot as he has inherited Vexen's memories and if he isn't one of the 13 darknesses he could help Sora & co. resolving the mysteries around Naminé.
Well, in CoM Riku noticed that Naminé has a different "smell" than Kairi when he meets her, deducing immediately that it was her who aided him in Kairi's form during the battle with Zexion.
That we do not have much on the "Birth by Sleep" and how the tormented ones can be saved is still a deliberate mystery on Nomura's part, which he elaborated upon in the Ultimania of Re: Coded:



According to this, Nomura intends to make the saving of the suffering characters one of the central story points of KH 3, which explains why he's so shady about it in DDD.

Well, if their sleep was totally peaceful and no pain/suffering there they wouldn't need to be saved, right?

Yep, and those scenes on DI were the opportunity for Jesse McCartney to show off his talent of voicing in different tones while Xion's VA had the sole line to speak in the whole game for her, lol.

Who says that Sora will go there alone? I'm sure we'll get party gameplay in the RoD with the objective of finding Aqua and Ansem the Wise. Doing the actual deed though will be most likely Sora's job.

Seeing the diversity of the fanbase this might indeed work. Mixing up the trios would however first need a significant story reason to do so and break up the already tuned teams who know each others battle styles and second require some deeper character interaction across the trios so that the characters know each other better.

It would be the solution with the least amount of complaints for sure.

It doesn’t really matter whether Even is in the new Org. or not, Ienzo could ask Sora & co. to help him collect Vexen’s old notes because he needs to look up something. Also Vexen’s reports could be quite interesting to read seeing he was involved with both Namine and the replicas.
Yeah, but still the resemblance is uncanny. I guess he just saw Namine as her own person and that might have something to do with him not seeing it.

Yeah, Nomura wanting to save that story for KH3 is probably why we barely got anything on it in DDD.

That’s true and we wouldn’t have this story for KH3.

Yeah, Jesse really got to shine on the DI.

Well I wasn’t really trying to imply that, seeing I’m sure that at least Donald and Goofy will accompany him there. Yeah doing the deed does fall upon Sora.

Yes there would need to be a reason within the story, but I could imagine that the occasion where it would make sense would present itself naturally. But yes the characters would need deeper interaction between the trios.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

It definitely is bitter irony that he had to go through that to end up with a loving “family”. Yeah, though Xehanort did actually show pitty on Ven when he thought Ven was going to die and brought him to DI, which in the end saved him.
I can imagine even teens having difficulties coping with such a moment, after all it’s pretty much live or death and confronting something scary such as giving in to your darkness.
Ven is the youngest keyblade wielder we’ve actively seen wield one. I think it would be, kinda odd to see someone at SRK age in BBS actively wield a keyblade.
Even that "pity" of Xehanort has been up to debate already considering that Xehanort doesn't think too highly of DI (prison) and even more important that he himself brought Ven into that near-death state. Getting pity from the bastard who did that to him in the first place would practically only adding insult to injury, so I don't really see why some would use that as an example to show something positive about Xehanort.

Probably, considering all the other circumstances.
That's why I would give Ven trainining under MX at most two years if not less because I cannot really imagine a child younger than 8/9 starting to wield a Keyblade.
SRK were 4/5 during BBS and although Sora and Riku were already practicing with wooden swords, it would be definitely odd having them already swing a Keyblade. (They probably wouldn't even be able to lift it up, lol).

We’ll it’s possible, but I won’t hold my breath.
Yeah I don’t get the manga’s german release, we’re at Vol. 3 of days and Vol. 5 has been out in Japan since summer, it can take them this long to translate it. Yeah I guess they just thought nobody would be interested in reading a book about a game that’s kind of anime like, I don’t think too many light novels are released here and I’m guessing KH’s novels are like a light novel.
Yeah I think a lot of fans would enjoy them and it might actually get people interested in the story who don’t play video games.
Yes it does, though I think the fact that he only had 4 years worth of memories probably also played into his behaviour and maturity. Knowing this backstory actually helps explain Ven’s desire for more friends quite well.
Yeah I’d have figured it to have been 1 to 2 years, for it did seem they had spent some time together.

Definitely, if Ven’s model would reflect his age that scene's impact would be even bigger.
Well I think seeing he looks a lot like Roxas, who’s 14 in days and 15 in KH2 it would be a safe guess that he’s about 15. Yeah, those ages seem about right. I personally would guess aqua at 17 and Terra at 19. I really hope we learn their actual age at some point.

Yes that it would.
I gathered as much but it’s kind of funny considering that blue is actually quite a rare eye color and yet in KH for example most of our heroes and even some others have blue eyes.
Some have quite noticable difference shades of blue, like Aqua her eyes are a very light blue in comparison with the others.

Considering that I wonder how she and Terra will react when they see Sora, Roxas and Ven standing next to each other, or just Aqua’s reaction to seeing Sora again.
That’s true in a way he came from that bond.
I don't expect it, but keep the possibility in mind.
It's somewhat strange anyways because the mangaka decided to put the KH 2 manga on hiatus, making the Days-manga instead. It's somewhat confusing, why don't finish what has been begun earlier first?
They are definitely light novels, and while they tell the same story, they focus way more on character interaction and thoughts than the games ever managed to do, so there is definitely a big difference to the games.
I remember the novels .hack//Another Birth and several other novels of .hack were released here, as I have most of them and other light novel series like Kyou Kara Maou are released here as well.

The novels would also greatly help in understanding characters better which the games more than once fail to properly show. Not only regarding Ven, but also several other character's "weird" behaviour could be understood better if such information we can get from secondary sources would be made widely known.
Sure, these things all play into Ven's mindset to a degree, I wasn't implying that one of them is the sole influence.
Two years is the absolute maximum I'd willing to give considering Ven's age and the fact that he apparently already could summon his personal Keyblade (Lea in DDD had difficulties summoning his despite being aided by Merlin and the fairies in a time chamber to speed up things).

Maybe even too big impact, I don't know how Disney's stance is on seeing minors tortured like that. After all, the scene when Xehanort rips Ven's heart apart is pretty graphic for KH standards and he already looks pretty fragile, changing his model to a child-like one reflecting his age of 10/11 would be realistic, but I don't know if they would still be able to show it like that. Nomura already avoided to show when Xehanort blasted Eraqus in the back because he deemed it too cruel, and that was with an adult.
It's funny how fans continue to discuss about ages when in the bigger scheme of things they don't even mean that much. I also do not think that we know Lea's actual age.

I think that can be handwaved with being a fantasy universe where blue eyes are much more common. Even several Org members have blue eyes (like Xaldin and Zexion), although they're certainly not "heroes". It seems really be a common issue in the KH universe (and I believe the Japanese have a thing for blue eyes in general).
Yep, that's what makes the fact that Sora, Roxas and Ven have the exact same color even more stunning (and logical in hindsight when looking at what it means).

For Sora and Ven I can certainly imagine them doing the "hands-behind-head" gesture in tandem and "attacking" people around them with cuteness-overload, and when Terra sees Roxas and Ven together he asks Aqua to pinch him in order to make sure he's not dreaming. ;P
Considering what we saw in Blank Points I would say Aqua's reaction to Sora is very easily predictable.


Well yeah, but not necessarily, also KH wouldn’t be the first series to bring back the first villain for a latter story arc.
Well I wouldn’t be surprised if there are others, though I guess Xehanort would probably have tried to have chosen more willing vessels.

Too bad we haven’t seen it in the games themselves but considering it’s nature it would make sense.
Yeah now that I’ve rewatched it it’s kind of obvious.... Oh well. I just hope Xehanort isn’t still lurking in the RoS.



Yeah it make it more enjoyable to play the games, if you don’t have your expectations too high.
I’m really looking forward to him simply focussing on the KH series, I wonder if there will be a noticeable difference.
Yeah, lots of fans seem to expect a lot of things to happen, some are kind of unreasonable.
The plot would definitely require the game to be longer than our average KH game, also considering how much more storage the blu ray has to offer it’s not unreasonable of it to be bigger and include more character models, worlds etc..

Yeah, though people that like Kairi’s character, like myself would feel a little disappointed. It would however make more sense to save it for the next saga instead of the final of this saga. Yes, this makes Kairi one of a kind right now, though I guess Ven comes close seeing he also has a heart of pure light. Well it all depends on whether Xehanort noticed Kairi’s ability or not, after all he’s been around her a few times and saw her use a keyblade before.
Yeah I’m really worried about how they’ll handle the situation, but I’ll hope for the best.

Well I guess newer fans might also struggle for a while and those would make theories.
It would surely depend on how this fate worse than death is working, it can be made so it isn't reversible. Yeah, KH also isn't the first series to include bringing back characters, and considering the fanbase is always bickering over such things I guess there would be even those who would be ok with Xehanort returning yet another time somewhere in the fourth of fifth saga (if KH even gets so many, I could also easily imagine that Nomura does only this one new saga or two so he comes to three sagas in total).
So far the only willing vessels that we know of are Braig and Isa, and even the latter is already disputed by the fandom.
Going by that, Sora using his heart connection powers to free the unwilling Seekers of Darkness seems almost like a Deus Ex Machina to weaken Xehanort's faction, but hey, Xehanort coming up with time travel was almost a Deus Ex Machina for him too. :p

There is so much not shown in the games that would help understanding and appreciating the characters as well as the universe itself better. On this note, one might argue that the games are still way too short in general (and waste too much space on mini-games and multiplayer-schmuck).
Who knows, that may be something for the opening hour of kH 3, to find out why Sora still hasn't returned from his trip.

To be blunt I hope there will be a noticeable difference, mainly in the department of more focus put into true character interaction and development. When of such a big cast of original characters only three are developed truly meaningful, the biggest bunch so half-half and some nearly not at all (Hello Kairi!), there needs to be some more effort in direction and using the characters. As Director Nomura can remedy that and do better by just putting some more effort into it, which should be possible time-wise when he has nothing to do with FF anymore except occassionally providing some character designs.
That's also normal though, especially since different fans consider different things to be more important, so unreasonable expectations are bound to happen somewhat.
They can only win if they use the room of the blu-ray properly and really take their time to flesh out things instead of just mentioning plot points or character relationships in passing. Much of the ire KH 2 got was also because while it had an interesting premise, way too much of the plot was rushed and not properly fleshed out. KH 2 Final Mix filled in a lot of content and while it is already much better, it's still far from actual high tier storytelling.

I can understand that, although I primary concern with this is that handling it like that may cause more Kairi-hate in the end if it is handled wrong in KH 3, mainly if fans of other characters will feel like the focus on Kairi is robbing them of learning more of their characters role in the finale.
I remember much ire directed against Xion not only because of her sudden appearance or that she takes even away screentime from both Axel and Roxas, but also because many Org fans felt they learned not enough about the other members of the Organisation.
Ventus may come close, but unlike Kairi his heart of pure light is not natural so I could imagine that, if there are any special powers/abilities that come with having a heart of pure light Kairi would be able to understand and use these powers much more easily and naturally than Ven does and I dare to make the guess that her heart might be also somewhat more resilent due to being of pure light naturally.
Who knows, lol, maybe Kairi can later teach Ven to do something with his pure heart? *ggg*
I don't know if Xehanort even knows that Kairi can wield a Keyblade, as not even Aqua who accidentally made the ceremony knows that.
Hoping for the best is actually the only viable thing to do...:D

It doesn’t really matter whether Even is in the new Org. or not, Ienzo could ask Sora & co. to help him collect Vexen’s old notes because he needs to look up something. Also Vexen’s reports could be quite interesting to read seeing he was involved with both Namine and the replicas.
Yeah, but still the resemblance is uncanny. I guess he just saw Namine as her own person and that might have something to do with him not seeing it.

Yeah, Nomura wanting to save that story for KH3 is probably why we barely got anything on it in DDD.

That’s true and we wouldn’t have this story for KH3.

Yeah, Jesse really got to shine on the DI.

Well I wasn’t really trying to imply that, seeing I’m sure that at least Donald and Goofy will accompany him there. Yeah doing the deed does fall upon Sora.

Yes there would need to be a reason within the story, but I could imagine that the occasion where it would make sense would present itself naturally. But yes the characters would need deeper interaction between the trios.

Indeed, indeed, all this would be a convenient reason to include Ienzo and/or Even some more in the main story, and provide more insight into the replica project and other stuff of all the heart-research they did.
Riku's stance on these issues might be something interesting to see anyways. He was nowhere indicated to be as biased as DiZ was in the matter, but I wonder if he saw them really as their completely own individuals (like Sora does) or something between the two extreme points (DiZ and Sora).

It just remains to hope that since he wanted to save that story for KH 3 actually also results in it getting enough detailed coverance. In KH 2 we went looking for Riku and the King, but stopped that along the way to join the Chinese Army or sing Hakuna Matata without it actually having any impact on the main story.

Yep.

It really catched my attention, also mainly because when Corey Burton voices both Claude Frollo and Yen Sid, you immediately know it's the same guy because of how some words are pronounced. With Roxas and Ven on DI you have to hear it twice to realize it's the same voice actor since Ven's voice sounds quite a pitch higher than Roxas'.

Considering who the enemy is, I would actually say it would be wise on the side of the good guys to let no one roam the worlds alone, as that would be an invitation towards the 13 seekers to try something.

In the end it depends all on what Nomura has even planned for the new saga and if even all of the trios will be carried over in a main role.
 

AdrianXXII

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Even that "pity" of Xehanort has been up to debate already considering that Xehanort doesn't think too highly of DI (prison) and even more important that he himself brought Ven into that near-death state. Getting pity from the bastard who did that to him in the first place would practically only adding insult to injury, so I don't really see why some would use that as an example to show something positive about Xehanort.

Probably, considering all the other circumstances.
That's why I would give Ven trainining under MX at most two years if not less because I cannot really imagine a child younger than 8/9 starting to wield a Keyblade.
SRK were 4/5 during BBS and although Sora and Riku were already practicing with wooden swords, it would be definitely odd having them already swing a Keyblade. (They probably wouldn't even be able to lift it up, lol).

Well yes, he didn’t think highly of DI, but he admitted that he still had an emotional connection to it in his report. But yes it doesn’t really speak to well for him still having some good in him, after all this was over 10 years ago and he was really responsible for it, he didn’t even actively try to prevent Ven from dieing.

Yeah, especially considering how Terra’s Keyblade seemed to be bigger than Riku, I have a hard time imagining a 5 year old kid swinging one of those around unless they can adjust to their wielder. Then again Mickey’s actually not much taller, so I guess a 4/5 year old could do it.

I don't expect it, but keep the possibility in mind.
It's somewhat strange anyways because the mangaka decided to put the KH 2 manga on hiatus, making the Days-manga instead. It's somewhat confusing, why don't finish what has been begun earlier first?
They are definitely light novels, and while they tell the same story, they focus way more on character interaction and thoughts than the games ever managed to do, so there is definitely a big difference to the games.
I remember the novels .hack//Another Birth and several other novels of .hack were released here, as I have most of them and other light novel series like Kyou Kara Maou are released here as well.

The novels would also greatly help in understanding characters better which the games more than once fail to properly show. Not only regarding Ven, but also several other character's "weird" behaviour could be understood better if such information we can get from secondary sources would be made widely known.
Sure, these things all play into Ven's mindset to a degree, I wasn't implying that one of them is the sole influence.
Two years is the absolute maximum I'd willing to give considering Ven's age and the fact that he apparently already could summon his personal Keyblade (Lea in DDD had difficulties summoning his despite being aided by Merlin and the fairies in a time chamber to speed up things).

Maybe even too big impact, I don't know how Disney's stance is on seeing minors tortured like that. After all, the scene when Xehanort rips Ven's heart apart is pretty graphic for KH standards and he already looks pretty fragile, changing his model to a child-like one reflecting his age of 10/11 would be realistic, but I don't know if they would still be able to show it like that. Nomura already avoided to show when Xehanort blasted Eraqus in the back because he deemed it too cruel, and that was with an adult.
It's funny how fans continue to discuss about ages when in the bigger scheme of things they don't even mean that much. I also do not think that we know Lea's actual age.

I think that can be handwaved with being a fantasy universe where blue eyes are much more common. Even several Org members have blue eyes (like Xaldin and Zexion), although they're certainly not "heroes". It seems really be a common issue in the KH universe (and I believe the Japanese have a thing for blue eyes in general).
Yep, that's what makes the fact that Sora, Roxas and Ven have the exact same color even more stunning (and logical in hindsight when looking at what it means).

For Sora and Ven I can certainly imagine them doing the "hands-behind-head" gesture in tandem and "attacking" people around them with cuteness-overload, and when Terra sees Roxas and Ven together he asks Aqua to pinch him in order to make sure he's not dreaming. ;P
Considering what we saw in Blank Points I would say Aqua's reaction to Sora is very easily predictable.

Yeah, it’s always a possibility.
Well I guess the mangaka felt that it was better to tell the story of Days before finishing the KH2 story, which I can somewhat understand seeing I think knowing Days story can actually contribute to KH2’s story. It would probably be more logical to just finish the first manga though.
I personally rarely see a light novel, though I guess they do publish them. I guess Square Enix just doesn’t think it’s going to be successful overseas, too bad.

Yeah, I could imagine that seeing in a book it’s easier to explore the mental state of a character, also it’s easier to focus on characters, who aren’t the main character.
I’d actually enjoy getting a little more backstory or any other information on our main cast.
Well right now, it’s unclear what’s required to summon your own keyblade seeing both Riku and Sora could summon the Kingdom Key which was a personal Keyblade in KH1. We really know too little about what’s needed to summon one’s own or how a keyblade wielder can summon someone else’s keyblade as their own, like Aqua did in the secret episode with Eraqus’ Keyblade.

Well that’s true, but I think they could simply shorten the scene and have it take place mostly unseen. I just feel it helps the player get into it if the models reflect what they should, also it just helps tell when this happened.
Yeah, I think it’s just something some of us fans enjoy and are curious about. I don’t know why but I like knowing what the age of the characters is. Axel’s age in particular interests me, seeing I’d just like to know how big the age difference between him and his two best friends.

It’s probably the best thing to do. The Japanese definitely have something for blue eyes seeing a lot of their main characters seems to have blue eyes.

lol.
Yeah, it’s kind of predictable how Aqua might react though, they could still surprise us though.

It would surely depend on how this fate worse than death is working, it can be made so it isn't reversible. Yeah, KH also isn't the first series to include bringing back characters, and considering the fanbase is always bickering over such things I guess there would be even those who would be ok with Xehanort returning yet another time somewhere in the fourth of fifth saga (if KH even gets so many, I could also easily imagine that Nomura does only this one new saga or two so he comes to three sagas in total).
So far the only willing vessels that we know of are Braig and Isa, and even the latter is already disputed by the fandom.
Going by that, Sora using his heart connection powers to free the unwilling Seekers of Darkness seems almost like a Deus Ex Machina to weaken Xehanort's faction, but hey, Xehanort coming up with time travel was almost a Deus Ex Machina for him too. :p

There is so much not shown in the games that would help understanding and appreciating the characters as well as the universe itself better. On this note, one might argue that the games are still way too short in general (and waste too much space on mini-games and multiplayer-schmuck).
Who knows, that may be something for the opening hour of kH 3, to find out why Sora still hasn't returned from his trip.

To be blunt I hope there will be a noticeable difference, mainly in the department of more focus put into true character interaction and development. When of such a big cast of original characters only three are developed truly meaningful, the biggest bunch so half-half and some nearly not at all (Hello Kairi!), there needs to be some more effort in direction and using the characters. As Director Nomura can remedy that and do better by just putting some more effort into it, which should be possible time-wise when he has nothing to do with FF anymore except occassionally providing some character designs.
That's also normal though, especially since different fans consider different things to be more important, so unreasonable expectations are bound to happen somewhat.
They can only win if they use the room of the blu-ray properly and really take their time to flesh out things instead of just mentioning plot points or character relationships in passing. Much of the ire KH 2 got was also because while it had an interesting premise, way too much of the plot was rushed and not properly fleshed out. KH 2 Final Mix filled in a lot of content and while it is already much better, it's still far from actual high tier storytelling.

I can understand that, although I primary concern with this is that handling it like that may cause more Kairi-hate in the end if it is handled wrong in KH 3, mainly if fans of other characters will feel like the focus on Kairi is robbing them of learning more of their characters role in the finale.
I remember much ire directed against Xion not only because of her sudden appearance or that she takes even away screentime from both Axel and Roxas, but also because many Org fans felt they learned not enough about the other members of the Organisation.
Ventus may come close, but unlike Kairi his heart of pure light is not natural so I could imagine that, if there are any special powers/abilities that come with having a heart of pure light Kairi would be able to understand and use these powers much more easily and naturally than Ven does and I dare to make the guess that her heart might be also somewhat more resilent due to being of pure light naturally.
Who knows, lol, maybe Kairi can later teach Ven to do something with his pure heart? *ggg*
I don't know if Xehanort even knows that Kairi can wield a Keyblade, as not even Aqua who accidentally made the ceremony knows that.
Hoping for the best is actually the only viable thing to do...:D

Yeah, I could imagine there would be some fans that wouldn’t mind and others would absolutly hate it.
Personally I think they're probably going to try and do at least 3 sagas. I wouldn’t mind if they did up to 5 sagas, though I hope the next few sagas don’t take 10+ years each or I’d be in my 70s by the 5th Saga.
Vanitas could potentially be another willing vessel, that is if he even is a vessel. I don’t get why so many people are so strongly behind Isa, personally I think it’s pretty likely Isa is a willing vessel.
Well it would actually be pretty natural and work with what we’ve been hinted at with both Sora’s and Xehanort’s “heart powers”.

I agree the games do kind of feel too short, it would be nice if they spent more time and memory space on world building, instead of mini-games.
Well yeah, but personally I have the feeling the opening hour would probably have Kairi as the tutorial playable character, seeing she’s just starting out so for her to learn the basics would make sense story wise, but they did hint that sora’s late, so that could be something that’s going on in the background during the tutorial.

It would definitely be nice if there were more focus put on really character interaction and development. I’d probably also be happy if they stayed around the quality of BBS and DDD. Though I could see Nomura doing things a little more focused once he can solely focus on KH.
This is true, though some expectations really just seem to come out of the blue.
For KH3 they definitely should take full advantage of what the PS3 has to offer and it has a lot to offer. I think even the KH Team wasn’t really happy with the end result of KH2, wonder if they’ll tweak it some more for KH2.5’s release.

That’s true and Kairi has had enough hate in the past, luckily it’s gone down quite a bit in recent years. I can understand that, I wouldn’t be too happy either if my favorite characters got shelved in such a important part of the story.
Well that’s mainly because they had their own opinion/idea of what the game was going to be and when it turned out not to be that they were disappointed, or that’s my impression on it. Though I can understand that they would have liked to have gotten more on their favorite characters.
Kairi probably can use the power of light a lot more naturally and has probably additional powers, because of her status as a PoH.
I’d actually like to see her teach Ven how to use the light, it would be a natural way for those two to interact.
Well there’s also the fact that Aqua could tell that Terra had done it with Riku so, it seems one can tell somehow.

Indeed, indeed, all this would be a convenient reason to include Ienzo and/or Even some more in the main story, and provide more insight into the replica project and other stuff of all the heart-research they did.
Riku's stance on these issues might be something interesting to see anyways. He was nowhere indicated to be as biased as DiZ was in the matter, but I wonder if he saw them really as their completely own individuals (like Sora does) or something between the two extreme points (DiZ and Sora).

It just remains to hope that since he wanted to save that story for KH 3 actually also results in it getting enough detailed coverance. In KH 2 we went looking for Riku and the King, but stopped that along the way to join the Chinese Army or sing Hakuna Matata without it actually having any impact on the main story.

Yep.

It really catched my attention, also mainly because when Corey Burton voices both Claude Frollo and Yen Sid, you immediately know it's the same guy because of how some words are pronounced. With Roxas and Ven on DI you have to hear it twice to realize it's the same voice actor since Ven's voice sounds quite a pitch higher than Roxas'.

Considering who the enemy is, I would actually say it would be wise on the side of the good guys to let no one roam the worlds alone, as that would be an invitation towards the 13 seekers to try something.

In the end it depends all on what Nomura has even planned for the new saga and if even all of the trios will be carried over in a main role.

This would also probably please the fans of those characters. I definitely hope we get more insight into the replica project and the heart research. What also would be neat is if Ienzo and/or Even would show/tell us just how a Emblem Heartless created and if they multiply like normal Heartless.
That would be interesting to explore, though I don’t know if we’ll get the chance to do so.

I’ll try and stay positive and believe that he’s going to try and cover as many details as he can. I think the reasons why the worlds didn’t fit in too well ,was probably also partly because of them having to rush it.

Yeah for one of our heroes to travel alone somewhere is just begging for trouble. Especially with an enemy like Xehanort.

Well considering how he’s built them up it would seem odd, if all of the sudden they’d just become secondary characters or even fade into the background. I think they’ll probably carry over in a main role.
 

Reagan Rayden

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

So we know Xigbar is a vessel, but is it possible perhaps that YMX went back in time to get Braig as well?

Particularly post-BBS/pre-KH1 Braig.
 

Zettaflare

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Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

So we know Xigbar is a vessel, but is it possible perhaps that YMX went back in time to get Braig as well?

Particularly post-BBS/pre-KH1 Braig.

Im pretty sure that braig was who we saw in kh ddd. I think nomura stated that he was only calling himself xigbar as a way to symbolize his loyalty to xehanort. Having two xigbars/braigs would be a bit pointless. Even though he's my favorite character, im not sure i could handle two of them.
 
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