Should Nobodies have Memories Theoretically?

[Veritas7340]

This line of thought recently dawned on me. From what I recall from CoM, Namine said that memories resided in the heart, or rather, that she had messed with the memories within Sora's heart.

So it appears that in the KH universe, memories are found inside hearts.

With this in mind, how can Nobodies have memories? I realize that according to DDD, they have the abiltiies to regrow their hearts if given the right circumstances. However, shouldn't they at least be really fuzzy/distorted given their Nobody nature or am I forgetting something?

 

[Gram]

It's not known or stated why. All that we know is when, in the rare occasion, that a nobody is formed from a person as they turn into a heartless is that the body+soul change form and reform in the inbetween realm.

Why they retain the memories is never stated though the memories are very important to a nobody because they base their identity and such from them and as we seen in people like the Org the memories are mostly if not entirely clear and fine.

It's only in the unique and special cases Roxas and Namine that you have a nobody forming without memories and in the case of Xemnas a nobody forming with more than one set of memories.

You could speculate that it's related to the heart though. Nobodies are born from a strong heart turning heartless, it's the strength of that heart that forms the nobody so it's likely the strong will is also the reason why the memories are retained.

 

[FangirlfromHell]

I think one good theory is that the "heart" leaves imprints of certain memories in the "mind" of the Nobody/Heartless. They're not actually the full memories, but vestiges of them that were powerful enough to remain even when the heart disappeared. Not a very good theory mind you, but it's one that I kind of like.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Keep in mind, Ansem hypothesized that Roxas didn't have Sora's memories because Sora didn't stay a Heartless for very long. I suspect that the memories start to drain from the heart once its separated from its body and as the heartless loses its sense of self.

 

[MyNameisAnsem]

Keep in mind, Ansem hypothesized that Roxas didn't have Sora's memories because Sora didn't stay a Heartless for very long. I suspect that the memories start to drain from the heart once its separated from its body and as the heartless loses its sense of self.

When did Ansem hypothesize that? Was it in an Ansem Report?

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

When did Ansem hypothesize that? Was it in an Ansem Report?

Yeah. Here let me get it:

[h=3]Secret Ansem's Report 12[/h]Apart from Naminé, Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans, but Sora's Nobody, Roxas, has lost Sora's memories.This is likely because Sora's time as a Heartless was short, having recovered his heart and returned to his human form soon after leaving behind Roxas, his Nobody.

 

[Solo]

I suspect that the memories start to drain from the heart once its separated from its body and as the heartless loses its sense of self.

Very likely, I think. Didn't Sora also mention that when he was falling into darkness, he started to forget (although he held on to a particularly important bit about Kairi, thus allowing him to find his way back to her)? My memory is a bit fuzzy when it comes to the games, though, so pardon me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Very likely, I think. Didn't Sora also mention that when he was falling into darkness, he started to forget (although he held on to a particularly important bit about Kairi, thus allowing him to find his way back to her)? My memory is a bit fuzzy when it comes to the games, though, so pardon me if I'm mistaken.

You're correct! So that's why I believe that.

 

[MyNameisAnsem]

Ah, thanks for the Ansem Report. It does make sense. Now that I think of it, and I can't believe I didn't realize it before, then if memories are stored in the heart, then that's a reason to support why Nobodies can have hearts. They have to be stored somewhere. Of course, I know now that they definitely can have hearts. I wish I would have realized this long ago XD

 

[ChibiHearts249]

Perhaps Nobodies are like a sponge, and they retain as much as they can for a time until it all drains away?
I don't think we've actually seen PROOF that they eventually forget...But it's a fairly sound assumption.

 

[nxtgarnett5]

Perhaps Nobodies are like a sponge, and they retain as much as they can for a time until it all drains away?
I don't think we've actually seen PROOF that they eventually forget...But it's a fairly sound assumption.

I don't feel like sponge is the right word, I don't feel like they forget what happens, or that it starts to drain away. I feel maybe that they just kind of suppress somethings that they don't want in the open. That way it might seem like things are fading. Kind of how Saix called Axel "Lea" in Days

 

[Gram]

Perhaps Nobodies are like a sponge, and they retain as much as they can for a time until it all drains away?
I don't think we've actually seen PROOF that they eventually forget...But it's a fairly sound assumption.

I don't feel like sponge is the right word, I don't feel like they forget what happens, or that it starts to drain away. I feel maybe that they just kind of suppress somethings that they don't want in the open. That way it might seem like things are fading. Kind of how Saix called Axel "Lea" in Days

A little of both really. A nobody is a rare by-product of the heartless, this happens because the heart that has become a heartless is so strong and has such a prominent will that that will carries onto the nobody itself as it forms from the discarded body+soul.
The heart "imprints" the discarded shell, the imprint being memories of who they were, which shapes their personality, presumably powers and overall existence.

Sora mentioned his memories were fading while a heartless, we know that Roxas wasn't born long after Sora turned heartless, so it's safe to assume Sora forgetting was this "imprinting" taking place as Sora's memories were transferring to Roxas.
Of course Kairi interrupted this process, "purifying" him as Nomura once put it, and more of less granting Sora a new human, physical form.
Because Sora was only a heartless shortly the memories could not go to Roxas cause Sora reclaimed them before they left. This left Roxas empty, he had no human memories to shape himself with and was thus blank.

Ironically though it was Roxas' lack of Sora's memories that let him develop as he did. With no memories to go by he had to form his own self rather than just being a continuation of Sora's.

 

[rufusisaghost]

A Nobody might be a complicated matter, they are still beings after all, created from someone who DID have a heart. So some of that can still be left behind. Like how they might have maybe a little bit of a distorted twist to their previous personalities and abilities, they might also have the distorted memories of how they used to be as well. I can see how maybe Heartless don't have memories anymore, they are just creatures of darkness now. It might be different in every case, too. Depending on how strong willed their Somebody was before them. But then again, Sora was very strong willed, and Roxas had little to no memory for a long time (of course some of that was DiZ screwing around with Roxas). They might be pretty vague anyway to start off with. Like Saix said, they can't feel emotion, but they remember what it was like to feel that way, which gave them a way to 'fake it'.

 

[Nayru's Love]

There's also the possibility that Nobodies don't have the memories themselves, but something like a "mind," instead. In that sense, Nobodies can be very similar to Lingering Wills, especially considering how they both share a survivalist nature.

 

[rufusisaghost]

There's also the possibility that Nobodies don't have the memories themselves, but something like a "mind," instead. In that sense, Nobodies can be very similar to Lingering Wills, especially considering how they both share a survivalist nature.

I believe this is very possible as well.

 

[Gram]

There's also the possibility that Nobodies don't have the memories themselves, but something like a "mind," instead. In that sense, Nobodies can be very similar to Lingering Wills, especially considering how they both share a survivalist nature.

Isn't this the same thing though? Memories define who you are, the mind is who you are, to have a "mind" would mean they have "memory".
Unless you mean the memories aren't in the nobodies themselves but somehow just connected to them in some way from the heart lost to heartless?

 

[Nayru's Love]

Isn't this the same thing though? Memories define who you are, the mind is who you are, to have a "mind" would mean they have "memory".
Unless you mean the memories aren't in the nobodies themselves but somehow just connected to them in some way from the heart lost to heartless?

I like to think of minds and memories to be different from each other, or at least to a certain degree. It would help explain LW, for instance; whereas LW would inherit Terra's mind, Xehanort would keep hold of his memories. Or, Xion or Roxas with Sora's memories. They would experience the memories, but not necessarily manifest his mind, or consciousness. In theory, anyways.

 

[Gram]

I like to think of minds and memories to be different from each other, or at least to a certain degree. It would help explain LW, for instance; whereas LW would inherit Terra's mind, Xehanort would keep hold of his memories. Or, Xion or Roxas with Sora's memories. They would experience the memories, but not necessarily manifest his mind, or consciousness. In theory, anyways.

The LS having Terra's actual mind idea is shot though since we see that conscious mind debating with MX's within the Apprentice during Blank Points.
The LS is said to be Terra's lingering thoughts by Nomura so that to me makes it more of an extension of Terra's mind rather than the actual thing.

Hmm I can't agree with that theory. I won't say their exactly the same but memories are a key component to the mind, the mind is built of them as it were, I don't think their entirely separable.
Within KH the heart and mind seem more or less the same as the heart is that person. Or at the very least the "mind" is the identity a heart forms for itself.
We see this with Sora and Ansem who both became a being with only a heart. The memories appear to be a key component in that makeup as well since by Sora regaining his mind, form and keeping his memories left Roxas blank.

We know nobodies retain their human memory and from what we've seen in the normal cases, that nobody bases a identity for itself based on those memories which seems to make them nearly the same as the human counterpart.
Given enough time and the right conditions the nobody will then form a heart based on the new memories and experiences gained further showing that memories help form the heart and the mind is the identity the heart identifies itself by.

It's all just to big an interconnected web for them to be simply separate concepts. Also, now that I've typed all this, makes me realize that it seems to work in the reverse of your idea when you look at it. o_0
People's hearts and minds grow from experiences, bonds and the memory of those things. The nobody inherits those memories, taking on a similar mind to the human and grows heart-wise from there all over again.

 

[Nayru's Love]

The LS having Terra's actual mind idea is shot though since we see that conscious mind debating with MX's within the Apprentice during Blank Points.

Not necessarily; Terra's and MX's conversation was metaphysical, so to speak, to which the minds of those characters could be distinctive from their counterparts in the real world. Case in point, Vanitas and Ventus-Vanitas. Neither of us can be certain, considering we still are talking about Apprentice Xehanort's property disputes and the ambiguous role of the mind.

Hmm I can't agree with that theory. I won't say their exactly the same but memories are a key component to the mind, the mind is built of them as it were, I don't think their entirely separable.
Within KH the heart and mind seem more or less the same as the heart is that person. Or at the very least the "mind" is the identity a heart forms for itself.
We see this with Sora and Ansem who both became a being with only a heart. The memories appear to be a key component in that makeup as well since by Sora regaining his mind, form and keeping his memories left Roxas blank.

The exact chemistry between the mind and memories would be...useful to know, I'm sure you can agree (although I do like your relation of the mind to identity). We know that "minds" are an existing plot device, but they're not as fleshed out as memories.

As for Roxas, there was an idea I had once upon a time about the possibility of Nobodies inheriting minds instead of memories; in that sense, Roxas would never have inherited Sora's memories, so long as Sora retained his own mind. Although I've been more in line with the idea of the birth of a new mind as a Nobody, instead, as you also are.

 

[Gram]

Not necessarily; Terra's and MX's conversation was metaphysical, so to speak, to which the minds of those characters could be distinctive from their counterparts in the real world. Case in point, Vanitas and Ventus-Vanitas. Neither of us can be certain, considering we still are talking about Apprentice Xehanort's property disputes and the ambiguous role of the mind.

Given the context of their conversation it's say to assume its within AX. The ambiguous properties of AX doesn't point to Terra not being there, if anything, all we've seen is evidence that he is.
You have the instances of Terra interfering with Terranorts battle with Aqua, their debate over the body ownership, the fact that the LS is Terra's lingering thoughts and the fact that Terra's memories were inherited by Xemnas.

It's just more pointing the other way of what your proposing. Your Ven-Vanitas example only further points to my case because both Ven & Van were within the body at that junction, mind and all.

The exact chemistry between the mind and memories would be...useful to know, I'm sure you can agree (although I do like your relation of the mind to identity). We know that "minds" are an existing plot device, but they're not as fleshed out as memories.

As for Roxas, there was an idea I had once upon a time about the possibility of Nobodies inheriting minds instead of memories; in that sense, Roxas would never have inherited Sora's memories, so long as Sora retained his own mind. Although I've been more in line with the idea of the birth of a new mind as a Nobody, instead, as you also are.

Meh I think we know enough personally. We know memories help form a heart and from there that the sense of identity born to that heart is the mind.
Xemnas said it himself that their experiments was to convince the mind to renounce its sense of self, heartless were born as a result, heartless are hearts consumed by darkness and having lost that sense of self, often described as "mindless".

It's hard to think otherwise with nobodies after seeing Roxas literally form his own identity, isn't it? xD