Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness

[Nayru's Love]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Well it's not impossible, and it's actually been an idea I've pondered. The "Xigbar" we see in DDD could be from the past, whereas the reborn Braig could be another vessel himself. It'd be kinda ironic for the second Org. member to take up two seats.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Well it's not impossible, and it's actually been an idea I've pondered. The "Xigbar" we see in DDD could be from the past, whereas the reborn Braig could be another vessel himself. It'd be kinda ironic for the second Org. member to take up two seats.

While its not impossible, i doubt nomura is going that route. We already have a good idea who three of the hooded figures are, plus nomura stated that the other three are going to be new characters. Plus having two versions of essentially the same person is kind of silly(xehanort is the exception of course). One xigbar is enough, but thats just me

 

[Nayru's Love]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

While its not impossible, i doubt nomura is going that route. We already have a good idea who three of the hooded figures are, plus nomura stated that the other three are going to be new characters.

It's been a while since I've read up on Nomura interviews. Mind linking me to the source?

Plus having two versions of essentially the same person is kind of silly(xehanort is the exception of course).

Oh, there's this series that I know you'd hate. It's called Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

It's been a while since I've read up on Nomura interviews. Mind linking me to the source?


Oh, there's this series that I know you'd hate. It's called Kingdom Hearts.

KH13.com - Kingdom Hearts - (Spoilers) Kingdom Hearts 3D Ultimania: Nomura interviews completely translated - Kingdom Hearts 3D [Dream Drop Distance] - KH13.com Forum
There you go. After reading the interview a second time myself, i could be wrong about the status of the 6 hooded figures.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Well yes, he didn’t think highly of DI, but he admitted that he still had an emotional connection to it in his report. But yes it doesn’t really speak to well for him still having some good in him, after all this was over 10 years ago and he was really responsible for it, he didn’t even actively try to prevent Ven from dieing.

Yeah, especially considering how Terra’s Keyblade seemed to be bigger than Riku, I have a hard time imagining a 5 year old kid swinging one of those around unless they can adjust to their wielder. Then again Mickey’s actually not much taller, so I guess a 4/5 year old could do it.

Having an emotional connection is one thing, but that doesn't mean it has to be a positive one. Also since Xehanort infers in the reports that bringing Ven's failing body there was the first time he set foot on that world again after he left as a youth, which was decades ago.
Exactly, that's why I won't accept that as an excuse or a reasonable attempt to show Xehanort in a more positive light. He caused that whole misery out of his own will and calculation, it wasn't even an accident. So feeling "pity" is highly hypocritical.

Yeah, it’s always a possibility.
Well I guess the mangaka felt that it was better to tell the story of Days before finishing the KH2 story, which I can somewhat understand seeing I think knowing Days story can actually contribute to KH2’s story. It would probably be more logical to just finish the first manga though.
I personally rarely see a light novel, though I guess they do publish them. I guess Square Enix just doesn’t think it’s going to be successful overseas, too bad.

Yeah, I could imagine that seeing in a book it’s easier to explore the mental state of a character, also it’s easier to focus on characters, who aren’t the main character.
I’d actually enjoy getting a little more backstory or any other information on our main cast.
Well right now, it’s unclear what’s required to summon your own keyblade seeing both Riku and Sora could summon the Kingdom Key which was a personal Keyblade in KH1. We really know too little about what’s needed to summon one’s own or how a keyblade wielder can summon someone else’s keyblade as their own, like Aqua did in the secret episode with Eraqus’ Keyblade.

Well that’s true, but I think they could simply shorten the scene and have it take place mostly unseen. I just feel it helps the player get into it if the models reflect what they should, also it just helps tell when this happened.
Yeah, I think it’s just something some of us fans enjoy and are curious about. I don’t know why but I like knowing what the age of the characters is. Axel’s age in particular interests me, seeing I’d just like to know how big the age difference between him and his two best friends.

It’s probably the best thing to do. The Japanese definitely have something for blue eyes seeing a lot of their main characters seems to have blue eyes.

lol.
Yeah, it’s kind of predictable how Aqua might react though, they could still surprise us though.

Lol, with the games we also hadn't that advantage, KH 2 was out way before with finished story than Days ever saw the light of the day.
I know quite a few light novels from the manga shops I frequent, although one does have to admit that none of them is from the publisher who does the KH Mangas.

Yep, that's why I often like books better than games (or films, for that matter), as you can do so much more with the characters and setting in written form. Even the Lord of the Rings with three infamously long films (and I do think Peter Jackson did a good job) have still vast amount of stuff omitted that can be found in the books, despite the films already being that long.
I had a small dream for a longer time that it would be neat if Nomura would release an actual "Jiminy's Journal" at the end of the Xehanort Saga with plenty of his artwork and detailed character bios for most of the central characters, lol.
True dat, all we know is that despite the ceremony a Keyblade itself still needs to choose you or you won't be able to summon one.

That's also possible, but shorten it or make it mostly unseen would again take part of the impact away. Models being the proper age would help immensely for placing it in the timeline though, yep.
From how he looks I would place Lea in his early twenties, probably just one or two years older than Terra was in BBS. After all, it looked like Lea and Isa were about Ven's age in BBS, so ten years later Lea would be around 24/25. The age difference between Xion, Naminé and Roxas becomes something iffy anyways depending on which age you look. In terms of physical age they're 14/15, but chronologically they're only one year old.

Yup.

One derpy surprise I could imagine though is when Sora and Aqua meet is that Ven's heart will react inside Sora, causing some discomfort on both sides.

Yeah, I could imagine there would be some fans that wouldn’t mind and others would absolutly hate it.
Personally I think they're probably going to try and do at least 3 sagas. I wouldn’t mind if they did up to 5 sagas, though I hope the next few sagas don’t take 10+ years each or I’d be in my 70s by the 5th Saga.
Vanitas could potentially be another willing vessel, that is if he even is a vessel. I don’t get why so many people are so strongly behind Isa, personally I think it’s pretty likely Isa is a willing vessel.
Well it would actually be pretty natural and work with what we’ve been hinted at with both Sora’s and Xehanort’s “heart powers”.

I agree the games do kind of feel too short, it would be nice if they spent more time and memory space on world building, instead of mini-games.
Well yeah, but personally I have the feeling the opening hour would probably have Kairi as the tutorial playable character, seeing she’s just starting out so for her to learn the basics would make sense story wise, but they did hint that sora’s late, so that could be something that’s going on in the background during the tutorial.

It would definitely be nice if there were more focus put on really character interaction and development. I’d probably also be happy if they stayed around the quality of BBS and DDD. Though I could see Nomura doing things a little more focused once he can solely focus on KH.
This is true, though some expectations really just seem to come out of the blue.
For KH3 they definitely should take full advantage of what the PS3 has to offer and it has a lot to offer. I think even the KH Team wasn’t really happy with the end result of KH2, wonder if they’ll tweak it some more for KH2.5’s release.

That’s true and Kairi has had enough hate in the past, luckily it’s gone down quite a bit in recent years. I can understand that, I wouldn’t be too happy either if my favorite characters got shelved in such a important part of the story.
Well that’s mainly because they had their own opinion/idea of what the game was going to be and when it turned out not to be that they were disappointed, or that’s my impression on it. Though I can understand that they would have liked to have gotten more on their favorite characters.
Kairi probably can use the power of light a lot more naturally and has probably additional powers, because of her status as a PoH.
I’d actually like to see her teach Ven how to use the light, it would be a natural way for those two to interact.
Well there’s also the fact that Aqua could tell that Terra had done it with Riku so, it seems one can tell somehow.

As always in the KH fandom. This series has probably so many base breakers already it isn't even worth listing them.
Three would be a first "magical" number where Nomura could stop. Either because it's a "trio" and that would go with the theme-numbering of KH or because of the narrative of Prologue-Main part-Finale/Epilogue. In the latter case, the Xehanort saga would be just the "Prologue"-saga which introduces all the most important recurring major characters (the three trios, Naminé, Mickey etc.) and show them coming together through the first major foe (Xehanort), the second saga would be the main part where these characters get all fleshed out to the max with more new semi-major characters introduced white the third saga introduces the last and most powerful enemy whose defeat will draw the story to a close for all of the characters with eventual further adventures left to the imagination of the fans.
Vanitas is a tricky case since he, according to Nomura, has not a physical form right now, although it is strongly hinted that despite Ven trashing him in their final fight his consciousness still exists somewhere. His golden eyes do indicate severe Xehanort-influence though.
I guess for Isa it's many people looking too strongly on his old self from BBS and his former friendship with Lea. In Days he had golden eyes however right from the beginning, Axel noted that there was something pretty awry about him and Nomura hinting that Braig's and Isa's situation being the same leads me to believe more that he's in it willingly just like Braig.
True, and fans cry about Deus Ex Machina about nearly every plot twist anyways, so...

I guess that's another disadvantage of the medium video game, I remember critics already complaining about the high amounts of cutscenes KH 2 had, despite the story of KH 2 still not being presented in a wellrounded manner overall. You need some nifty and elaborate gameplay quirks and gimmicks so players won't get bored. There would be the danger that the game becomes more of a visual novel than a RPG.
It's definitely a possibility, although they could of course also just use Lea for that or make the tutorial directly with Riku or Mickey who are already looking for Sora.

Would be greatly appreciated if Nomura goes a bit further in that department.
Yeah, that's why they made KH2 Final Mix, which has vast improvements over the original KH 2 unlike the first Final Mix which only added several smaller things.
That would depend on how many people they would detach for the second collection, although I would be already satisfied with just getting the FM content around here.

Yeah, that's probably because with characters such as Xion there are more "scapegoats" to rant at. It is funny though as I heard several times that only the western fandom (US, EU, AUS) is so outright hateful towards several characters while the Japanese fandom has this way more rarely.
That's what I meant regarding Kairi's PoH status. Ventus may have a heart of the same type in terms of element, but the "Prince of Heart" he's inofficially called sometimes is completely fabricated, so while I would assume that he may be able to do some things the Princesses can do as well, I suspect it would be only on a smaller scale and less effective than the Princesses can do.
For that Xehanort would still have to scrutinize Kairi, which he so far didn't manage to do.

This would also probably please the fans of those characters. I definitely hope we get more insight into the replica project and the heart research. What also would be neat is if Ienzo and/or Even would show/tell us just how a Emblem Heartless created and if they multiply like normal Heartless.
That would be interesting to explore, though I don’t know if we’ll get the chance to do so.

I’ll try and stay positive and believe that he’s going to try and cover as many details as he can. I think the reasons why the worlds didn’t fit in too well ,was probably also partly because of them having to rush it.

Yeah for one of our heroes to travel alone somewhere is just begging for trouble. Especially with an enemy like Xehanort.

Well considering how he’s built them up it would seem odd, if all of the sudden they’d just become secondary characters or even fade into the background. I think they’ll probably carry over in a main role.

Speaking of the research and the replica project just shows just how much stuff there still is that would be worth to be explored, lol.

As it's the finale and so many opens plots still (not even counting the new mysteries DDD made up) I would expect him to cover as much as he can. I would find it pretty lame if we would need three our four Ultimania interviews from Nomura to fill in 50% of the plot.

True, them all being set up to be rescued just for the final battle with Xehanort alone would come over a bit cheap.
Oh, I doubt they'll fade into the background completely in any case, but them being degraded from major main characters to major support characters is certainly a possibility depending on how many new characters are introduced in the new saga, although I certainly wouldn't like that.

So we know Xigbar is a vessel, but is it possible perhaps that YMX went back in time to get Braig as well?

Particularly post-BBS/pre-KH1 Braig.

With all the time travel shenanigans it is certainly possible, but wouldn't that be a little redundant? Unlike Roxas and Sora or Naminé and Kairi, there isn't really much of a difference between Xigbar and Braig.

Well it's not impossible, and it's actually been an idea I've pondered. The "Xigbar" we see in DDD could be from the past, whereas the reborn Braig could be another vessel himself. It'd be kinda ironic for the second Org. member to take up two seats.

Didn't Nomura explicitly point out that some of the shown members of the new Org weren't from the past?
As far as I am informed, only Young Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Xemnas are from the past.

plus nomura stated that the other three are going to be new characters.

Nomura never stated anything about completely new characters, he only spoke about people who were not seen in DDD in person.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Having an emotional connection is one thing, but that doesn't mean it has to be a positive one. Also since Xehanort infers in the reports that bringing Ven's failing body there was the first time he set foot on that world again after he left as a youth, which was decades ago.
Exactly, that's why I won't accept that as an excuse or a reasonable attempt to show Xehanort in a more positive light. He caused that whole misery out of his own will and calculation, it wasn't even an accident. So feeling "pity" is highly hypocritical.



Lol, with the games we also hadn't that advantage, KH 2 was out way before with finished story than Days ever saw the light of the day.
I know quite a few light novels from the manga shops I frequent, although one does have to admit that none of them is from the publisher who does the KH Mangas.

Yep, that's why I often like books better than games (or films, for that matter), as you can do so much more with the characters and setting in written form. Even the Lord of the Rings with three infamously long films (and I do think Peter Jackson did a good job) have still vast amount of stuff omitted that can be found in the books, despite the films already being that long.
I had a small dream for a longer time that it would be neat if Nomura would release an actual "Jiminy's Journal" at the end of the Xehanort Saga with plenty of his artwork and detailed character bios for most of the central characters, lol.
True dat, all we know is that despite the ceremony a Keyblade itself still needs to choose you or you won't be able to summon one.

That's also possible, but shorten it or make it mostly unseen would again take part of the impact away. Models being the proper age would help immensely for placing it in the timeline though, yep.
From how he looks I would place Lea in his early twenties, probably just one or two years older than Terra was in BBS. After all, it looked like Lea and Isa were about Ven's age in BBS, so ten years later Lea would be around 24/25. The age difference between Xion, Naminé and Roxas becomes something iffy anyways depending on which age you look. In terms of physical age they're 14/15, but chronologically they're only one year old.

Yup.

One derpy surprise I could imagine though is when Sora and Aqua meet is that Ven's heart will react inside Sora, causing some discomfort on both sides.



As always in the KH fandom. This series has probably so many base breakers already it isn't even worth listing them.
Three would be a first "magical" number where Nomura could stop. Either because it's a "trio" and that would go with the theme-numbering of KH or because of the narrative of Prologue-Main part-Finale/Epilogue. In the latter case, the Xehanort saga would be just the "Prologue"-saga which introduces all the most important recurring major characters (the three trios, Naminé, Mickey etc.) and show them coming together through the first major foe (Xehanort), the second saga would be the main part where these characters get all fleshed out to the max with more new semi-major characters introduced white the third saga introduces the last and most powerful enemy whose defeat will draw the story to a close for all of the characters with eventual further adventures left to the imagination of the fans.
Vanitas is a tricky case since he, according to Nomura, has not a physical form right now, although it is strongly hinted that despite Ven trashing him in their final fight his consciousness still exists somewhere. His golden eyes do indicate severe Xehanort-influence though.
I guess for Isa it's many people looking too strongly on his old self from BBS and his former friendship with Lea. In Days he had golden eyes however right from the beginning, Axel noted that there was something pretty awry about him and Nomura hinting that Braig's and Isa's situation being the same leads me to believe more that he's in it willingly just like Braig.
True, and fans cry about Deus Ex Machina about nearly every plot twist anyways, so...

I guess that's another disadvantage of the medium video game, I remember critics already complaining about the high amounts of cutscenes KH 2 had, despite the story of KH 2 still not being presented in a wellrounded manner overall. You need some nifty and elaborate gameplay quirks and gimmicks so players won't get bored. There would be the danger that the game becomes more of a visual novel than a RPG.
It's definitely a possibility, although they could of course also just use Lea for that or make the tutorial directly with Riku or Mickey who are already looking for Sora.

Would be greatly appreciated if Nomura goes a bit further in that department.
Yeah, that's why they made KH2 Final Mix, which has vast improvements over the original KH 2 unlike the first Final Mix which only added several smaller things.
That would depend on how many people they would detach for the second collection, although I would be already satisfied with just getting the FM content around here.

Yeah, that's probably because with characters such as Xion there are more "scapegoats" to rant at. It is funny though as I heard several times that only the western fandom (US, EU, AUS) is so outright hateful towards several characters while the Japanese fandom has this way more rarely.
That's what I meant regarding Kairi's PoH status. Ventus may have a heart of the same type in terms of element, but the "Prince of Heart" he's inofficially called sometimes is completely fabricated, so while I would assume that he may be able to do some things the Princesses can do as well, I suspect it would be only on a smaller scale and less effective than the Princesses can do.
For that Xehanort would still have to scrutinize Kairi, which he so far didn't manage to do.



Speaking of the research and the replica project just shows just how much stuff there still is that would be worth to be explored, lol.

As it's the finale and so many opens plots still (not even counting the new mysteries DDD made up) I would expect him to cover as much as he can. I would find it pretty lame if we would need three our four Ultimania interviews from Nomura to fill in 50% of the plot.

True, them all being set up to be rescued just for the final battle with Xehanort alone would come over a bit cheap.
Oh, I doubt they'll fade into the background completely in any case, but them being degraded from major main characters to major support characters is certainly a possibility depending on how many new characters are introduced in the new saga, although I certainly wouldn't like that.



With all the time travel shenanigans it is certainly possible, but wouldn't that be a little redundant? Unlike Roxas and Sora or Naminé and Kairi, there isn't really much of a difference between Xigbar and Braig.



Didn't Nomura explicitly point out that some of the shown members of the new Org weren't from the past?
As far as I am informed, only Young Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Xemnas are from the past.


Nomura never stated anything about completely new characters, he only spoke about people who were not seen in DDD in person.

If thats the case, then im kind of disappointed. i had assumned that along with past versions of himself, xehanort was gathering people who had a strong affinity for darkness. It would be nice if we had some new characters for the organization.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Having an emotional connection is one thing, but that doesn't mean it has to be a positive one. Also since Xehanort infers in the reports that bringing Ven's failing body there was the first time he set foot on that world again after he left as a youth, which was decades ago.
Exactly, that's why I won't accept that as an excuse or a reasonable attempt to show Xehanort in a more positive light. He caused that whole misery out of his own will and calculation, it wasn't even an accident. So feeling "pity" is highly hypocritical.

Lol, with the games we also hadn't that advantage, KH 2 was out way before with finished story than Days ever saw the light of the day.
I know quite a few light novels from the manga shops I frequent, although one does have to admit that none of them is from the publisher who does the KH Mangas.

Yep, that's why I often like books better than games (or films, for that matter), as you can do so much more with the characters and setting in written form. Even the Lord of the Rings with three infamously long films (and I do think Peter Jackson did a good job) have still vast amount of stuff omitted that can be found in the books, despite the films already being that long.
I had a small dream for a longer time that it would be neat if Nomura would release an actual "Jiminy's Journal" at the end of the Xehanort Saga with plenty of his artwork and detailed character bios for most of the central characters, lol.
True dat, all we know is that despite the ceremony a Keyblade itself still needs to choose you or you won't be able to summon one.

That's also possible, but shorten it or make it mostly unseen would again take part of the impact away. Models being the proper age would help immensely for placing it in the timeline though, yep.
From how he looks I would place Lea in his early twenties, probably just one or two years older than Terra was in BBS. After all, it looked like Lea and Isa were about Ven's age in BBS, so ten years later Lea would be around 24/25. The age difference between Xion, Naminé and Roxas becomes something iffy anyways depending on which age you look. In terms of physical age they're 14/15, but chronologically they're only one year old.

Yup.

One derpy surprise I could imagine though is when Sora and Aqua meet is that Ven's heart will react inside Sora, causing some discomfort on both sides.

Yeah, though his intentions were for Ven to pass in a peaceful place. His pity is definitely hypocritical, but a lot of things about him are hypocritical.

I think it would have actually been pretty cool had we gotten Days before KH2, I think it would have really helped the story a little.
Well it wouldn’t need to be by the same publisher, though that would probably be a little odd, I don’t see why another publisher couldn’t get the rights to publish the light novels.

Well a book has the advantage of having a more open pacing and no real limit to how many pages it can devote to developing its characters and settings.
Okay, that would be great, I’d definitely want it. His artwork alone would be reason enough to get it for me, but just considering all the extra information he could include in this “Jiminy’s Journal” makes me want it even more. Though if he did release something like that, we’d probably never get a localization....
Yeah, and that’s not really a lot to go on. I think it’s funny that even this information we only got through an interview with Namura.

Partly, though just knowing what he’s doing to that poor 10 year old boy already carries a lot of weight. HAving models of the appropriate age would also help make the scenes also really feel like they’re in the past.
Well there’s also the tibbit of Nobodies supposedly not aging, to consider while guessing his physical age. Well I guess Xion, Namine and Roxas would only be 1 year chronologically, but both physically and mentally they are 14/15 year old. I think Axel would probably be somewhere between 18-25 in physical and mental age, this is considering the fact that he might not have aged for a while, when his new heart hadn’t really developed yet.

I could see that happen.

As always in the KH fandom. This series has probably so many base breakers already it isn't even worth listing them.
Three would be a first "magical" number where Nomura could stop. Either because it's a "trio" and that would go with the theme-numbering of KH or because of the narrative of Prologue-Main part-Finale/Epilogue. In the latter case, the Xehanort saga would be just the "Prologue"-saga which introduces all the most important recurring major characters (the three trios, Naminé, Mickey etc.) and show them coming together through the first major foe (Xehanort), the second saga would be the main part where these characters get all fleshed out to the max with more new semi-major characters introduced white the third saga introduces the last and most powerful enemy whose defeat will draw the story to a close for all of the characters with eventual further adventures left to the imagination of the fans.
Vanitas is a tricky case since he, according to Nomura, has not a physical form right now, although it is strongly hinted that despite Ven trashing him in their final fight his consciousness still exists somewhere. His golden eyes do indicate severe Xehanort-influence though.
I guess for Isa it's many people looking too strongly on his old self from BBS and his former friendship with Lea. In Days he had golden eyes however right from the beginning, Axel noted that there was something pretty awry about him and Nomura hinting that Braig's and Isa's situation being the same leads me to believe more that he's in it willingly just like Braig.
True, and fans cry about Deus Ex Machina about nearly every plot twist anyways, so...

I guess that's another disadvantage of the medium video game, I remember critics already complaining about the high amounts of cutscenes KH 2 had, despite the story of KH 2 still not being presented in a wellrounded manner overall. You need some nifty and elaborate gameplay quirks and gimmicks so players won't get bored. There would be the danger that the game becomes more of a visual novel than a RPG.
It's definitely a possibility, although they could of course also just use Lea for that or make the tutorial directly with Riku or Mickey who are already looking for Sora.

Would be greatly appreciated if Nomura goes a bit further in that department.
Yeah, that's why they made KH2 Final Mix, which has vast improvements over the original KH 2 unlike the first Final Mix which only added several smaller things.
That would depend on how many people they would detach for the second collection, although I would be already satisfied with just getting the FM content around here.

Yeah, that's probably because with characters such as Xion there are more "scapegoats" to rant at. It is funny though as I heard several times that only the western fandom (US, EU, AUS) is so outright hateful towards several characters while the Japanese fandom has this way more rarely.
That's what I meant regarding Kairi's PoH status. Ventus may have a heart of the same type in terms of element, but the "Prince of Heart" he's inofficially called sometimes is completely fabricated, so while I would assume that he may be able to do some things the Princesses can do as well, I suspect it would be only on a smaller scale and less effective than the Princesses can do.
For that Xehanort would still have to scrutinize Kairi, which he so far didn't manage to do.

This is true.
Yeah, the third entry is also where most series end, so it wouldn’t be surprising. Also as you pointed out it, fits into many known storytelling formats, such as a trilogy and so on. The way you described the built up of the saga, would make sense and would actually be a good way to tell the KH Story. Though I could imagine they’d would probably like to continue this series as long as possible, so who knows.
Vanitas is definitely a tricky case, though I do think there are already multiple ways they could give him a physical form, if he even need one.
Yes, we never saw Saïx without yellow eyes, so it’s safe to assume he probably has had them for a while. Also I kind of got the impression in Days, that Saïx was only playing the role as Axel’s friends to get Axel to do things for him and stay loyal.
I really don’t get why people feel the need to cry Deus Ex Machina for anything, even things that were kind of hinted at or would be a logical extension of what we already know.

It’s a complaint I think most people have with Square Enix games, personally I don’t mind. I really enjoy it when I get more of the story though the cutscenes. I guess you need nifty and elaborate gameplay quirks and gimmicks to prevent some players from getting bored, but honestly I prefer a well told enjoyable story to drive me to continue. Well as long as we don’t get quicktime event cutscene battles like in FF13-2, I’ll be happy.
Those are good possible ways to start the game, either way I think the prologue should be quite fun and interesting.

Well yes just getting KH2FM would be a great improvement over what we have so far. Well now that I thought about it a little more, considering this time around they’ll probably have a whole game to port, I guess they wouldn’t really have the time or the manpower to really do any fancy additions to KH2FM, though they might surprise me there.

I think western fandoms in general are way faster to hate on something or cry out about things. I can easily imagine the japanese fans being a little more accepting when it comes to these kind of things.
Well Ven’s case is a little special, seeing we don’t know of anyone else whose heart had been separated from it’s darkness. So it’s possible that his only perk t is that he can use light a lot easier than most others.
Well, we’ll see how much see just how much Xehanort knows. I’m guessing, him saying the GoL would be missing three people without Sora and Terra could be an indication that he didn’t know of Kairi, though it could also be he didn’t want to let on that he knew.

Speaking of the research and the replica project just shows just how much stuff there still is that would be worth to be explored, lol.

As it's the finale and so many opens plots still (not even counting the new mysteries DDD made up) I would expect him to cover as much as he can. I would find it pretty lame if we would need three our four Ultimania interviews from Nomura to fill in 50% of the plot.

True, them all being set up to be rescued just for the final battle with Xehanort alone would come over a bit cheap.
Oh, I doubt they'll fade into the background completely in any case, but them being degraded from major main characters to major support characters is certainly a possibility depending on how many new characters are introduced in the new saga, although I certainly wouldn't like that.

There is definitely a lot that could be or should be explored, let’s just hope they don’t just ignore these story elements.

Yes, the finale definitely has a lot of plot points to tie up and I do think Nomura will try to address most, but I’m guessing some of it will require an Ultimtima Interview to explain it.

That would definitely come over as kind of cheap, so I really hope this won’t be the case.
Even them going from major main characters to major supporting characters would be kind of disappointing, seeing we spent games getting to know and getting attached to them.There is definitely a lot that could be or should be explored, let’s just hope they don’t just ignore these story elements.

Yes, the finale definitely has a lot of plot points to tie up and I do think Nomura will try to address most, but I’m guessing some of it will require an Ultimania Interview to explain it.

That would definitely come over as kind of cheap, so I really hope this won’t be the case.
Even them going from major main characters to major supporting characters would be kind of disappointing, seeing we spent games getting to know and getting attached to them.

With all the time travel shenanigans it is certainly possible, but wouldn't that be a little redundant? Unlike Roxas and Sora or Naminé and Kairi, there isn't really much of a difference between Xigbar and Braig.


Didn't Nomura explicitly point out that some of the shown members of the new Org weren't from the past?
As far as I am informed, only Young Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Xemnas are from the past.


Nomura never stated anything about completely new characters, he only spoke about people who were not seen in DDD in person.

I think it’s pretty safe to assume they won’t have both Braig and “Xigbar” in the new Org seeing that they are basicly the same version of Xehanort.

I’m guessing there’s also a good chance that some of the unknow new Org. members are from the past, but I agree I’m pretty sure “Xigbar” and “Saïx” are the recompleted Braig and Isa.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

If thats the case, then im kind of disappointed. i had assumned that along with past versions of himself, xehanort was gathering people who had a strong affinity for darkness. It would be nice if we had some new characters for the organization.

Do you have any sense of scale?
Kingdom Hearts III has not only to tackle a vast amount of still open mysteries and plot points/plot lines that need attention and exploration, it has also to juggle a reasonably big amount of central characters (three main trios, Naminé, Ansem the Wise, Mickey, Donald and Goofy) who all need to be incorporated into the story in a meaningful way, meaning more than just cameos as they had in Dream Drop Distance.
Then there needs to be some attention to the stories of the individual Disney worlds so that they aren't total filler again like in KH 2, many people would also wish for a return of the Final Fantasy cameo characters whose also should have some merit to the story in the ideal case, not to mention possible new Final Fantasy characters and/or the return of the TWEWY characters.
Furthermore there are also the factions who want to see more of Ansem's apprentices and how they play into the plot since they're now humans again or those eager for some focus on the "lesser" EX-Organisation members like Luxord or Marluxia.

Introducing on top of all these points which are already huge (and I bet I still forgot to mention something) even more completely new characters which would also need attention if they should not be just total filler would certainly go beyond the scope of was KH III is capable of.
Even if KH III will be overall longer than both KH I and KH II (which I suspect), the space for including things is not endless and most fans would surely prefer having finally most things cleared up instead of having to try and incorporate even more new stuff.

Yeah, though his intentions were for Ven to pass in a peaceful place. His pity is definitely hypocritical, but a lot of things about him are hypocritical.

I think it would have actually been pretty cool had we gotten Days before KH2, I think it would have really helped the story a little.
Well it wouldn’t need to be by the same publisher, though that would probably be a little odd, I don’t see why another publisher couldn’t get the rights to publish the light novels.

Oh great, I propose you for the nicest-guy-of-the-year award, Xehanort. *sarcasm*
Yep, that's also why I don't understand why some people think that Sora (and possibly the other Keybladers) will forgive Xehanort in the end.
It has been shown that Sora is very forgiving, yes, but it has also been shown that Sora is not all-forgiving. There are plenty of villains which Sora destroyed instead of forgiving them, and most he did try to forgive where either remorseful and wanted to atone or already had performed repentance for their crimes.
Master Xehanort though tops everything we've seen so far in the series and from Sora's reaction towards Xemnas' and Xigbar's revelations in DDD he was certainly not in a forgiving mood.

If we had gotten Days before KH 2 though I would also assume that the story of Days would have had some differences. For example, if Days was first there would have been no reason to make everyone forget Xion, as then some hints and flashbacks towards her could have been easily included in KH 2.
Not to mention much of the dislike and scorn towards Xion would probably never have manifested due to her being established from the beginning.
I doubt it has much to do with rights but rather with the will to take the risk and costs of publishing Japanese light novels. Most light novels I know around here are released by Carlsen, while the KH mangas are all published by EMA, and EMA doesn't do light novels at all I think.

Well a book has the advantage of having a more open pacing and no real limit to how many pages it can devote to developing its characters and settings.
Okay, that would be great, I’d definitely want it. His artwork alone would be reason enough to get it for me, but just considering all the extra information he could include in this “Jiminy’s Journal” makes me want it even more. Though if he did release something like that, we’d probably never get a localization....
Yeah, and that’s not really a lot to go on. I think it’s funny that even this information we only got through an interview with Namura.

Partly, though just knowing what he’s doing to that poor 10 year old boy already carries a lot of weight. HAving models of the appropriate age would also help make the scenes also really feel like they’re in the past.
Well there’s also the tibbit of Nobodies supposedly not aging, to consider while guessing his physical age. Well I guess Xion, Namine and Roxas would only be 1 year chronologically, but both physically and mentally they are 14/15 year old. I think Axel would probably be somewhere between 18-25 in physical and mental age, this is considering the fact that he might not have aged for a while, when his new heart hadn’t really developed yet.

I could see that happen.

Yep, both movies and video games are often severely limited in that regard.
I remember the first movie of the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon) left out so many crucial things (like the entire race of the dwarves) that making a second film would be impossible because they totally screwed up the continuity.

It's really just a small pet dream I have and since the chance of that happening and as you say it coming over here is reasonably small on both counts I tend to not voice it so openly most times.
Nomura likes to keep things vague and mysterious in all areas, lol, that's just how he is.

True, and there's also not to forget that even in the current model (and by taking away the shoulder armor pad and the straps from the model they already made Ven look a little smaller and even more skinny) Ventus has certainly more delicate, "boyish" looks which makes him appear younger.
That said, they also have no problems showing Ienzo fading away so I guess they won't need to change much.
It's not only Nobodies, as Ven also does not age. Aqua is excused due to the other flow of time in the RoD, but otherwise it depends on if a heart is in the body or not. No heart=no aging.
I also don't know if we can describe their mental age as 14/15, maybe Naminé, but Xion and Roxas act and behave often certainly younger and with a more limited mindset. Best example is still Roxas' infamous "ice-cream"-line when Xion dies because he's mentally unable to express his pain and sorrow in a more refined manner. For him, eating ice-cream together is the definition of what friendship is primarily made of because Axel once gave him that simplified explanation and he never got to learn about the concept in more detail.
Oh yeah, in that age-range you cannot easily differentiate anymore. It's (often) easy to distinguish a 10year-old from a 14/15year-old or the latter from a 18/19year-old, but between 18 and 25/26 it isn't so easy anymore. I would place Axel/Lea to be around Terra's age in BBS, two years more or less maybe.

^__^

This is true.
Yeah, the third entry is also where most series end, so it wouldn’t be surprising. Also as you pointed out it, fits into many known storytelling formats, such as a trilogy and so on. The way you described the built up of the saga, would make sense and would actually be a good way to tell the KH Story. Though I could imagine they’d would probably like to continue this series as long as possible, so who knows.
Vanitas is definitely a tricky case, though I do think there are already multiple ways they could give him a physical form, if he even need one.
Yes, we never saw Saïx without yellow eyes, so it’s safe to assume he probably has had them for a while. Also I kind of got the impression in Days, that Saïx was only playing the role as Axel’s friends to get Axel to do things for him and stay loyal.
I really don’t get why people feel the need to cry Deus Ex Machina for anything, even things that were kind of hinted at or would be a logical extension of what we already know.

It’s a complaint I think most people have with Square Enix games, personally I don’t mind. I really enjoy it when I get more of the story though the cutscenes. I guess you need nifty and elaborate gameplay quirks and gimmicks to prevent some players from getting bored, but honestly I prefer a well told enjoyable story to drive me to continue. Well as long as we don’t get quicktime event cutscene battles like in FF13-2, I’ll be happy.
Those are good possible ways to start the game, either way I think the prologue should be quite fun and interesting.

Well yes just getting KH2FM would be a great improvement over what we have so far. Well now that I thought about it a little more, considering this time around they’ll probably have a whole game to port, I guess they wouldn’t really have the time or the manpower to really do any fancy additions to KH2FM, though they might surprise me there.

I think western fandoms in general are way faster to hate on something or cry out about things. I can easily imagine the japanese fans being a little more accepting when it comes to these kind of things.
Well Ven’s case is a little special, seeing we don’t know of anyone else whose heart had been separated from it’s darkness. So it’s possible that his only perk t is that he can use light a lot easier than most others.
Well, we’ll see how much see just how much Xehanort knows. I’m guessing, him saying the GoL would be missing three people without Sora and Terra could be an indication that he didn’t know of Kairi, though it could also be he didn’t want to let on that he knew.

It would also help with not overdoing it, as there are limits of what you can incorporate in terms of worlds and stories.
Continuing this series as long as possible is one thing, but unlike FF KH has a continuous story, so if they would really want to go as long as possible (and keep much of the cast of characters) they would probably need to adopt an episodic format like Star Wars: The Clone Wars.
Well, to be able to truly influence things in the physical world or fight you'll probably need a physical form, lol, but for Nomura there was never be a problem to include a character if he wanted to.
It can go either way with Saix, although Nomura implying that Saix is "similar to Xigbar" in circumstances makes me lean right now more on the "he's in it by choice"-explanation.
It's probably because many people are either a) too lazy, b) too stupid or c) just unable to make the mental connection between the logical extension of issues we already know and other hints throughout the series.

I think it's not only Square Enix but Eastern/Japanese RPGs in general which get those complaints. Eastern RPGs in general put more emphasis on the storyline and presentation, while Western RPGs concentrate more on gameplay and customization for the player characters.
I admit I am not particularily a fan of Western RPGs because in most of them you don't really get deep enough into the characters (or they adhere too much towards western stereotypes like "guys have always to be tough and unemotional" and "girls need to rely on the male characters") and despite superior gameplay the presentation of the story lacks.
The last Western RPGs I played where Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, which surprisingly had very good story presentation and Diablo II: Lord of Destruction. I admit that Diablo has a very interesting and fun gameplay system, but your player characters stay really pale and are in essence only your own avatar in the game world instead of a real character.

Exavtly, KH 1 FM and Re: CoM both needed only to be ported from PS2 to PS3, in the second collection assuming the playable titles will be KH 2 FM and BBS FM, they need to port one title from the PSP, not to mention that KH 2 FM has vastly more content compared to the original KH 2. The differences between KH 1 FM and KH 1 are minor in this area.

Must be a thing of mentality and/or culture I guess, lol.
Also possible, but the main problem here is that, regardless if natural or fabricated, they really haven't yet truly elaborated upon what having a heart of pure light actually means for the person itself. The only thing we know is that these people cannot be turned into Heartless.
We know something about what these hearts mean for the universe, yep, but for the persons themselves? Nope.
That reminds me of Yen Sid's statement that if all seven hearts of pure light are lost, darkness would swallow the worlds again. So what about Ven's heart then? Despite being fabricated, it is pure light, so could it be an unaccounted "eighth" anchor for the worlds?
With Xehanort you never know, but he is certainly not omniscent so he cannot predict or know everything. Yen Sid and Mickey are also deliberately searching for tactics and unconventional ideas which he wouldn't be able to anticipate.

There is definitely a lot that could be or should be explored, let’s just hope they don’t just ignore these story elements.

Yes, the finale definitely has a lot of plot points to tie up and I do think Nomura will try to address most, but I’m guessing some of it will require an Ultimtima Interview to explain it.

That would definitely come over as kind of cheap, so I really hope this won’t be the case.
Even them going from major main characters to major supporting characters would be kind of disappointing, seeing we spent games getting to know and getting attached to them.There is definitely a lot that could be or should be explored, let’s just hope they don’t just ignore these story elements.

Yes, the finale definitely has a lot of plot points to tie up and I do think Nomura will try to address most, but I’m guessing some of it will require an Ultimania Interview to explain it.

That would definitely come over as kind of cheap, so I really hope this won’t be the case.
Even them going from major main characters to major supporting characters would be kind of disappointing, seeing we spent games getting to know and getting attached to them.



I think it’s pretty safe to assume they won’t have both Braig and “Xigbar” in the new Org seeing that they are basicly the same version of Xehanort.

I’m guessing there’s also a good chance that some of the unknow new Org. members are from the past, but I agree I’m pretty sure “Xigbar” and “Saïx” are the recompleted Braig and Isa.

Considering the sheer amount of stuff the chance that something gets overlooked is sadly pretty high, also considering the quality of the writing so far.

Oh, I won't deny that something will be left to the Ultimania again (they always do), but if the Ultimania clears up more stuff than the game itself does with actual storylines AND the journals/reports together something isn't right, and that's what I fear might happen with KH 3 due to the masses of points to address.

Me too, me too. <__<
Yep, but as so often even in this area the fanbase is split. Many people (me included) would like if we see more of and get more development for already existing characters (Kairi badly needs it, but the other two trios also have big potential, especially since each got only one game dedicated to them) but there are also those who would prefer seeing new characters introduced.

Indeed, as unlike Kairi/Naminé or Sora/Roxas Braig and Xigbar aren't really that different, they even act mostly the same.

Agreement.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Who says they even have to bring back numbers 9 through 12. There werent really that important overall to the story. If the six hooded figures were either new characters or only half of them were new characters, then it would really feel like a whole new organization. They didnt have to give the new members depth or go into detail about their past, just the fact that there were new members instead of recycled villains would have satisffied me. Im not going to get that hung up about it, although i can honestly say that its a missed opportunity in my opinion, and a big disappointment

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Do you have any sense of scale?
Kingdom Hearts III has not only to tackle a vast amount of still open mysteries and plot points/plot lines that need attention and exploration, it has also to juggle a reasonably big amount of central characters (three main trios, Naminé, Ansem the Wise, Mickey, Donald and Goofy) who all need to be incorporated into the story in a meaningful way, meaning more than just cameos as they had in Dream Drop Distance.
Then there needs to be some attention to the stories of the individual Disney worlds so that they aren't total filler again like in KH 2, many people would also wish for a return of the Final Fantasy cameo characters whose also should have some merit to the story in the ideal case, not to mention possible new Final Fantasy characters and/or the return of the TWEWY characters.
Furthermore there are also the factions who want to see more of Ansem's apprentices and how they play into the plot since they're now humans again or those eager for some focus on the "lesser" EX-Organisation members like Luxord or Marluxia.

Introducing on top of all these points which are already huge (and I bet I still forgot to mention something) even more completely new characters which would also need attention if they should not be just total filler would certainly go beyond the scope of was KH III is capable of.
Even if KH III will be overall longer than both KH I and KH II (which I suspect), the space for including things is not endless and most fans would surely prefer having finally most things cleared up instead of having to try and incorporate even more new stuff.

Well even though there are so many thing to address it’s not completely out of the question that some Org. members of the new Org. 13 are new, they will just not be well fleshed out in a similar way to Luxord in KH2, who really barely had any screen time. Sure this would be less ideal and less interesting, but it’s still a valid possibility.

Oh great, I propose you for the nicest-guy-of-the-year award, Xehanort. *sarcasm*
Yep, that's also why I don't understand why some people think that Sora (and possibly the other Keybladers) will forgive Xehanort in the end.
It has been shown that Sora is very forgiving, yes, but it has also been shown that Sora is not all-forgiving. There are plenty of villains which Sora destroyed instead of forgiving them, and most he did try to forgive where either remorseful and wanted to atone or already had performed repentance for their crimes.
Master Xehanort though tops everything we've seen so far in the series and from Sora's reaction towards Xemnas' and Xigbar's revelations in DDD he was certainly not in a forgiving mood.

If we had gotten Days before KH 2 though I would also assume that the story of Days would have had some differences. For example, if Days was first there would have been no reason to make everyone forget Xion, as then some hints and flashbacks towards her could have been easily included in KH 2.
Not to mention much of the dislike and scorn towards Xion would probably never have manifested due to her being established from the beginning.
I doubt it has much to do with rights but rather with the will to take the risk and costs of publishing Japanese light novels. Most light novels I know around here are released by Carlsen, while the KH mangas are all published by EMA, and EMA doesn't do light novels at all I think.

Yeah, there are certainly times where Sora isn’t really all that forgiving. It usually depends on the circumstances and whether Sora feels sorry for them or not. Also in Xehanorts case it has somewhat become personal and they’ve already fought so many times now, that it just wouldn’t quite seem right for Sora to just forgive him.

Well that’s possible, but I think the "forgetting her" part is crucial to her story, so they might have kept that in, but had her referred to in some other way, such as the scene at the clock tower including a transparent version of her.
She would have definitely been better received had she appeared before KH2 or been referred to in it.
I thought the publisher was Egmont or at least that’s what’s written on my Days mangas. But if licensing isn’t the problem then why could Carlsen just publish the Kingdom Hearts light novel?

Yep, both movies and video games are often severely limited in that regard.
I remember the first movie of the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon) left out so many crucial things (like the entire race of the dwarves) that making a second film would be impossible because they totally screwed up the continuity.

It's really just a small pet dream I have and since the chance of that happening and as you say it coming over here is reasonably small on both counts I tend to not voice it so openly most times.
Nomura likes to keep things vague and mysterious in all areas, lol, that's just how he is.

True, and there's also not to forget that even in the current model (and by taking away the shoulder armor pad and the straps from the model they already made Ven look a little smaller and even more skinny) Ventus has certainly more delicate, "boyish" looks which makes him appear younger.
That said, they also have no problems showing Ienzo fading away so I guess they won't need to change much.
It's not only Nobodies, as Ven also does not age. Aqua is excused due to the other flow of time in the RoD, but otherwise it depends on if a heart is in the body or not. No heart=no aging.
I also don't know if we can describe their mental age as 14/15, maybe Naminé, but Xion and Roxas act and behave often certainly younger and with a more limited mindset. Best example is still Roxas' infamous "ice-cream"-line when Xion dies because he's mentally unable to express his pain and sorrow in a more refined manner. For him, eating ice-cream together is the definition of what friendship is primarily made of because Axel once gave him that simplified explanation and he never got to learn about the concept in more detail.
Oh yeah, in that age-range you cannot easily differentiate anymore. It's (often) easy to distinguish a 10year-old from a 14/15year-old or the latter from a 18/19year-old, but between 18 and 25/26 it isn't so easy anymore. I would place Axel/Lea to be around Terra's age in BBS, two years more or less maybe.

^__^

Yes most forms of storytelling do seem to have a form of handicap. Though sometimes it’s more because of the publisher than the format itself.
Yeah I heard the Eragon movie was a terrible adaptation. I’m surprised they didn’t just try to reboot it and try again.

Well it wouldn’t be that impossible to happen after all, they would only have to throw together some bio’s for the character, flesh out certain descriptions of the events in the series and add some incredible art.
What I also would like, is if they’d make an “Art of Making Kingdom Hearts” type book, similar to the one for Avatar the Last Airbender, with all kind of unused art and behind the scenes information. I guess the Ultimania’s are already somewhat this kind of book, but I really would like them to publish this kind of thing worldwide and include the material of all games so far.
Yeah that is definitely how he is. I think he gets quite a joy out of the thought that fans are speculating about these things. Also him acting like he does kind of helps keep the series alive between games.

Yeah, I think if they can show Ienzo fading they should be able to show the 10 year old Ven’s ordeal.
Yes, this does seem to be the case. Which also means that each nobody at one point didn’t age. I guess that also is a good indication that Zexion grew a heart seeing he did age into his late teens.
Well considering all that they learned in their year in the Org. they actually matured quite a bit, also it’s not really their fault that they had simple views on things seeing they couldn’t really experience most of it themselves and no one really explained anything to them.
Yeah it seems that age range is one in which one doesn’t age visually much, also it’s always hard to guess the age of a character based on their age, seeing it depends on the style used in creating the design.
That would seem like the most likely age for Axel to be.

It would also help with not overdoing it, as there are limits of what you can incorporate in terms of worlds and stories.
Continuing this series as long as possible is one thing, but unlike FF KH has a continuous story, so if they would really want to go as long as possible (and keep much of the cast of characters) they would probably need to adopt an episodic format like Star Wars: The Clone Wars.
Well, to be able to truly influence things in the physical world or fight you'll probably need a physical form, lol, but for Nomura there was never be a problem to include a character if he wanted to.
It can go either way with Saix, although Nomura implying that Saix is "similar to Xigbar" in circumstances makes me lean right now more on the "he's in it by choice"-explanation.
It's probably because many people are either a) too lazy, b) too stupid or c) just unable to make the mental connection between the logical extension of issues we already know and other hints throughout the series.

I think it's not only Square Enix but Eastern/Japanese RPGs in general which get those complaints. Eastern RPGs in general put more emphasis on the storyline and presentation, while Western RPGs concentrate more on gameplay and customization for the player characters.
I admit I am not particularily a fan of Western RPGs because in most of them you don't really get deep enough into the characters (or they adhere too much towards western stereotypes like "guys have always to be tough and unemotional" and "girls need to rely on the male characters") and despite superior gameplay the presentation of the story lacks.
The last Western RPGs I played where Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, which surprisingly had very good story presentation and Diablo II: Lord of Destruction. I admit that Diablo has a very interesting and fun gameplay system, but your player characters stay really pale and are in essence only your own avatar in the game world instead of a real character.

Exavtly, KH 1 FM and Re: CoM both needed only to be ported from PS2 to PS3, in the second collection assuming the playable titles will be KH 2 FM and BBS FM, they need to port one title from the PSP, not to mention that KH 2 FM has vastly more content compared to the original KH 2. The differences between KH 1 FM and KH 1 are minor in this area.

Must be a thing of mentality and/or culture I guess, lol.
Also possible, but the main problem here is that, regardless if natural or fabricated, they really haven't yet truly elaborated upon what having a heart of pure light actually means for the person itself. The only thing we know is that these people cannot be turned into Heartless.
We know something about what these hearts mean for the universe, yep, but for the persons themselves? Nope.
That reminds me of Yen Sid's statement that if all seven hearts of pure light are lost, darkness would swallow the worlds again. So what about Ven's heart then? Despite being fabricated, it is pure light, so could it be an unaccounted "eighth" anchor for the worlds?
With Xehanort you never know, but he is certainly not omniscent so he cannot predict or know everything. Yen Sid and Mickey are also deliberately searching for tactics and unconventional ideas which he wouldn't be able to anticipate.

Going over three can definitely be tricky for a series as a lot of them don’t seem to manage it to well.
Final Fantasy definitely has an advantage in going on as long as possible, seeing they don't have a ongoing narrative and are only connected by themes, but it’s still possible for sereis with an ongoing story it’s just harder to do. Sadly I haven’t gotten around to watching that show yet, so I don’t quite know what it’s episodic format is like.
It would be more practical to have a physical form, but I think they could make him interact with his surroundings in a different way.
For now at least I’m pretty sure Saïx’s in it by choice.
Probably, I also think some people just enjoy crying out.

I guess so, I personally quite like the stronger story driven RPGs, it gives me more incentive to carry on until the end, to find out what happens next.
Yeah western games do tend to rely on those kind of troppes though there are some exceptions, they usually at least do one of those two.

KH2FM does have a lot more new stuff that will need to be localized and porting a game definitely will take more effort. I’m still kind of hoping they’ll add some NPCs to BBS’ port. It would be nice if when you went to RG you could meet Lea and Isa while playing as Ven or Kairi and her Grandmother if you’re playing as Aqua.

It must be.
Yes, this is a problem, seeing we really don’t know what it means for the characters, seeing they obviously do have negative emotions as well, which were hinted as being part of what darkness is. So does it affect them in some other way? We also don’t know how there always can be seven PoH. Also considering that hearts in the KH universe are hinted at as beeing imortal does that mean their are countless hearts of pure light of previous PoH, just sleeping in darkness because the PoH died?
Well I guess he theoretically was, while he wasn’t in Sora, now he’s technically part of a heart that has darkness in it so I don’t know if that still counts. Also his pure heart was fabricated and there was originally darkness in it, so maybe he and vanitas canceled each other out somehow.
With Xehanort you really never know, he seems to know way more than anyone else in the series. Well if he didn’t know I’m sure he never would expect a PoH to fight as a GoL.

Considering the sheer amount of stuff the chance that something gets overlooked is sadly pretty high, also considering the quality of the writing so far.

Oh, I won't deny that something will be left to the Ultimania again (they always do), but if the Ultimania clears up more stuff than the game itself does with actual storylines AND the journals/reports together something isn't right, and that's what I fear might happen with KH 3 due to the masses of points to address.

Me too, me too. <__<
Yep, but as so often even in this area the fanbase is split. Many people (me included) would like if we see more of and get more development for already existing characters (Kairi badly needs it, but the other two trios also have big potential, especially since each got only one game dedicated to them) but there are also those who would prefer seeing new characters introduced.

Indeed, as unlike Kairi/Naminé or Sora/Roxas Braig and Xigbar aren't really that different, they even act mostly the same.

Agreement.

This is sadly true, though I still think that even once this saga is done some of these things still could be explored. Especially if the characters stick around.

Okay if that happens, something went wrong. I’m pretty sure most of the things should be/will be explained in the games, though some of the important stuff might sadly end up in the Ultimania, this seems to happen more often than I’d like.

Why would someone want more new character when we already have a cast of +12 characters, that still can be explored. Especially characters like Kairi could really use more development and screentime. Also as you’ve said a lot of these characters have only gotten the spotlight for one game.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Who says they even have to bring back numbers 9 through 12. There werent really that important overall to the story. If the six hooded figures were either new characters or only half of them were new characters, then it would really feel like a whole new organization. They didnt have to give the new members depth or go into detail about their past, just the fact that there were new members instead of recycled villains would have satisffied me. Im not going to get that hung up about it, although i can honestly say that its a missed opportunity in my opinion, and a big disappointment

While I agree with you that the EX-Organisation members 9 through 12 (especially 9 and 10) do not really need to be included anymore, they are already established characters and having them around would give an opportunity to flesh them out more so they would not be so inconsequential anymore. Unlike new characters, they don't need to be introduced first.
Not giving the new members depth would just create another number 9 to 12 like in the old Organisation though and that would be a waste too, as we would just get more inconsequential characters.
The new Organisation is already "new" in the sense that at least six old members aren't there anymore and we already have three new members who weren't there before: Master Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Young Xehanort are all new members.

Well even though there are so many thing to address it’s not completely out of the question that some Org. members of the new Org. 13 are new, they will just not be well fleshed out in a similar way to Luxord in KH2, who really barely had any screen time. Sure this would be less ideal and less interesting, but it’s still a valid possibility.

And would you really consider that a good way to handle things? Introducing more characters meaningless to the overall situation and who haven't any connection to the protagonists. People were already upset enough that Luxord, Larxene and the others were in the end pretty insignificant.

Yeah, there are certainly times where Sora isn’t really all that forgiving. It usually depends on the circumstances and whether Sora feels sorry for them or not. Also in Xehanorts case it has somewhat become personal and they’ve already fought so many times now, that it just wouldn’t quite seem right for Sora to just forgive him.

Well that’s possible, but I think the "forgetting her" part is crucial to her story, so they might have kept that in, but had her referred to in some other way, such as the scene at the clock tower including a transparent version of her.
She would have definitely been better received had she appeared before KH2 or been referred to in it.
I thought the publisher was Egmont or at least that’s what’s written on my Days mangas. But if licensing isn’t the problem then why could Carlsen just publish the Kingdom Hearts light novel?

As I have observed it's a two-sided issue. One side is Sora's current mood and what the current status of his friends is. If he's not furious and his friends are safe, he's more likely to consider sparing the opponent if, and that's the other side, the opponent is willing to atone and make up for his/her mistakes/misdeeds.
It would probably help to compile a list how often Sora destroyed an opponent and how often he spared someone and then look at the circumstances.

With Xehanort there's also the additional problem with just how many lives he has ruined, so even if Sora (as unlikely as it is) would "forgive" him, I can imagine all three of the BBS-Trio not being so thrilled about that.

That really depends on how you look at it, as most if not all fans agree that the whole "forgetting her" nonsense was added precisely because they had to retcon her out completely due to KH 2 already being out before, which is also why several parts of the fandom see Xion as an "unneccessary" addition.
Having Days before KH2 would render all those points above moot and they would have been free to handle the character of Xion in a possibly totally different way.
Switching those two games around in release dates would make a huge difference.

EMA is Egmont, lol, Egmont Manga. It's a subsidiary company of the general publisher. I'm on the impression that since the novels and the manga are made by different people, the license wouldn't be the same, but the reason why Carlsen doesn't do it may probably because they do not see enough possibly profit if they would do. Carlsen has several novel series though like .hack, Kyou Kara Maou and others.
Or EMA has reserved a priority buy chance (because they already do the manga) on the novels IF they should decide to publish them so Carlsen could not get it even if they wanted to.

Yes most forms of storytelling do seem to have a form of handicap. Though sometimes it’s more because of the publisher than the format itself.
Yeah I heard the Eragon movie was a terrible adaptation. I’m surprised they didn’t just try to reboot it and try again.

Well it wouldn’t be that impossible to happen after all, they would only have to throw together some bio’s for the character, flesh out certain descriptions of the events in the series and add some incredible art.
What I also would like, is if they’d make an “Art of Making Kingdom Hearts” type book, similar to the one for Avatar the Last Airbender, with all kind of unused art and behind the scenes information. I guess the Ultimania’s are already somewhat this kind of book, but I really would like them to publish this kind of thing worldwide and include the material of all games so far.
Yeah that is definitely how he is. I think he gets quite a joy out of the thought that fans are speculating about these things. Also him acting like he does kind of helps keep the series alive between games.

The only handicap I see with books or written works is however the visual component, but that can be easily remedied with enough imagination on the readers part and/or some illustrations which at least show how the characters look like.

I guess after the desaster that was this movie they didn't find someone who was willing to fund the whole issue.
Maybe in a few years they might try again, also since the cycle is now complete with four books.

Yeah, of course, it is not impossible, just like the romance-plots are not completely impossible or that Xehanort really gets forgiven in the end. They're just all extremely unlikely.
If they would really create such a book, I would possibly even import it, but I won't harbor any concrete hopes for such a thing because I know about the unlikeliness.
Yep, the Ultimania's are those kinds of books, they are much more than the piggyback/bradygames guides we get in the west and hold much more information about the series itself. A big book incorporating the whole Xehanort saga though would be of course the culmination of a KH "bible", or a "ultimate" Ultimania so to speak.
Quite a joy and probably also more than one *laughs* out of it. I remember Nomura stating in an interview about the big survey that was made in 2011 (I think) that not even his staff knows the whole extent of the mysteries of the story of KH. He is the only one who knows how everything comes together up to now.

Yeah, I think if they can show Ienzo fading they should be able to show the 10 year old Ven’s ordeal.
Yes, this does seem to be the case. Which also means that each nobody at one point didn’t age. I guess that also is a good indication that Zexion grew a heart seeing he did age into his late teens.
Well considering all that they learned in their year in the Org. they actually matured quite a bit, also it’s not really their fault that they had simple views on things seeing they couldn’t really experience most of it themselves and no one really explained anything to them.
Yeah it seems that age range is one in which one doesn’t age visually much, also it’s always hard to guess the age of a character based on their age, seeing it depends on the style used in creating the design.
That would seem like the most likely age for Axel to be.

Indeed, I forgot the part with Ienzo for a while.
That would be safest to assume, as the fact that Nobodies have no hearts is still not wrong even with the new information we get from DDD. The only thing that DDD changes is that we learn about this status of a Nobody is not permanently set in stone. And the hints about new hearts being born in places where shouldn't be one have been around since Chain of Memories and KH 2.

Sure, for beings who started out with no memories and awareness at all like Zombies (that analogy really fits) they surely came to function pretty well.
I would also say that seldom people would blame Xion or Roxas in that regard on purpose, most people who bitch about i.e. the ice-cream-line don't know what it actually means.
Leaving them on a low level was actually in the Organisation's (or rather, Xemnas' and Xigbar's) interest, as when they develop too much awareness and become too much of an own individual they cannot be really used as a vessel anymore.
Young Xehanort specifically says to Riku in DDD that Roxas originally was an ideal candidate for becoming a Xehanort-vessel, but he developed too much independence to be effectively used and in the end all attempts to use force where rendered impossible because he returned to Sora.

That's true in Real Life too though, most people have an easier time differentiating a 10year-old from a 14year-old than telling the difference between 16/17 and 19/20.

Going over three can definitely be tricky for a series as a lot of them don’t seem to manage it to well.
Final Fantasy definitely has an advantage in going on as long as possible, seeing they don't have a ongoing narrative and are only connected by themes, but it’s still possible for sereis with an ongoing story it’s just harder to do. Sadly I haven’t gotten around to watching that show yet, so I don’t quite know what it’s episodic format is like.
It would be more practical to have a physical form, but I think they could make him interact with his surroundings in a different way.
For now at least I’m pretty sure Saïx’s in it by choice.
Probably, I also think some people just enjoy crying out.

I guess so, I personally quite like the stronger story driven RPGs, it gives me more incentive to carry on until the end, to find out what happens next.
Yeah western games do tend to rely on those kind of troppes though there are some exceptions, they usually at least do one of those two.

Especially when they tell a continuous story with largely the same cast of characters.
Episodic format means that while the character cast is largely the same, the episodes themselves don't always interconnect with each other, there are episodes that are concluded storylines in itself.
Mission: Impossible (the TV Series, not the movies with Scientology-Tom!) works like this as well, as does "The A-Team" or "Power Rangers" (although one has to admit, in PR they did have quite a bunch of Cast changes).
For KH this would for example mean that i.e. KH 4 and 5 might have a storyline that is interconnected, but KH 6 has an own storyline not dependent on 4 and 5 despite maybe having the same cast and maybe even the same villain.

Whatever they do I don't think that this one-scene teaser in DDD was there just for fanservice, Vanitas will be involved in some form or shape again.
Yep, I go by that interpretation right now as well.
Also possible, more so if we consider that most people nowadays don't want to think too much but expect explanations delivered on silver platter.

Yeah, I won't say such games as Diablo II aren't enjoyable, they are, but not on the level I would personally put a Final Fantasy, .hack or Kingdom Hearts title.

KH2FM does have a lot more new stuff that will need to be localized and porting a game definitely will take more effort. I’m still kind of hoping they’ll add some NPCs to BBS’ port. It would be nice if when you went to RG you could meet Lea and Isa while playing as Ven or Kairi and her Grandmother if you’re playing as Aqua.

It must be.
Yes, this is a problem, seeing we really don’t know what it means for the characters, seeing they obviously do have negative emotions as well, which were hinted as being part of what darkness is. So does it affect them in some other way? We also don’t know how there always can be seven PoH. Also considering that hearts in the KH universe are hinted at as beeing imortal does that mean their are countless hearts of pure light of previous PoH, just sleeping in darkness because the PoH died?
Well I guess he theoretically was, while he wasn’t in Sora, now he’s technically part of a heart that has darkness in it so I don’t know if that still counts. Also his pure heart was fabricated and there was originally darkness in it, so maybe he and vanitas canceled each other out somehow.
With Xehanort you really never know, he seems to know way more than anyone else in the series. Well if he didn’t know I’m sure he never would expect a PoH to fight as a GoL.

Yup.
NPCs? Lol, right now it's practically a staple of KH games to not have any insignificant NPCs, although if I recall correctly in BBS you do get to meet Scrooge McDuck, Merlin (in RG), the three fairies (ED), the seven dwarves (DW) and some others outside the story in the worlds.

As said in that other thread, I think designating each emotion to an element is an error in thinking. Anger isn't solely a emotion of darkness, even if it may result in darkness growing if felt. The only difference would then be that a PoH (regardless of natural or fabricated) feeling such a emotion won't result in any darkness growing because there isn't any. The elements do not cause the emotions you have, the mix and intensity of your emotions dictate how the elements inside the heart grow or shrink. If there is only one element, I guess the heart itself grows stronger or weaker depending on the emotions.

Ventus still has an own heart, regardless if it's in Sora right now. When it is placed back where it belongs, this situational question should come up again.
Yeah, although that really begs the question if it would be wise to put a PoH on the frontlines as a GoL, I don't know if Yen Sid and Mickey would put Kairi at an unneccessary risk by doing that.
If the hearts of the other six Princesses are really lost and Kairi stands with at the first battle line, the final clash would literally become an all-nor-nothing skirmish where the GoLs cannot afford to give any mercy due to the direness of the situation.

This is sadly true, though I still think that even once this saga is done some of these things still could be explored. Especially if the characters stick around.

Okay if that happens, something went wrong. I’m pretty sure most of the things should be/will be explained in the games, though some of the important stuff might sadly end up in the Ultimania, this seems to happen more often than I’d like.

Why would someone want more new character when we already have a cast of +12 characters, that still can be explored. Especially characters like Kairi could really use more development and screentime. Also as you’ve said a lot of these characters have only gotten the spotlight for one game.

Yea, IF the characters stay around there would be more than enough opportunities.

That the Ultimania clears up some of the more ambigious stuff is common practice, what I would want to be avoided though is that whole plotlines are left to be explained by the Ultimania.

Ask this to those who want more new characters instead of fleshing out the existing ones. The issue with having the hooded members of the new Organisation new characters is exactly an example of this.
As for the main characters, yep, that's why I mostly want their return to be meaningful and actually used to focus more on them, not just to bring them back for fanservice and as cannon fodder for Xehanort alone.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

We don't even know if numbers 9 through 12 will come back. if they do, I doubt that we are going to have enough time to flesh them out, given everything else that needs to be addressed. If nomura really wants them to comeback and develop them, then I think it would be best to save that for the next saga.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

While I agree with you that the EX-Organisation members 9 through 12 (especially 9 and 10) do not really need to be included anymore, they are already established characters and having them around would give an opportunity to flesh them out more so they would not be so inconsequential anymore. Unlike new characters, they don't need to be introduced first.
Not giving the new members depth would just create another number 9 to 12 like in the old Organisation though and that would be a waste too, as we would just get more inconsequential characters.
The new Organisation is already "new" in the sense that at least six old members aren't there anymore and we already have three new members who weren't there before: Master Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Young Xehanort are all new members.


And would you really consider that a good way to handle things? Introducing more characters meaningless to the overall situation and who haven't any connection to the protagonists. People were already upset enough that Luxord, Larxene and the others were in the end pretty insignificant.

I wouldn't consider it a good way to handle things, but it’s not like we haven’t already seen this happen before. There would definitely be an advantage in using some characters we’re already y familiar with and especially seeing some of them could use some fleshing out. It would really be a waste to include new ones at this point seeing the chances of these new “Xehanorts” getting to play a role in the next saga are slim, just because of how they would be introduced.
I wouldn't say Larxene’s role was insignificant, it was quite important for the plot of CoM. So though it wasn’t that important for the series as a whole, it was still significant for that game. I definitely think she’s a great villain and would love facing her again.

As I have observed it's a two-sided issue. One side is Sora's current mood and what the current status of his friends is. If he's not furious and his friends are safe, he's more likely to consider sparing the opponent if, and that's the other side, the opponent is willing to atone and make up for his/her mistakes/misdeeds.
It would probably help to compile a list how often Sora destroyed an opponent and how often he spared someone and then look at the circumstances.

With Xehanort there's also the additional problem with just how many lives he has ruined, so even if Sora (as unlikely as it is) would "forgive" him, I can imagine all three of the BBS-Trio not being so thrilled about that.

That really depends on how you look at it, as most if not all fans agree that the whole "forgetting her" nonsense was added precisely because they had to retcon her out completely due to KH 2 already being out before, which is also why several parts of the fandom see Xion as an "unneccessary" addition.
Having Days before KH2 would render all those points above moot and they would have been free to handle the character of Xion in a possibly totally different way.
Switching those two games around in release dates would make a huge difference.

EMA is Egmont, lol, Egmont Manga. It's a subsidiary company of the general publisher. I'm on the impression that since the novels and the manga are made by different people, the license wouldn't be the same, but the reason why Carlsen doesn't do it may probably because they do not see enough possibly profit if they would do. Carlsen has several novel series though like .hack, Kyou Kara Maou and others.
Or EMA has reserved a priority buy chance (because they already do the manga) on the novels IF they should decide to publish them so Carlsen could not get it even if they wanted to.

Yeah, I think one also could say it also depends on his relationship to his opponent and whether he can sympathize with them or not. But yes it definitely mainly depends on Sora’s current mood and what state his friends are in.
It would be helpful, but I think the list of him intentionally spearing his opponent would be rather short...

Yes, I could also easily imagine Sora actually stepping aside and letting those that have suffered because of him decide his fate.

Well I guess that could be the case, but it kind of became one of her main source of suffering, I also just think it’s an interesting concept.
I kinda would like to see how KH2 would have changed if Days had been released before it. It would be interesting to see what kind of changes they’d have done.
I just remembered, didn’t Nomura actually kind of hint at at least the idea of Xion existing in an Interview after KH2 was released? So maybe the rough idea of her had already existed at the time of KH2s development, if that were the case it’s really too bad they didn’t add her in a cutscene in KH2FM, even if was just hooded.

Oh, I didn’t know that. The scenarios you mentioned are quite likely. It’s just too bad we probably will never get the chance to buy them.

The only handicap I see with books or written works is however the visual component, but that can be easily remedied with enough imagination on the readers part and/or some illustrations which at least show how the characters look like.

I guess after the desaster that was this movie they didn't find someone who was willing to fund the whole issue.
Maybe in a few years they might try again, also since the cycle is now complete with four books.

Yeah, of course, it is not impossible, just like the romance-plots are not completely impossible or that Xehanort really gets forgiven in the end. They're just all extremely unlikely.
If they would really create such a book, I would possibly even import it, but I won't harbor any concrete hopes for such a thing because I know about the unlikeliness.
Yep, the Ultimania's are those kinds of books, they are much more than the piggyback/bradygames guides we get in the west and hold much more information about the series itself. A big book incorporating the whole Xehanort saga though would be of course the culmination of a KH "bible", or a "ultimate" Ultimania so to speak.
Quite a joy and probably also more than one *laughs* out of it. I remember Nomura stating in an interview about the big survey that was made in 2011 (I think) that not even his staff knows the whole extent of the mysteries of the story of KH. He is the only one who knows how everything comes together up to now.

In my opinion the lack of a visual component can be quite a handicap, depending on the author. Because in order to illustrate how the character or the place look the story is interrupted to describe them and depending on the author it can take up to a whole page, which really detracts from the story itself.

Sadly, that’s true.
Yeah the guids released outside of japan aren’t all that great, from what I’ve heard. Why couldn’t they just translate the Ultimanias and release those instead, then even fans that are not interested in a guid would buy it.

It would definitely be the ultimate Ultimania for this Saga.
Nomura definitely gets more than one *laugh* out of it, by the way he talks about it.
The fact that nobody aside from him knows, kind of scares me. If something were to ever happen to him we’d never learn how it’ll concludes and adds up.

Indeed, I forgot the part with Ienzo for a while.
That would be safest to assume, as the fact that Nobodies have no hearts is still not wrong even with the new information we get from DDD. The only thing that DDD changes is that we learn about this status of a Nobody is not permanently set in stone. And the hints about new hearts being born in places where shouldn't be one have been around since Chain of Memories and KH 2.

Sure, for beings who started out with no memories and awareness at all like Zombies (that analogy really fits) they surely came to function pretty well.
I would also say that seldom people would blame Xion or Roxas in that regard on purpose, most people who bitch about i.e. the ice-cream-line don't know what it actually means.
Leaving them on a low level was actually in the Organisation's (or rather, Xemnas' and Xigbar's) interest, as when they develop too much awareness and become too much of an own individual they cannot be really used as a vessel anymore.
Young Xehanort specifically says to Riku in DDD that Roxas originally was an ideal candidate for becoming a Xehanort-vessel, but he developed too much independence to be effectively used and in the end all attempts to use force where rendered impossible because he returned to Sora.

That's true in Real Life too though, most people have an easier time differentiating a 10year-old from a 14year-old than telling the difference between 16/17 and 19/20.

The hints of them having hearts have been around in the series for quite sometime now,, so DDD didn’t really change anything in this regard, it just confirmed it. I wonder if the Org members ever questioned why certain members seemed to age while others didn’t.

That’s probably true, seeing depending on how loosely you follow the story, it might slip under the radar.
Well from what we saw in Days the Org 13 did seem to run on a need to know bases for most members. Which works well with keeping them from developing too much of sense of self.

Yes it is, but when it comes to art it gets even harder sometimes.There are definitely certain age groups that are easier to differentiate than others.

Especially when they tell a continuous story with largely the same cast of characters.
Episodic format means that while the character cast is largely the same, the episodes themselves don't always interconnect with each other, there are episodes that are concluded storylines in itself.
Mission: Impossible (the TV Series, not the movies with Scientology-Tom!) works like this as well, as does "The A-Team" or "Power Rangers" (although one has to admit, in PR they did have quite a bunch of Cast changes).
For KH this would for example mean that i.e. KH 4 and 5 might have a storyline that is interconnected, but KH 6 has an own storyline not dependent on 4 and 5 despite maybe having the same cast and maybe even the same villain.

Whatever they do I don't think that this one-scene teaser in DDD was there just for fanservice, Vanitas will be involved in some form or shape again.
Yep, I go by that interpretation right now as well.
Also possible, more so if we consider that most people nowadays don't want to think too much but expect explanations delivered on silver platter.

Yeah, I won't say such games as Diablo II aren't enjoyable, they are, but not on the level I would personally put a Final Fantasy, .hack or Kingdom Hearts title.

I could see that format working very well. It would also give us the chance to explore/devote installments to develop characters that don’t really get a chance to shine in the series so far. Though I do see it work I’m not sure if this is an approach Nomura would want to take, seeing right now it seems he wants the series to be in sagas, I’m guessing similar to DBZ where there’s always one main villain per saga, but for the long run the episodic format would work better.

Yeah, it’s really unlikely that they’d do it just for fanservice.
This is true, I guess some people are just too spoiled and expect to be catered to.

Yup.
NPCs? Lol, right now it's practically a staple of KH games to not have any insignificant NPCs, although if I recall correctly in BBS you do get to meet Scrooge McDuck, Merlin (in RG), the three fairies (ED), the seven dwarves (DW) and some others outside the story in the worlds.

As said in that other thread, I think designating each emotion to an element is an error in thinking. Anger isn't solely a emotion of darkness, even if it may result in darkness growing if felt. The only difference would then be that a PoH (regardless of natural or fabricated) feeling such a emotion won't result in any darkness growing because there isn't any. The elements do not cause the emotions you have, the mix and intensity of your emotions dictate how the elements inside the heart grow or shrink. If there is only one element, I guess the heart itself grows stronger or weaker depending on the emotions.

Ventus still has an own heart, regardless if it's in Sora right now. When it is placed back where it belongs, this situational question should come up again.
Yeah, although that really begs the question if it would be wise to put a PoH on the frontlines as a GoL, I don't know if Yen Sid and Mickey would put Kairi at an unneccessary risk by doing that.
If the hearts of the other six Princesses are really lost and Kairi stands with at the first battle line, the final clash would literally become an all-nor-nothing skirmish where the GoLs cannot afford to give any mercy due to the direness of the situation.

I know it’s kind of a staple of the series and we do have some in BBS, but I’d just like to have a little more than we already have. KH’s worlds just seem a little empty and I really think just adding 2 or 3 NPCs in the city areas would help fix that.

Yeah you’re probably right about that. It would make sense judging by what we’ve seen so far in the series. I’m guessing Aqua’s statement at the KG shouldn’t be taken too literally.
I know it’s silly, but the fact that you just called Ven a princess made me chuckle.

Well yes, but I don’t know if it still influences the rest of the universe the same way an active heart does, seeing it kind of is a part of Sora’s right now.

Well I think it’s actually just as safe as splitting up to protect each princess. The Org has almost twice as many members so she’d be in danger one way or another. Also if the others are already captured than it’s already an all-or-nothing situation, this way at least they can be there to actively protect her and she’d have a better chance as well, seeing she’d be in a larger group.
Furthermore the same question could be asked about including Ven, after all he can basically be used as a replacement or a PoH seeing Xehanort is only after them because of their hearts of light.

Yea, IF the characters stay around there would be more than enough opportunities.

That the Ultimania clears up some of the more ambigious stuff is common practice, what I would want to be avoided though is that whole plotlines are left to be explained by the Ultimania.

Ask this to those who want more new characters instead of fleshing out the existing ones. The issue with having the hooded members of the new Organisation new characters is exactly an example of this.
As for the main characters, yep, that's why I mostly want their return to be meaningful and actually used to focus more on them, not just to bring them back for fanservice and as cannon fodder for Xehanort alone.

I think it’s quite likely that they will stick around, at least as side characters.

Yeah, that should be avoided and I think it’ll probably be avoided. I can’t see Nomura wanting to end his first saga on such a note.

I can only agree with that.

We don't even know if numbers 9 through 12 will come back. if they do, I doubt that we are going to have enough time to flesh them out, given everything else that needs to be addressed. If nomura really wants them to comeback and develop them, then I think it would be best to save that for the next saga.

Well the thing is they’d probably be better fleshed out in the small amount of time than any newly introduced character. But even so the chances of any member between 9-12 returning as a new Org member are also somewhat slimm seeing most of them were sent to be killed off or were otherwise kept outside the loop.

 

[Wayward Wind]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I can see Vanitas coming back to be a Darkness if MX does his time travelling shenanigans
The secret ending hinted Kairi being a Light and maybe Lea/Roxas/Xion will replace Terra?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

We don't even know if numbers 9 through 12 will come back. if they do, I doubt that we are going to have enough time to flesh them out, given everything else that needs to be addressed. If nomura really wants them to comeback and develop them, then I think it would be best to save that for the next saga.

Exactly, we do not know that, and I am completely on the same wagon as you when we say that they frankly aren't even needed. Not to mention three out of the four are very unlikely to be even in Xehanort's Org, only Luxord stands a logical chance out of them.
Them being brought back even if it is just for two or three scenes is still more convenient though as introducing completely new characters. As the little screentime these characters most likely get could still be used to give at least a little more insight on the characters and probably set them up for a bigger role in the next saga just as the main characters.
With completely new characters all that little time would have to be designated to introduce these characters and explain why the fuck they are suddenly there and in Xehanort's Org when no one has heard of them before.

I wouldn't consider it a good way to handle things, but it’s not like we haven’t already seen this happen before. There would definitely be an advantage in using some characters we’re already y familiar with and especially seeing some of them could use some fleshing out. It would really be a waste to include new ones at this point seeing the chances of these new “Xehanorts” getting to play a role in the next saga are slim, just because of how they would be introduced.
I wouldn't say Larxene’s role was insignificant, it was quite important for the plot of CoM. So though it wasn’t that important for the series as a whole, it was still significant for that game. I definitely think she’s a great villain and would love facing her again.



Yeah, I think one also could say it also depends on his relationship to his opponent and whether he can sympathize with them or not. But yes it definitely mainly depends on Sora’s current mood and what state his friends are in.
It would be helpful, but I think the list of him intentionally spearing his opponent would be rather short...

Yes, I could also easily imagine Sora actually stepping aside and letting those that have suffered because of him decide his fate.

Well I guess that could be the case, but it kind of became one of her main source of suffering, I also just think it’s an interesting concept.
I kinda would like to see how KH2 would have changed if Days had been released before it. It would be interesting to see what kind of changes they’d have done.
I just remembered, didn’t Nomura actually kind of hint at at least the idea of Xion existing in an Interview after KH2 was released? So maybe the rough idea of her had already existed at the time of KH2s development, if that were the case it’s really too bad they didn’t add her in a cutscene in KH2FM, even if was just hooded.

Oh, I didn’t know that. The scenarios you mentioned are quite likely. It’s just too bad we probably will never get the chance to buy them.

Yeah, and exactly because it happened before it would be wise on Nomura's part to not repeat the error again. If he continues to do this the cast gets always expanded and expanded, but then you got a pile of 30+ characters in a cast of 50+ who are so underdeveloped and shallow it is no wonder people then start to ask what these characters are even doing there. Fleshing out existing characters should take priority over introducing new ones if the staff isn't able to combine both in a balanced manner.
With a smaller group of underdeveloped characters you can actually easily start to remedy the situation by gradually including those characters more, but if you introduce new characters with each entry the pile of underdeveloped characters grows until you simply cannot keep up anymore.
That's why I said "in the end" they were pretty insignificant. Larxene's role is confined solely to CoM alone and even there her role is subservient to Axel's and Marluxia's, who are the driving forces in Sora's story. Larxene does have an interesting base for a villain as she's pretty openly sadistic and outright mean, but in the overall scope of the series, she doesn't hold as much relevance, probably even less than Maleficent.

Luxord gets some scraps in Days (which are interesting, no doubt) and during the second Port Royal visit in KH2, but that's it.
And Demyx is practically really as useful as a hole in the head. I really wonder each time again why that numbskull has such a big fanbase when he does nothing but complain when he has to do a task, tries to load his assignments off to others in order so he can
loaf around and forsakes his colleagues when they are on a mission (I remember wanting to smash his skull in when Roxas had to face all the Heartless alone in more than one mission in Days because he was too lazy to get his ass off).

Exactly, people who say that Sora is too forgiving often forget that he's actually pretty fast in whipping his Keyblade out and when someone picks a fight with him he goes through most times.
The other extreme is however also often noticeable, most notably by rabid Organisation XIII-fans who paint him as an irrational bloodthirsty killer which isn't true at all, combine that with the often present notions that those tend to downplay the crimes of the Organisation and actually paint them as harmless and you'll see why this portrayal of Sora is often frowned upon.

Yep, I could also imagine Sora going like "If I forgive you or not doesn't matter, it's those whose lives you ruined you must ask for forgiveness if you really mean it!"
That said though, Xehanort does not strike me as a character who would actually ask to be forgiven, he has shown time and time again that he doesn't feel any remorse nor empathy. In DDD, he even mocks TAV's fates right into Mickey's face, grinning all the while.
There is besides all that also a danger hidden that if Sora himself forgives Xehanort people might be upset that Sora's opinion apparently counts more than those of the other major characters just because he's the protagonist. It would become worse if the opinions of the other characters aren't even heard to be taken into account.

Her main problem though is, just like with Roxas, that she wasn't allowed to exist on her own. Naminé pointed that out pretty spot on in Days when talking with Riku. Both Roxas and Xion were fighting hard to be their own entity, indicating a very strong will to live, but that was all for naught due to outside circumstances (some tend to blame Naminé and her memory messing, as well as accusing her of being too stupid to restore Sora without harming Roxas and Xion as well as sacrificing two existences for one is a bad deal, but that's bullshit), which when going through all stations of the events can be traced back again to Xehanort and Xemnas.
The memory-thing with Xion is just another layer put on top, some may argue to make her torment even more "severe" than that of the others, but I really hate comparing the torment of different characters with each other to say who "suffers more". It's derogatory towards the tormented characters as ALL of them had to put up with a lot of crap and are in pain.
One thing I can say for sure though: I bet that Xion would be much more widely accepted within the fandom if we would know the stuff from Days before KH 2. This is actually a neat experiment with the new HD Remasters, as here Days is available before KH 2 which will most likely in the second collection.
So fans who come new into the KH series with the HD Collections will actually experience Days before KH 2 and I'm honestly looking forward to that since these fans will most likely have a total different outlook on the series and I can imagine the end of Roxas' "summer vacation" in KH 2 will then hit those new folks even more hard than us.
Sadly, this will most likely also result in bad blood again when older fans and Xion/Days haters then start to pick on the new fans who experienced the series in this manner.
The character of Xion is an invention of Tomoco Kanemaki, the author of the novels. She isn't even a character thought up by Nomura himself unlike Roxas, Terra, Aqua and Ventus.
The only rough idea Nomura had on Roxas' time in the Organisation at the time of KH 2 was 1st what was shown in KH 2, that Roxas wanted to know why he can wield the Keyblade and where he came from and 2nd that a "girl-character nearly his age" would strongly influence his decision to leave the Organisation as well.
This character however could also have easily been Naminé or even Kairi, as the actual storyline for Days wasn't yet worked out in Detail at the time of KH 2. At that time, originally Nomura had planned to only make Birth By Sleep. What became Days was originally requested by Nintendo and Nomura decided that Roxas' untold time in the Organisation would fit for this opportunity while Coded (the original mobile phone version) was requested to be made as a lightweight title by Disney.

If they would be at least released in English I could import them from one big publisher around here to read them, as from there I also get the Bradygames-guides. The only thing that doesn't help me is the Japanese originals because I cannot read it, lol.

In my opinion the lack of a visual component can be quite a handicap, depending on the author. Because in order to illustrate how the character or the place look the story is interrupted to describe them and depending on the author it can take up to a whole page, which really detracts from the story itself.

Sadly, that’s true.
Yeah the guids released outside of japan aren’t all that great, from what I’ve heard. Why couldn’t they just translate the Ultimanias and release those instead, then even fans that are not interested in a guid would buy it.

It would definitely be the ultimate Ultimania for this Saga.
Nomura definitely gets more than one *laugh* out of it, by the way he talks about it.
The fact that nobody aside from him knows, kind of scares me. If something were to ever happen to him we’d never learn how it’ll concludes and adds up.

I know, lol, one of the reasons why my own FanFiction gets so long is because I enjoy taking time to describe locations, events and characters in detail. Most readers like that so far, but it does of course bloat the number of pages.
That's about the only advantage movies and video games have compared to books though, as in terms of sheer coverage, character development and depth none of them can beat the written word.

The funny thing is that the western guides continue to get worse in quality with each entry that comes out. The piggyback-guide for KH 2 was pretty well done with much needed information, same goes for the Days-guide.
The Birth by Sleep guide had some neat things like a Command-melding compendium and a command-encyclopedia in addition to Game Walkthroughs and character profiles, but the bestiary was mediocre at best compared to the former two guides while the DDD guide was another step down with having no information at all on the link boards of the Dream Eaters or how to collect the materials to make them, in the bestiary many stats are missing and the command list does nothing more than to list each command and what it does, no information at all where to get those commands etc.
The Ultimanias however are definitely superior to any western guide that was ever released for this series.

Yep, it's also a way to keep people interested and thinking about the series. Like with Neon Genesis Evangelion, it is such a mind screw and not completely understandable that there are still lots of debates and theorizing going on despite the series having ended in the 90s. The new Rebuild of Evangelion movie edition seems to go exactly the same route as with the third movie there's a radical departure from the established material of the TV Series.

Yeah, but that danger applies to any author who develops his world alone.

The hints of them having hearts have been around in the series for quite sometime now,, so DDD didn’t really change anything in this regard, it just confirmed it. I wonder if the Org members ever questioned why certain members seemed to age while others didn’t.

That’s probably true, seeing depending on how loosely you follow the story, it might slip under the radar.
Well from what we saw in Days the Org 13 did seem to run on a need to know bases for most members. Which works well with keeping them from developing too much of sense of self.

Yes it is, but when it comes to art it gets even harder sometimes.There are definitely certain age groups that are easier to differentiate than others.



I could see that format working very well. It would also give us the chance to explore/devote installments to develop characters that don’t really get a chance to shine in the series so far. Though I do see it work I’m not sure if this is an approach Nomura would want to take, seeing right now it seems he wants the series to be in sagas, I’m guessing similar to DBZ where there’s always one main villain per saga, but for the long run the episodic format would work better.

Yeah, it’s really unlikely that they’d do it just for fanservice.
This is true, I guess some people are just too spoiled and expect to be catered to.

Exactly, that's why I tend not to understand those fans who make such a ruckus over this. There wasn't even anything "retconned" as the fact that Nobodies have no hearts didn't become false, just the way to remedy that turned out to be not what many fans interpreted out of it after KH 2, but an interpretation cannot be retconned, it can only be proven as inaccurate (I won't even say "false" as that seems a bit too strong of a word).
Well, it comes in the end actually down to the question if really all of them fell for Xemnas' and Xigbar's lies or not. Right now there is also much more room for interpretations and theories as we also didn't get a confirmation on who actually developed a heart or not. In DDD, we get only mentions of Roxas, Xion, Axel, Naminé and Xemnas. Out of these five though, three are special cases and one is a Replica.
Replicas however were already confirmed to have hearts in CoM...

Indeed.
Yep, and it also shows in Days that always when Roxas goes into "Kiddie-ask-mode" members other than Axel give the most general, most emotionless answers possible and urge him to not give it much more thought.
They needed to have them function in their tasks, like robots, but the individuality needed to be suppressed as much as possible to prevent more heart-growing. Seeing that as a group occassional interaction was not preventable, Xemnas and Xigbar practically used continuous brain-conditioning to keep them in the mindset that all this is meaningless because it isn't real.
Nomura talks in the DDD Ultimania of abandoning the self results in losing your heart, so in conjunction not developing a self would result in no heart being born and nurtured. Therefore, Xemnas would probably allow a small bud to be born, but prevent nurturing as much as possible so that Xehanort's heart shard can take over without any problems when the time comes.

True, it also depends on the art style. In some art forms, you cannot even differentiate between 14 and 19year olds (or male and female, for that matter).

This format can even be implemented in a saga, the only thing Nomura would need to do is to let loose the leash a bit and allow for some meaningful enclosed plots to happen which instead of detract from the saga add to it without actually having the main plotline from the saga always pressingly around.
In the short run though the best opportunity to allow for more character development of other characters would be to include smaller parts of a saga devoted to that particular character, which should obviously include him/her being in Sora's party mandatory for a while.

Vanitas is in essence a character in the same predicament as Kairi, with the difference being the amount of games they both were in.
Both characters have good potential and an interesting premise, but got wasted so far in the development-department more than other important characters.

When I look around nowadays I get the vibe that people generally tend to have way overblown expectations in many areas.

I know it’s kind of a staple of the series and we do have some in BBS, but I’d just like to have a little more than we already have. KH’s worlds just seem a little empty and I really think just adding 2 or 3 NPCs in the city areas would help fix that.

Yeah you’re probably right about that. It would make sense judging by what we’ve seen so far in the series. I’m guessing Aqua’s statement at the KG shouldn’t be taken too literally.
I know it’s silly, but the fact that you just called Ven a princess made me chuckle.

Well yes, but I don’t know if it still influences the rest of the universe the same way an active heart does, seeing it kind of is a part of Sora’s right now.

Well I think it’s actually just as safe as splitting up to protect each princess. The Org has almost twice as many members so she’d be in danger one way or another. Also if the others are already captured than it’s already an all-or-nothing situation, this way at least they can be there to actively protect her and she’d have a better chance as well, seeing she’d be in a larger group.
Furthermore the same question could be asked about including Ven, after all he can basically be used as a replacement or a PoH seeing Xehanort is only after them because of their hearts of light.



I think it’s quite likely that they will stick around, at least as side characters.

Yeah, that should be avoided and I think it’ll probably be avoided. I can’t see Nomura wanting to end his first saga on such a note.

I can only agree with that.

You're certainly not the only one as many fans seem to have this as one of their main pet peeves. I'm just special in that regard, lol, as I don't give a damn about this at all. If there stand Man A, Woman B and Child C around in the wilderness somewhere is really very low on my prioritylist when it comes to things I'd like to be addressed. Such characters do in nine of ten cases add nothing to the story so they're then only there to be there.

Aqua's statement can also be interpreted differently, as that she wasn't giving a general lecture but a description of Terra's current conditions. As I explained earlier the intensity and mix of your emotions can cause the amount of one element in your heart to change. Hate (stronger, more intense form of dislike or animosity) and Rage (extreme form of anger and wrath) are very intense (and negative) emotions which cause darkness to grow. The darkness however does not cause these emotions, it's the other way around.
Wut? The abbreviation PoH can be read as both Princess or Prince, y'know? I know that especially the Japanese do like to sometimes introduce androgynous characters, but I think that Ventus can, despite all cuteness and sweetness, clearly be identified as a boy, rofl.

That's why I said not to look at the current situation, but the status of his heart will change soon when it "comes out of bed" and then it may become interesting.

Well, the notion that they might split up to protect each Princess is also only a fan speculation right now, so they might also not do that. If the other Princesses are napped the most wise decision would actually be to try and free them instead of fighting the new Org at the KG and risk the X-blade coming into being. For that matter, Kairi being able to fend for herself does surely yield much problems for Xehanort regardless if she counts as one of the seven or not.
True that, although Ven also has the unique status (and Vanitas, possibly) to already be a part of the X-blade in the past. In the event though that IF Kairi is the last remaining Princess to "hold the universe in place" and IF Ven's pure heart can be used in the same manner one would have to think about the prospect to actually keep both Kairi and Ven out of the battle and have them keep the universe stable until the other Princesses are brought back.

That they will be at least still included as side characters should be a given, or rescuing them would have been totally pointless.
But of course them still being major characters would be preferable.

We'll see how they handle it...

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Exactly, we do not know that, and I am completely on the same wagon as you when we say that they frankly aren't even needed. Not to mention three out of the four are very unlikely to be even in Xehanort's Org, only Luxord stands a logical chance out of them.
Them being brought back even if it is just for two or three scenes is still more convenient though as introducing completely new characters. As the little screentime these characters most likely get could still be used to give at least a little more insight on the characters and probably set them up for a bigger role in the next saga just as the main characters.
With completely new characters all that little time would have to be designated to introduce these characters and explain why the diddly they are suddenly there and in Xehanort's Org when no one has heard of them before.

Yeah, and exactly because it happened before it would be wise on Nomura's part to not repeat the error again. If he continues to do this the cast gets always expanded and expanded, but then you got a pile of 30+ characters in a cast of 50+ who are so underdeveloped and shallow it is no wonder people then start to ask what these characters are even doing there. Fleshing out existing characters should take priority over introducing new ones if the staff isn't able to combine both in a balanced manner.
With a smaller group of underdeveloped characters you can actually easily start to remedy the situation by gradually including those characters more, but if you introduce new characters with each entry the pile of underdeveloped characters grows until you simply cannot keep up anymore.
That's why I said "in the end" they were pretty insignificant. Larxene's role is confined solely to CoM alone and even there her role is subservient to Axel's and Marluxia's, who are the driving forces in Sora's story. Larxene does have an interesting base for a villain as she's pretty openly sadistic and outright mean, but in the overall scope of the series, she doesn't hold as much relevance, probably even less than Maleficent.

While I agree that they aren’t really necessarily needed, that would limit who could possibly be one of the unknow members as was shown in my list on page 6, they make up 6/8 of the more likely candidates for the three slots we really don’t have a clue who it could be.
It would definitely be more convenient to just reuse some of them, it would also develop them a little more which we all know is needed.

Fleshing out the ones we have definitely makes more sense, otherwise like you said we might end up having a cast of 50+ characters where more than half isn’t developed beyond having a name and a gimmick. There’s also always the option of dropping characters in favor of new ones, though this would piss of the fans of those characters.
Yeah it would be better if they focused on fleshing the ones we have right now and then introduce new characters.
While it’s true that Marluxia and Axel were the driving force in Sora’s story in CoM, I found Axel and Larxene were the more interesting and fun characters, especially when they were together.
Larxene definitely has a great base for a villain in my opinion, I just love her sadistic and playful nature. Her toying around with Sora was great. Well you’d hope she’s less significant than Maleficent after all she’s supposed to be the secondary threat Sora and Co. have to deal with, even if KH2 was bad at showcasing it.

Luxord gets some scraps in Days (which are interesting, no doubt) and during the second Port Royal visit in KH2, but that's it.
And Demyx is practically really as useful as a hole in the head. I really wonder each time again why that numbskull has such a big fanbase when he does nothing but complain when he has to do a task, tries to load his assignments off to others in order so he can
loaf around and forsakes his colleagues when they are on a mission (I remember wanting to smash his skull in when Roxas had to face all the Heartless alone in more than one mission in Days because he was too lazy to get his ass off).

Exactly, people who say that Sora is too forgiving often forget that he's actually pretty fast in whipping his Keyblade out and when someone picks a fight with him he goes through most times.
The other extreme is however also often noticeable, most notably by rabid Organisation XIII-fans who paint him as an irrational bloodthirsty killer which isn't true at all, combine that with the often present notions that those tend to downplay the crimes of the Organisation and actually paint them as harmless and you'll see why this portrayal of Sora is often frowned upon.

Yep, I could also imagine Sora going like "If I forgive you or not doesn't matter, it's those whose lives you ruined you must ask for forgiveness if you really mean it!"
That said though, Xehanort does not strike me as a character who would actually ask to be forgiven, he has shown time and time again that he doesn't feel any remorse nor empathy. In DDD, he even mocks TAV's fates right into Mickey's face, grinning all the while.
There is besides all that also a danger hidden that if Sora himself forgives Xehanort people might be upset that Sora's opinion apparently counts more than those of the other major characters just because he's the protagonist. It would become worse if the opinions of the other characters aren't even heard to be taken into account.

Her main problem though is, just like with Roxas, that she wasn't allowed to exist on her own. Naminé pointed that out pretty spot on in Days when talking with Riku. Both Roxas and Xion were fighting hard to be their own entity, indicating a very strong will to live, but that was all for naught due to outside circumstances (some tend to blame Naminé and her memory messing, as well as accusing her of being too stupid to restore Sora without harming Roxas and Xion as well as sacrificing two existences for one is a bad deal, but that's bullshit), which when going through all stations of the events can be traced back again to Xehanort and Xemnas.
The memory-thing with Xion is just another layer put on top, some may argue to make her torment even more "severe" than that of the others, but I really hate comparing the torment of different characters with each other to say who "suffers more". It's derogatory towards the tormented characters as ALL of them had to put up with a lot of crap and are in pain.
One thing I can say for sure though: I bet that Xion would be much more widely accepted within the fandom if we would know the stuff from Days before KH 2. This is actually a neat experiment with the new HD Remasters, as here Days is available before KH 2 which will most likely in the second collection.
So fans who come new into the KH series with the HD Collections will actually experience Days before KH 2 and I'm honestly looking forward to that since these fans will most likely have a total different outlook on the series and I can imagine the end of Roxas' "summer vacation" in KH 2 will then hit those new folks even more hard than us.
Sadly, this will most likely also result in bad blood again when older fans and Xion/Days haters then start to pick on the new fans who experienced the series in this manner.
The character of Xion is an invention of Tomoco Kanemaki, the author of the novels. She isn't even a character thought up by Nomura himself unlike Roxas, Terra, Aqua and Ventus.
The only rough idea Nomura had on Roxas' time in the Organisation at the time of KH 2 was 1st what was shown in KH 2, that Roxas wanted to know why he can wield the Keyblade and where he came from and 2nd that a "girl-character nearly his age" would strongly influence his decision to leave the Organisation as well.
This character however could also have easily been Naminé or even Kairi, as the actual storyline for Days wasn't yet worked out in Detail at the time of KH 2. At that time, originally Nomura had planned to only make Birth By Sleep. What became Days was originally requested by Nintendo and Nomura decided that Roxas' untold time in the Organisation would fit for this opportunity while Coded (the original mobile phone version) was requested to be made as a lightweight title by Disney.

If they would be at least released in English I could import them from one big publisher around here to read them, as from there I also get the Bradygames-guides. The only thing that doesn't help me is the Japanese originals because I cannot read it, lol.

Luxord was definitely a fun and interesting character even if he’s underdeveloped and has little to no screen time.
I’m with you on Demyx, never liked that guy... I think some of the reasons why he’s popular is because he’s like some boy band member, he has a overdramatic personality and the fact he is kinda girly, even for anime standards... If I never have to see him again that would still be too soon.

Yes I think his happy go luck and very friendly personality really distract from the fact that he’s killed a lot of Villains over the course of his journey.
Yeah the rabid Org. 13 fans do tend to overplay the fact that he has killed a lot of villains or just the Org. a little too much making it laughable, also they completely forget that Sora usually doesn’t start the fights or isn’t really in the wrong seeing he’s usually protecting others in those fights. I don’t get how one can overplay the fact that Sora kills and underplay the fact the Org “killed” even more, even preventing the rebirth of many and is doing so out of a very selfish reason.

It would be seem out of character for Xehanort, but who knows how he’ll react to having everything he worked for in his live crumble before his eyes. Though by judging how he’s been acting up until now mockingly taking down on the fates of those he’s hurt up to that point, it’s very unlikely that an event like that would change him too much. What I could see him do is pull this as a trick to buy himself more time or try to strike down our heroes with one final blow.
If they don’t voice the others opinion it would definitely come across poorly and as if Sora’s opinion was the most important one. However Sora forgiving him without the letting the others voice his opinion could lead to an interesting storyline, with some tension between the SRK trio and the others. All in all though I feel like it would be a bad decision, after all the Xehanort Saga should end there, so forgiving him and letting him go wouldn’t really give any closure seeing he’d still be out there.

Yes, but this way Xion’s suffering is a little more unique and not just a copy past of Roxas’. I feel it also adds to her character in a way. Blaming Namine is definitely BS, seeing it was never her decision to do any of this, she too was a victim of her circumstances. She didn’t seem to really want to end their existence, but to reawaken Sora she had to, It’s also important to note that she was being put under pressure by DiZ, so even if there was a way to reawaken him without them having to return to him, she couldn’t take that route. Well it’s true that both Xehanort and Xemans could be traced back to the root of all of it, but that doesn’t make DiZ and Marluxia not responsible for what they did which caused a large part of this problem.
As we’ve stated before in this thread, comparing their suffering is pointless, especially considering how different each of them are suffering.
I agree, I think she’s already quite a bit better received by those that started the series with Days. I expect that there will be a new wave of fans once the Re:Mixes are released, so the fandom will change once again. It’ll definitely be interesting to find out how the new fans will react to the events in the series now that it’s being told in a different order. I really hope Xion will be better accepted by the new fans coming into the series with the collections.
I know she’s not, at least not completely, Nomura’s creation but he still played a role in her creation and as we know the idea that a girl was involved in Roxas’ leaving already existed, though like you said this girl could have easily been Namine or Kairi. Even if he only planned on making BBS, he probably already had Days’ story roughly already in his head, even if he didn’t intend to tell it yet. Though I would guess, it likely changed a little over the course of making the game.

Yeah an english release would be enough, though I would hope that it would be released in the UK so that the importing wouldn’t cost me a limb. To bad learning Languages can’t be easy and fast, it would make live a lot easier.

I know, lol, one of the reasons why my own FanFiction gets so long is because I enjoy taking time to describe locations, events and characters in detail. Most readers like that so far, but it does of course bloat the number of pages.
That's about the only advantage movies and video games have compared to books though, as in terms of sheer coverage, character development and depth none of them can beat the written word.

The funny thing is that the western guides continue to get worse in quality with each entry that comes out. The piggyback-guide for KH 2 was pretty well done with much needed information, same goes for the Days-guide.
The Birth by Sleep guide had some neat things like a Command-melding compendium and a command-encyclopedia in addition to Game Walkthroughs and character profiles, but the bestiary was mediocre at best compared to the former two guides while the DDD guide was another step down with having no information at all on the link boards of the Dream Eaters or how to collect the materials to make them, in the bestiary many stats are missing and the command list does nothing more than to list each command and what it does, no information at all where to get those commands etc.
The Ultimanias however are definitely superior to any western guide that was ever released for this series.

Yep, it's also a way to keep people interested and thinking about the series. Like with Neon Genesis Evangelion, it is such a mind screw and not completely understandable that there are still lots of debates and theorizing going on despite the series having ended in the 90s. The new Rebuild of Evangelion movie edition seems to go exactly the same route as with the third movie there's a radical departure from the established material of the TV Series.

Yeah, but that danger applies to any author who develops his world alone.

I haven’t noticed that yet, but then again I haven’t really come all that far yet in your fanfiction.
I don’t know if that’s the only advantage the other medias have. Also I think some forms of media can come pretty close to the written word, such as graphic Novels if done right can be just as deep and develop the characters very nicely.

That’s just sad, especially for the fan’s that know what the japaneses are getting. I’m not really into guides seeing you can usually find the answers to your problem online pretty easily, but I know that if the ultimanias were translated and published here I’d still get them. I think it’s ridiculous that the guides we get are so poorly done in comparison.

It really does seem like it keep series alive. If you give them enough material to study and theorize about a series can out live it’s run time. But I think even though it can keep the show alive longer and get people hooked series that have too many mind screws and mysteries can also scare of new readers/viewers, so it’s kind of tricky to handle seeing if the information is hard to get people might get confused and lose interest.

That’s true, though for me it’s particularly scary in KH’s case, because the series is so dear to me.

Exactly, that's why I tend not to understand those fans who make such a ruckus over this. There wasn't even anything "retconned" as the fact that Nobodies have no hearts didn't become false, just the way to remedy that turned out to be not what many fans interpreted out of it after KH 2, but an interpretation cannot be retconned, it can only be proven as inaccurate (I won't even say "false" as that seems a bit too strong of a word).
Well, it comes in the end actually down to the question if really all of them fell for Xemnas' and Xigbar's lies or not. Right now there is also much more room for interpretations and theories as we also didn't get a confirmation on who actually developed a heart or not. In DDD, we get only mentions of Roxas, Xion, Axel, Naminé and Xemnas. Out of these five though, three are special cases and one is a Replica.
Replicas however were already confirmed to have hearts in CoM...

Indeed.
Yep, and it also shows in Days that always when Roxas goes into "Kiddie-ask-mode" members other than Axel give the most general, most emotionless answers possible and urge him to not give it much more thought.
They needed to have them function in their tasks, like robots, but the individuality needed to be suppressed as much as possible to prevent more heart-growing. Seeing that as a group occassional interaction was not preventable, Xemnas and Xigbar practically used continuous brain-conditioning to keep them in the mindset that all this is meaningless because it isn't real.
Nomura talks in the DDD Ultimania of abandoning the self results in losing your heart, so in conjunction not developing a self would result in no heart being born and nurtured. Therefore, Xemnas would probably allow a small bud to be born, but prevent nurturing as much as possible so that Xehanort's heart shard can take over without any problems when the time comes.

True, it also depends on the art style. In some art forms, you cannot even differentiate between 14 and 19year olds (or male and female, for that matter).

This format can even be implemented in a saga, the only thing Nomura would need to do is to let loose the leash a bit and allow for some meaningful enclosed plots to happen which instead of detract from the saga add to it without actually having the main plotline from the saga always pressingly around.
In the short run though the best opportunity to allow for more character development of other characters would be to include smaller parts of a saga devoted to that particular character, which should obviously include him/her being in Sora's party mandatory for a while.

Vanitas is in essence a character in the same predicament as Kairi, with the difference being the amount of games they both were in.
Both characters have good potential and an interesting premise, but got wasted so far in the development-department more than other important characters.

When I look around nowadays I get the vibe that people generally tend to have way overblown expectations in many areas.

Yes, though I guess if people just dismissed the fact that certain Nobodys quite clearly showed emotions, it would be easy to assume that they didn’t have or grow hearts. I think the main problem is that they had their own opinion on this matter already firmly formed and now that it’s been disproven they feel like it’s been retconned, even though even KH2 strongly hinted that Nobodies could develop a heart, otherwise why would have Axel reacted the way he did?
I would guess Xemnas and Xigbar didn’t tell them they wouldn’t age, but still it would probably be noticeable that some of them aged while others didn’t.
While this is true, there are certain facts, which do hint that certain characters, like Zexion, did develop their own heart.
Actually in your list there were three special Nobodies Roxas, Namine and Xemnas. But yeah right now we only have these five with confirmed hearts, though whether Xion should be included or not, is questionable because of the fact you’ve pointed out.

Yes, what Xemnas and Xigbar did was pretty clever that way everyone would think that they were acting upon memories or something along those lines, and at first it would be true.
It would make sense that a weak awareness of a self would lead to no heart being born or just not nurtured, so if that’s the case that would logically be what Xehanort wanted.

In the worst case the 16 year old daughter looks 8 years old and the 30-40 year old mother looks 16... I know of an anime where that was the case. So yeah the art style can have a big effect one ones perception of a characters unstated age.

I guess it could be implemented into a Saga, which might actually be a good idea to develop the characters better. I don’t think Namura will switch to this format anytime soon.
I think he doesn’t have to make the character inclusion in the party mandatory, he could just as easily make segments where you can play as them or have them as the playable in the game. I expect each saga to have it’s share of unnumbered entries which will focus on characters other than Sora.

I actually think in a way Vanitas is better developed than Kairi, when it comes to their roles. We actually get a lot more info on him than we do on Kairi, when it comes to his personality and relationships. That said, both of these characters definitely do have interesting premises and a lot of potential, which will hopefully be explored in the future installments of this series. To be honest I’d love to see a clash between these two characters, it would really fit a Yin-Yang motive. i.e. boy and girl, darkness and light, bad and good, uncaring and caring etc. I know that most of this also fits with Ventus, but still.

That’s true and I hate how they act cheated, if those high expectations aren’t fulfilled.

You're certainly not the only one as many fans seem to have this as one of their main pet peeves. I'm just special in that regard, lol, as I don't give a damn about this at all. If there stand Man A, Woman B and Child C around in the wilderness somewhere is really very low on my prioritylist when it comes to things I'd like to be addressed. Such characters do in nine of ten cases add nothing to the story so they're then only there to be there.

Aqua's statement can also be interpreted differently, as that she wasn't giving a general lecture but a description of Terra's current conditions. As I explained earlier the intensity and mix of your emotions can cause the amount of one element in your heart to change. Hate (stronger, more intense form of dislike or animosity) and Rage (extreme form of anger and wrath) are very intense (and negative) emotions which cause darkness to grow. The darkness however does not cause these emotions, it's the other way around.
Wut? The abbreviation PoH can be read as both Princess or Prince, y'know? I know that especially the Japanese do like to sometimes introduce androgynous characters, but I think that Ventus can, despite all cuteness and sweetness, clearly be identified as a boy, rofl.

That's why I said not to look at the current situation, but the status of his heart will change soon when it "comes out of bed" and then it may become interesting.

Well, the notion that they might split up to protect each Princess is also only a fan speculation right now, so they might also not do that. If the other Princesses are napped the most wise decision would actually be to try and free them instead of fighting the new Org at the KG and risk the X-blade coming into being. For that matter, Kairi being able to fend for herself does surely yield much problems for Xehanort regardless if she counts as one of the seven or not.
True that, although Ven also has the unique status (and Vanitas, possibly) to already be a part of the X-blade in the past. In the event though that IF Kairi is the last remaining Princess to "hold the universe in place" and IF Ven's pure heart can be used in the same manner one would have to think about the prospect to actually keep both Kairi and Ven out of the battle and have them keep the universe stable until the other Princesses are brought back.

That they will be at least still included as side characters should be a given, or rescuing them would have been totally pointless.
But of course them still being major characters would be preferable.

We'll see how they handle it...

Well I would only want them where it makes sense having people wander round in the wilderness wouldn’t really make any sense but, if you’re in a city or town and it’s empty that’s just kind of odd. Also I’d love to see the not used side characters of the films used as NPCs. For example it would have been fun if the Mad hatter and the March Hare were at the table in wonderland or if the sisters of ariel where in the castle in KH1, it would just add a little more magic. n my opinion the characters don’t have to add to the story but to the feel of the game, which well placed NPCs would. It was especially strange in KH2 where you could enter the market place in Agrabah, but it was completely empty.

This is true, one could also interpreted it as such. I really agree with your idea of how darkness and light connect to emotions.
I know, but it was more fun to read it as Princess. Yeah I’m pretty sure he’s a boy. I don’t think Disney would give the okay for them to include an androgynous character.

Yes, once it’s back in Ven’s body it will be interesting to see.

This is true, but what else will they do, they can’t just leave them be after all they are targets. While they could gather them, it would be questionable to keep them in one place where Xehanort could get to them all at once.
Yeah that would make sense though I’m pretty sure Xehanort would make coming to the KG unpossible to avoid and there for the fight would also be hard to avoid. This is true, but still she’d be quite inexperienced and if he sends two members she would be out matched.
Well if they were to keep Kairi and Ven out of the fight they’d be a few wielders short and it wouldn’t really make sense to leave them alone to fend for themselves, while the strongest fighters are at the KG fighting for the universe.

Them just disappearing would definitely make the rescue and most of the saga pointless.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I wonder whos going to fight who? Sora vs xehanort obviously, maybe backed up by donald, goofy, and mickey, and xehanort aided by xemnas, ansem, and young xehanort. Riku will most likely fight with terranort probably aided by aqua. Roxas and ven will take on vanitas and xigbar. Lea vs isa, with lea trying to save him. Kairi will most likely take on one of the new members alongside xion. Im not sure about the other lights or darknesses though.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I wonder whos going to fight who? Sora vs xehanort obviously, maybe backed up by donald, goofy, and mickey, and xehanort aided by xemnas, ansem, and young xehanort. Riku will most likely fight with terranort probably aided by aqua. Roxas and ven will take on vanitas and xigbar. Lea vs isa, with lea trying to save him. Kairi will most likely take on one of the new members alongside xion. Im not sure about the other lights or darknesses though.

Well considering that there are 7 lights and 13 darknesses I think it's save to assume it's not going to be just a one on one or that it's not just the seven light that will be fighting. I think the chances are good we'll take on some of the lights through out the story so that by the end when we come to the KG they won't be 13 anymore otherwise that would be pretty crazy. It would be cool if you could team up with any two of the GoLs or other main characters and take on the 13 SoDs.

But if we were to split them up and pair them up I'd say:
- Sora vs Xemnas
- Mickey vs young Xehanort
- Riku vs Ansem
- Lea vs Saïx (it is a given)
- Aqua vs Terranort (it would seem like a good rematch and would make sense)
- Ven vs Vanitas
- Roxas vs Xigbar
- Kairi vs Riku lookalike (Seeing I'd guess he'd be one of the weaker ones)
As for the others I don't know, I guess Xion, Donald and Goofy could probably take on one each, but seeing we don't know who the other potential candidates are. I'd think that Master Xehanort would most likely be fought last, so I didn't include him in my line up.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

While I agree that they aren’t really necessarily needed, that would limit who could possibly be one of the unknow members as was shown in my list on page 6, they make up 6/8 of the more likely candidates for the three slots we really don’t have a clue who it could be.
It would definitely be more convenient to just reuse some of them, it would also develop them a little more which we all know is needed.

Fleshing out the ones we have definitely makes more sense, otherwise like you said we might end up having a cast of 50+ characters where more than half isn’t developed beyond having a name and a gimmick. There’s also always the option of dropping characters in favor of new ones, though this would piss of the fans of those characters.
Yeah it would be better if they focused on fleshing the ones we have right now and then introduce new characters.
While it’s true that Marluxia and Axel were the driving force in Sora’s story in CoM, I found Axel and Larxene were the more interesting and fun characters, especially when they were together.
Larxene definitely has a great base for a villain in my opinion, I just love her sadistic and playful nature. Her toying around with Sora was great. Well you’d hope she’s less significant than Maleficent after all she’s supposed to be the secondary threat Sora and Co. have to deal with, even if KH2 was bad at showcasing it.

That is literally one of the biggest problems (or mysteries) Nomura gave us with the thirteen seekers. For the seven lights, we have actually too many candidates and we don't know yet who in the end it will be while for the thirteen it seems we have too few right now.
1. Master Xehanort
2. Xemnas
3. Ansem SoD
4. Xigbar
7. Saix
12. Young Xehanort

are the only truly confirmed members.
a version of Riku (either past or the Replica) and Vanitas are highly probable, but that also only brings us up to eight.
A version of Terra-Xehanort (Terra controlled against his will) is also highly hinted at, which would make nine, still leaving four seats vacant.
From the old Org members, Ienzo and Aeleus are shown to have been "switched sides" or at least don't follow MX anymore. Even and Dilan are said to be still "unstable" (Xaldin had the pointed ears while Vexen was in charge of the Replica project) so they are an either-or possibility.
Out of the others Luxord is the most likely to be another darkness simply because he was the last one together with Saix you had to fight before reaching Xemnas in KH 2. Marluxia and Larxene were sent to Castle Oblivion specifically because they were deemed as unfit and as "Traitors" much like Axel and Roxas would be later on.
So, even if we count Even, Dilan and Luxord, there would still be one seat left, and the only other possibility would be Demyx...out of all people that useless twit who's too lazy to even lift a finger? I can't imagine why Xehanort would want that guy to be in his cohort...that's like as if he would include Pete.

Then still though, who's still there that could be used? Eraqus against his will? Pretty farfetched considering not only is his heart within Terra's, but also considering that his body got destroyed by MX and Xehanort needs bodies to control as his puppets, not hearts. If a heart is already in that body he tries to subdue and enslave it, but a heart alone without a body is useless for Xehanort's purposes.
Ansem the Wise? Like Naminé has not really shown any combat abilities and sits in the RoD without memory right now.

I am not totally opposed on "dropping" (or sidelining) characters for an extended amount of time if the plot can justify it (and makes it even better if those characters can come back later), but that should be done with characters who are already developed far enough so that they don't need excessive amount of screentime anymore. Well developed characters can "endure" a break from spotlight better than underdeveloped ones do.
It would definitely make the characters we already have more worthwhile, instead of introducing even more characters to add to the heap of half-developed people.
Who's more interesting is also always a matter of personal taste, yet objectively spoken Larxene is effectively only Marluxia's henchwoman, who is himself only a "filler" villain. What they forced Naminé to do, and the consequences of those actions, impact the story in fact way more than their actual goal. What was their goal again? Taking over the Organisation? Yea? And then? There wasn't really any elaboration on why they even wanted all this beyond simple greed for power.
But I digress, our original topic was the overall significance of them to the series' plot, and while they do have more significance in CoM and are in general more important than both Luxord and Demyx, they are still far cry from actual major characters throughout the entire series.
For Maleficent one has to give her also the props in KH 2 that she was awfully short on resources, especially with Saix and Xemnas often taking the few stuff she had left as well.

Luxord was definitely a fun and interesting character even if he’s underdeveloped and has little to no screen time.
I’m with you on Demyx, never liked that guy... I think some of the reasons why he’s popular is because he’s like some boy band member, he has a overdramatic personality and the fact he is kinda girly, even for anime standards... If I never have to see him again that would still be too soon.

Yes I think his happy go luck and very friendly personality really distract from the fact that he’s killed a lot of Villains over the course of his journey.
Yeah the rabid Org. 13 fans do tend to overplay the fact that he has killed a lot of villains or just the Org. a little too much making it laughable, also they completely forget that Sora usually doesn’t start the fights or isn’t really in the wrong seeing he’s usually protecting others in those fights. I don’t get how one can overplay the fact that Sora kills and underplay the fact the Org “killed” even more, even preventing the rebirth of many and is doing so out of a very selfish reason.

It would be seem out of character for Xehanort, but who knows how he’ll react to having everything he worked for in his live crumble before his eyes. Though by judging how he’s been acting up until now mockingly taking down on the fates of those he’s hurt up to that point, it’s very unlikely that an event like that would change him too much. What I could see him do is pull this as a trick to buy himself more time or try to strike down our heroes with one final blow.
If they don’t voice the others opinion it would definitely come across poorly and as if Sora’s opinion was the most important one. However Sora forgiving him without the letting the others voice his opinion could lead to an interesting storyline, with some tension between the SRK trio and the others. All in all though I feel like it would be a bad decision, after all the Xehanort Saga should end there, so forgiving him and letting him go wouldn’t really give any closure seeing he’d still be out there.

Yes, but this way Xion’s suffering is a little more unique and not just a copy past of Roxas’. I feel it also adds to her character in a way. Blaming Namine is definitely BS, seeing it was never her decision to do any of this, she too was a victim of her circumstances. She didn’t seem to really want to end their existence, but to reawaken Sora she had to, It’s also important to note that she was being put under pressure by DiZ, so even if there was a way to reawaken him without them having to return to him, she couldn’t take that route. Well it’s true that both Xehanort and Xemans could be traced back to the root of all of it, but that doesn’t make DiZ and Marluxia not responsible for what they did which caused a large part of this problem.
As we’ve stated before in this thread, comparing their suffering is pointless, especially considering how different each of them are suffering.
I agree, I think she’s already quite a bit better received by those that started the series with Days. I expect that there will be a new wave of fans once the Re:Mixes are released, so the fandom will change once again. It’ll definitely be interesting to find out how the new fans will react to the events in the series now that it’s being told in a different order. I really hope Xion will be better accepted by the new fans coming into the series with the collections.
I know she’s not, at least not completely, Nomura’s creation but he still played a role in her creation and as we know the idea that a girl was involved in Roxas’ leaving already existed, though like you said this girl could have easily been Namine or Kairi. Even if he only planned on making BBS, he probably already had Days’ story roughly already in his head, even if he didn’t intend to tell it yet. Though I would guess, it likely changed a little over the course of making the game.

Yeah an english release would be enough, though I would hope that it would be released in the UK so that the importing wouldn’t cost me a limb. To bad learning Languages can’t be easy and fast, it would make live a lot easier.

Yep, but the little screentime he had was worthwhile. Luxord is to a certain extent "classy" and it seems that he does amoral things not because he actively likes to see other people suffer (like Xehanort or Larxene) but more like because he likes to play games with high bets where ethic and moralistic concerns would only cheapen or hinder the challenge. With a bit more development and more focus I could imagine Luxord becoming something similar to a mix of Setzer (from the original FF VI, not the KH version) and David Xanatos from Gargoyles.
Good to know, lol. It's also not that I hate the character, I'm just personally annoyed by his way too overblown/overdramatic personality (as you say) and don't understand why so many fans put so much emphasis on this useless twit. He's not only the most insignificant Organisation member of all, but also emphasizes something of a freeloader and lazy ass, always looking to dump his own tasks on others and even leaves Roxas alone to fend for himself on missions because "work means sweating", man, goddamn sissy, do you need your manicure or what? Normally I have no problems with some characters acting "girly" or more sensitive, but that guy is way overdoing it and combined with his other traits I just find him a waste of time.
That said, I wouldn't go into rage-mode or bitch if he gets a scene in future KH titles, but I also won't be missing anything if Nomura decides to leave that nincompoop out. Out of all the underdeveloped characters he is certainly the one I am interested in the very least.

That's exactly what annoys me the most, the constant downplaying of the shit the Organisation pulled, but that's not only the case with the Organisation alone. Many people who are fans of the villains tend to handwave the suffering and misery they caused in order to swoon over their (allegedly) "oh so saaad" backstory and how they must be forgiven, pitied, pandered and met with understanding even if they show zero remorse or acknowledgement of the crap they pulled. It's like flipping the table on who's victim and who's culprit on purpose.
I can understand more sympathetic notions towards individuals who show that they truly feel bad for what they've done and actively try to make up for it, like DiZ/Ansem the Wise does. I won't deny that I absolutely despise his actions during Days and the KH 2 Prologue, but Ansem has shown more than once now that he truly greatly regrets this and tries to make amends even if he cannot ever take away the pain he caused completely.
Riku is on the same boat, but I have yet to see anyone else of the "true" villains to show any remorse. Not anyone of the direct "Xehanorts", nor Xigbar, Saix, Vanitas or anyone else of the members of the Original Org except Lea.

Xehanort trying to pull a trick with playing the remorseful I can actually see him playing easier than him truly feeling it. This fits better with Xehanort's character and his fixation on his own importance and disregard for other hearts.
Xemnas tried that as well already, lol, and Sora didn't buy it then, so I doubt it would be much different here.
An outcome like that would surely create some tension, especially when Xehanort pulls even more crap in KH 3 which causes even more pain and suffering in the short term. The only fitting result with Xehanort being "forgiven" and let go would be if he's stripped of any power he ever had and condemned to make up for his crap the rest of his life, although that would leave us still with the problem that he's still around, therefore really withholding closure.

Well, there are several fans out there who will readily tell you that Xion's entire character is in the end just a mixed carbon copy of Roxas' and Riku Replica's suffering from the get go with a gender swap to mix things up a little.
In the end though, even when TAV and NRX are looked at individually and the circumstances of their suffering varies, they have all in common that they are all in pain and unable to proper exist atm. Roxas, Xion and Naminé lack a physical existence as a whole, Ventus' heart is injured and dislocated from its rightful place, Aqua is trapped inside the RoD and Terra inside his own body/Xehanort's darkness.
The only case one could make against Naminé is that she didn't stand up to Marluxia and Larxene from the beginning and refuse to alter Sora's memories (later when Marluxia ordered her to erase Sora's memories she did resist and was willing to disappear for her defiance), but at that time not only did she feel incredibly lonely and longed desperately for a friend, she also didn't know just how grave the consequences of this memory meddling would be. Right before Sora, Donald and Goofy go to sleep she tells them with confidence that she will be able to put their memories back together even if it takes some time. She didn't expect there so many complications coming up, which she also discussed with Riku in a scene during Days.
Manipulating Sora's memories and "experimenting" with the Keyblade hero was within the original plan of the Organisation (ergo Xehanort's), as the Days Ultimania shows:

-- So at the start of the Replica Project they didn't have plans to get rid of Roxas?
Nomura: That's right. Originally the plan was to keep their power in balance. If it had been maintained, there would have been no need to get rid of one of them. But in the end Xion began absorbing too much power, and so they no longer needed Roxas. Xemnas had nothing to do with the plan, however, and only the people below him were concerned with it. Xemnas only cared that Kingdom Hearts be completed. Originally the Castle Oblivion plan was to use both Roxas and Sora, but since that changed it would be equally convenient to wait until Sora woke up in Kingdom Hearts II and use him then.

They originally planned to use both Roxas and Sora, so in the end Xehanort is again responsible, as without him planning the whole stuff Naminé would not have needed to restore Sora's memories and destroy Roxas' and Xion's existences in the process, nor would DiZ have needed to put on pressure to hurry up because time was running short nor would Marluxia have been able to hijack the original Castle Oblivion plan for his rebellion.

It is pointless. The point is that they all suffer, to say that, i.e. "but Aqua is suffering more than the others" is just bland favoritism and trying to put one of the suffering characters over the others, as if saying X is hurting more than Y makes the pain of X somehow more "legit" than the pain of Y or that Y doesn't "deserve" to be saved because he/she suffers "less" than X.

That Xion is received better by those who started out with Days is not that surprising, it's the same with those who didn't start with KH 1. Most who did start out with the first game tend to be way more critical and/or unforgiving with the later entries than fans who jumped in midway.
With the HD Remixes we're going to get a whole new type of KH fans into the fold, that's going to be very interesting and it can become pretty awesome if the majority of the older fans does not behave like an elitist group and berates new fans just because they see Days as an integral part of the story from the beginning or anything similar directed at an entry in the series (when the second HD Remix is out) that isn't the first title.
I am completely honest when I say that sometimes I get so fed up that I really wish all those who needlessly bash the development of the series would just take their dearly beloved perfect KH 1, treat it as a stand-alone title and ignore the rest if it bothers them this much.
It was a rough concept already, yes, and Nomura has stated that he has the general framework of the story already complete. Fleshing it out to complete story status though happens gradually, as i.e. if someone says that Ventus wasn't thought of by the time of KH 2 that's a lie, Nomura already thought of TAV while working on KH2, the only thing he wasn't yet sure about if Ventus should look like Sora or Roxas, but even that decision was made when KH2 Final Mix came around.
On the other hand though it wonders me anyways that some people keep bitching at Nomura that he hasn't everything planned out. NO big story that goes over several volumes is 100% planned out from the start, and in actuality when you look at the Director's Secret Report and other supplementary material from KH 2, Days, Coded and BBS, pretty much of the stuff revealed in DDD (except the time travel) was actually foreshadowed and hinted at before.

Heh, I've imported quite some books from the US already, and it wasn't that expensive. Now importing the 10th Anniversary Fan Selection Soundtrack from Japan was expensive due to stupid EU customs and taxes.

I haven’t noticed that yet, but then again I haven’t really come all that far yet in your fanfiction.
I don’t know if that’s the only advantage the other medias have. Also I think some forms of media can come pretty close to the written word, such as graphic Novels if done right can be just as deep and develop the characters very nicely.

That’s just sad, especially for the fan’s that know what the japaneses are getting. I’m not really into guides seeing you can usually find the answers to your problem online pretty easily, but I know that if the ultimanias were translated and published here I’d still get them. I think it’s ridiculous that the guides we get are so poorly done in comparison.

It really does seem like it keep series alive. If you give them enough material to study and theorize about a series can out live it’s run time. But I think even though it can keep the show alive longer and get people hooked series that have too many mind screws and mysteries can also scare of new readers/viewers, so it’s kind of tricky to handle seeing if the information is hard to get people might get confused and lose interest.

That’s true, though for me it’s particularly scary in KH’s case, because the series is so dear to me.

Oh, I didn't even know yet that you read it, lol.

It of course also depends on the scope of the written word in question. Material such as Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter is pretty heavy on stuff that's covered so that even over-length films cannot grasp the whole thing (like LotR) or they need to make two movies for one book (like the last Harry Potter) in order to not leave out too much important stuff. In the earlier Potter-films it also shows that they have dumped much of the material from the book.
Video Games may however have it even worse in that regard because you need to dedicate much space to gameplay, flashy effects and gimmicks like Multiplayer.

The guides we get around here are also often dedicated to be as "spoiler-free" as possible while the Ultimanias go actually more in-depth about the story. I guess that's just a different weighing of priorities between the west and Japan.

Lol yeah, that's actually describing Evangelion spot-on, as it can and does scare off new readers/viewers, but also hooks up some more who see it as a challenge to actually get into the material. I am also pretty confident that, compared to Evangelion, KH is actually one if not two levels easier in terms of mind screw. Both are surely not lightweight titles at all, but EVA still outperforms KH, as does Metal Gear Solid most likely (I didn't follow MGS that closely).

I don't think we'll going to lose Nomura that fast, lol.

Yes, though I guess if people just dismissed the fact that certain Nobodys quite clearly showed emotions, it would be easy to assume that they didn’t have or grow hearts. I think the main problem is that they had their own opinion on this matter already firmly formed and now that it’s been disproven they feel like it’s been retconned, even though even KH2 strongly hinted that Nobodies could develop a heart, otherwise why would have Axel reacted the way he did?
I would guess Xemnas and Xigbar didn’t tell them they wouldn’t age, but still it would probably be noticeable that some of them aged while others didn’t.
While this is true, there are certain facts, which do hint that certain characters, like Zexion, did develop their own heart.
Actually in your list there were three special Nobodies Roxas, Namine and Xemnas. But yeah right now we only have these five with confirmed hearts, though whether Xion should be included or not, is questionable because of the fact you’ve pointed out.

Yes, what Xemnas and Xigbar did was pretty clever that way everyone would think that they were acting upon memories or something along those lines, and at first it would be true.
It would make sense that a weak awareness of a self would lead to no heart being born or just not nurtured, so if that’s the case that would logically be what Xehanort wanted.

In the worst case the 16 year old daughter looks 8 years old and the 30-40 year old mother looks 16... I know of an anime where that was the case. So yeah the art style can have a big effect one ones perception of a characters unstated age.

I guess it could be implemented into a Saga, which might actually be a good idea to develop the characters better. I don’t think Namura will switch to this format anytime soon.
I think he doesn’t have to make the character inclusion in the party mandatory, he could just as easily make segments where you can play as them or have them as the playable in the game. I expect each saga to have it’s share of unnumbered entries which will focus on characters other than Sora.

I actually think in a way Vanitas is better developed than Kairi, when it comes to their roles. We actually get a lot more info on him than we do on Kairi, when it comes to his personality and relationships. That said, both of these characters definitely do have interesting premises and a lot of potential, which will hopefully be explored in the future installments of this series. To be honest I’d love to see a clash between these two characters, it would really fit a Yin-Yang motive. i.e. boy and girl, darkness and light, bad and good, uncaring and caring etc. I know that most of this also fits with Ventus, but still.

That’s true and I hate how they act cheated, if those high expectations aren’t fulfilled.

Well, that's their own fault then for taking an interpreted headcanon already as canon in a still ongoing work. If a story isn't finished yet you have to expect new developments that may expand on already known facts. Assuming that Nobodies don't have hearts is in fact still true, even the glossary in DDD still says that. That they can grew a new heart however wasn't known so far and kept secret by Xemnas, Xehanort and Xigbar (Ansem the Wise found out, but refused to believe it until later when his machine overloads in KH2). As you say though, there were enough hints already towards this during the whole series, heck, when Axel says "Hey, I'm enjoying this." in Chain of Memories he actually puts his hand on his chest where the heart would be, the subtle foreshadowing is everywhere.
I guess the question which Org members actually did develop a heart besides Axel, Xemnas, Naminé and Roxas will spark many debates.
That's what I said, three special cases (Xemnas, Naminé and Roxas) as well as one Replica (Xion). Replicas already have a heart as shown with Replica Riku, so out of the five "confirmed" Lea/Axel is actually the only one who could be considered a "normal" case.

Yep, they fooled practically everyone with it and it is another testament to Xehanort's manipulative powers and charisma (which Xemnas inherited quite a bunch of) that they managed to figuratively brainwash people for so long and let the other Org members keep denying their own selves.
Indeed, Xehanort would want something unripe there in order to keep the body stable and to have something for his heart seed to take over, but nothing more than a husk would be needed for that, any nurturing that goes too far would be counterproductive as it would increase resistance to Xehanort's control.
That's also why Young Xehanort described Roxas as a worthy candidate originally. In his "Zombie"-mode without any true sense of self shortly after being born he would have been easy prey for Xehanort's plan.

Now that's a bit extreme, lol.
But I agree that it can hinge heavily on the art-style in question.

It would be already a good help if Nomura does not spread out the story of the next saga as much as he did with this one. If they really have to go more consoles again, they should decide on one handheld and one home console and then stick with it.
If we go by the premise not only having character interaction between themselves but also with Sora, having them as party members would be the best bet as I cannot really see Sora as a party member in another characters party (except if they would go full player control so that you can even choose who will be your party leader and main controllable character).

Vanitas' role might be more active in the one game we saw him so far than Kairi had in several games, yes, and we get a more clear glimpse on his personality, but Kairi got parts of this as well in KH 1 and 2. Otherwise they've been handled pretty similar, which is actually another proof on how wrongly Kairi was handled, as she's a supposed main character like Riku and Sora or TAV, while Vanitas is in essence "only" a supporting major antagonist like Xigbar (main antagonist is Xehanort, and for KH 1 and 2 Ansem and Xemnas).
That would probaly not sit well with many male fans, the "bad" or "uncaring" label being associated mainly with the male sex and the opposite with the female. Having Ventus as the exact opposite of Vanitas actually shows of this effect better with using the same gender, proving that the gender actually doesn't matter.
I also remember that there were some fans who stated that they were even somewhat unhappy that all the pure hearts of light are female, indirectly indicating the male sex of being incapable of purity, which was why they welcomed Ventus as a contrasting example even if it was made artificially.
That being said, Larxene and Maleficent are both female, but already adults. It would be neat to have an "evil"/bad character around who is female and actually around Kairi's or Xion's age (without being just another "clone") of them.

Exactly, some more humility would work wonders around some parts of fandoms, not only in KH.

Well I would only want them where it makes sense having people wander round in the wilderness wouldn’t really make any sense but, if you’re in a city or town and it’s empty that’s just kind of odd. Also I’d love to see the not used side characters of the films used as NPCs. For example it would have been fun if the Mad hatter and the March Hare were at the table in wonderland or if the sisters of ariel where in the castle in KH1, it would just add a little more magic. n my opinion the characters don’t have to add to the story but to the feel of the game, which well placed NPCs would. It was especially strange in KH2 where you could enter the market place in Agrabah, but it was completely empty.

This is true, one could also interpreted it as such. I really agree with your idea of how darkness and light connect to emotions.
I know, but it was more fun to read it as Princess. Yeah I’m pretty sure he’s a boy. I don’t think Disney would give the okay for them to include an androgynous character.

Yes, once it’s back in Ven’s body it will be interesting to see.

This is true, but what else will they do, they can’t just leave them be after all they are targets. While they could gather them, it would be questionable to keep them in one place where Xehanort could get to them all at once.
Yeah that would make sense though I’m pretty sure Xehanort would make coming to the KG unpossible to avoid and there for the fight would also be hard to avoid. This is true, but still she’d be quite inexperienced and if he sends two members she would be out matched.
Well if they were to keep Kairi and Ven out of the fight they’d be a few wielders short and it wouldn’t really make sense to leave them alone to fend for themselves, while the strongest fighters are at the KG fighting for the universe.

Them just disappearing would definitely make the rescue and most of the saga pointless.

I can see where this comes from, and I would definitely not say no to this, although I personally certainly treat this as a "nice-to-have", not a "must-to-have". It would be neat if they address this, but I don't feel it as being high in the priority list considering some more glaring flaws the series has to adhere to.

Well, Marluxia is already pretty androgynous at first sight and I heard of several fans mistaking Riku for a girl in KH 1 due to the hair and eyelashes (young KH original characters in general have pretty luscious eyelashes, even Terra!) at first until they notice his body build.
Ventus and Roxas however, despite looking somewhat delicate from some angles are easily identificable as male.

Who knows? Maybe the seven Princesses will actually call him their "Prince", rofl.

Right now it really looks like Xehanort will dictate all the circumstances, but I doubt that all will go as he envisioned. His plans need to fail finally as no one can make always flawless plans that work every time. Even Emperor Palpatine, a master schemer, got duped in the end.
Funny thing is we have more candidates for the seven lights, which is the smaller group, than for the thirteen seekers right now. For the seekers, we have to even count people who most likely don't want to fight for that side, like Terra and (if he's included) the Riku Replica.

Yep, they would then just be brought back to be cannon fodder for Xehanort, which would be pretty lame especially since they already were pawns and cannon fodder before that and are in such torment right now because of what Xehanort already did.

 

[Roxie1563]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I lost count on how Sephly and AdrainXIII is talking back and forth, lol.. But it's interesting to see the back and forth. xD

Speaking of which, don't you think the final thirteen member for the Seekers should be Venitas?