Why does everyone think days was such a bad game?

[Spyells]

I think many KH fans just complain too much. I loved Days and even though I'm playing BBS right now, I enjoy all the KH games equally. Days is still one of my favorites because of the darker storyline. Although BBS does outshine Days in graphics and in flashy game play, it to has some negatives. I feel that the visits to each world are too short, especially because BBS is a whole lot of fun to play. But that doesn't mean that BBS isn't a great game. I feel the same way about Days, it had its flaws but it was a great game for what it brought to the table, it certainly gave a great example of what the DS is capable of.

I didn't hate or love Xion, she was just a part of the greater story for me. I've also never been a Roxas hater or lover either, but I basically enjoy the series and its characters as a whole. I feel that Days is important in the KH time line because it does give us some insight on what daily life was like in the organization. It showed that just because Sora was out of the lime light for a year, the world didn't stop turning. The bad guys (the organization in this case) were still plotting and doing things to set things in motion for their own [selfish] goals while the keyblade master was out the way. (Whether their goals and how they went about accomplishing them were completely just is left for us, the players, to decide but it does give us a better idea of why they did what they did).

Sometimes the repetitiveness of the missions could become slightly annoying, but that is the point of the story as we are experiencing what life was like for Roxas while he was a member of the organization. I also think that because the first saga of KH is not complete yet, we really don't know how everything will come to a head in the end. Basically all the games are important in the grand storyline. KH is just one big story that is revealed to us in small installments. For me, I was just amazed that a KH game was even possible for the DS, considering that all of them have cut-scenes and I know that DS game cards don’t hold as much memory as PS2 disks. But somehow Square pulled that off. And although Days could have been better, I can certainly see how much work went into this game. The panels system was a great idea and I had a wonderful time playing with it setting up my deck.

Personally I don't feel it's that big of an issue whether or not Days was a good game. Although KH is my favorite video game series, at the end of the day it really is just a game. Video games are made for our enjoyment and if you don't like a game then don't play it. All good series will have hits and misses, and maybe for some people Days was a huge miss, but it wasn't an out right failure. I enjoy watching the cut-scenes on my DS and because the game is mission based, it does make for quick and easy play when killing time between classes.

Basically, those are my two cents. I love Days (more like I just love KH as a whole, lol) so that's just my opinion on it. I respect everyone else’s opinions and believe it or not I don't mind when I hear why people hate Days (and to some extent, Xion), I may have really enjoyed Days but even I could see that it had its flaws. (I hardly respond to these types of threads even though I really liked Days because these discussions can get really intense. Too much pressure! lol) ^_^

 

[Reika]

Nothing was even accomplished with the Chamber of Awakening in the game. It was just to reaffirm that Xemnas was looking for it, which we already knew by KH2:FM+.

Glad you pointed that out. I *thought* KH2:FM+ mentioned it, but I couldn't remember for sure. xD

What was expanded, exactly? We were outright and obviously told why the rift happened. Since we love Nomura interviews:



Xion? Xion who? Xion what?

It's not even an implication, actually. Nomura had it in mind before Xion's existence was ever thought of, which was after KH2 was done. And not even by him, but by some novel writer. Sometimes, people need to look at Nomura's old interviews, and see what his basic ideas were before it was ruined (or in my opinion, at least, was ruined):



Obviously, Riku had something to do with the reason why Roxas was heading towards TWTNW, not Xion. That was the original intention. You could see it in the Deep Dive and Another Side, Another Story trailers. I always thought that Riku was just a random person to Roxas (or someone he has met rarely), who he asked for aid of because he was being overrun and surrounded by Heartless (or else, he, first, wouldn't have jumped out of the way into a clearing if he wasn't in trouble, and second, wouldn't have looked around at the mess, glanced up, and decided to run up the skyscraper, all in the video). That is, until this interview. The two boys were more interconnected than previously thought.

THANK YOU for those. ;w; I'm glad you were able to post interviews.

I don't even know why Xion looking like Ven for a few seconds was a much bigger deal than Roxas looking exactly like him, 24/7, 100% of the time. It's practically Ventus walking with a different personality.

Good point. Wouldn't that have been a more interesting plot point/Easter egg; Xigbar making comments or remarks that ties Roxas to Ven?

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Glad you pointed that out. I *thought* KH2:FM+ mentioned it, but I couldn't remember for sure. xD

Yep. I remember that scene, because it was awesome - the whole Xemnas walking into the Room of Repose. The Chamber of Awakening was only mentioned like, in passing, really, never made a plot point, just that it's there. Xemnas barely even appeared in 358/2 Days and Roxas was too Xion obsessed to bother much with his connections. Despite that it would have been rather cool to watch him explore CO and discover things.

THANK YOU for those. ;w; I'm glad you were able to post interviews.

They're in the OP of the hate club, remember? Now I think I might log into that site (with a possible virus) in another computer where they have all the older Nomura interviews, see if there's anything else. More specifically, on another famous topic - the whole "no pairing is canon" spiel.

Good point. Wouldn't that have been a more interesting plot point/Easter egg; Xigbar making comments or remarks that ties Roxas to Ven?

He did, mostly. I just find it odd how people find Xion turning into Ventus any greater than Roxas being a physical walking ghost of him. And holding his fragmented Heart.

 

[Reika]

Yep. I remember that scene, because it was awesome - the whole Xemnas walking into the Room of Repose. The Chamber of Awakening was only mentioned like, in passing, really, never made a plot point, just that it's there. Xemnas barely even appeared in 358/2 Days and Roxas was too Xion obsessed to bother much with his connections. Despite that it would have been rather cool to watch him explore CO and discover things.

I never saw KH2FM+, to be honest. xD; I've only read about it, and what scenes were added.
I really wish we could have explored CO as Roxas. Him possibly sneaking in to learn of his origins, coming across Neoshadows and other Heartless from CoM, maybe checking computers and finding secret reports from other Org members, and then fainting when he nears Ven's room.
*sigh* What could've been...

They're in the OP of the hate club, remember? Now I think I might log into that site (with a possible virus) in another computer where they have all the older Nomura interviews, see if there's anything else. More specifically, on another famous topic - the whole "no pairing is canon" spiel.

OH YEAH. I forgot about that completely. x:
Someone should go to that site and bring the older interviews to KHInsider, so we can, you know, ACCESS them.

He did, mostly. I just find it odd how people find Xion turning into Ventus any greater than Roxas being a physical walking ghost of him. And holding his fragmented Heart.

Yeah, I know. :/ I think it's because people are more used to Roxas and his looks, and Xion taking Ven's form for Xigbar was something "new".
Not like the Xion incident holds much plot importance, really. Like I said earlier, it was more of an Easter egg/BBS hint than anything else. Roxas' looks being that of Ven's holds much more relevance.

 

[sora364]

A lot of things go unexplained. We don't need an explanation for everything.

Yes, I know. I never really said we did.

And was Zexion even eliminated in the same manner in the GBA version of CoM?

Not as graphic (or visual), but generally yes. It left more to the imagination. The Riku Replica began to slowly walk up to Zexion, while Zexion begged for mercy. The screen blackened. End.
Re:COM merely demonstrates exactly how he dies. At the same time, it should also be noted they altered Lexaeus’ death in conjunction with that.

Forgive me, I cannot stave off the feeling that you are grasping for straws. You have explicitly stated that:

“We didn't need Days for that; it was obvious they were there to get Sora, and that going to CO was all part of the plan of capturing Sora. In fact, I'm pretty sure there were heavy implications, if not outright statements, of this in CoM itself. I'm sure most of us knew it without he need of Days.”

Whether or not any inferences to Axel’s main objective or any purposes of Castle Oblivion were made clear in the pre-established canon (Chain of Memories), is inconsequential. You yourself made it clear we did not necessitate knowledge of any additional details of their presence. Still, you needed Days in order to learn this. It seems like you are trying to dance around your words by saying:

And that detail was brought up ONLY in Days. In every other game, there wasn't even a notion that the traitors were sent to CO specifically for that reason, just that Axel was sent there to specifically be rid of them.
Again, the Chamber of Waking and Axel's purpose with it was a detail only mentioned in Days. It was added on, something that was never even implied in earlier games.”

Well…that’s obvious and my entire point. You are contradicting yourself. This entire time you have been flaunting Days’ irrelevance (thus this knowledge of Axel, ect) yet now you are pulling a complete 360 and saying 358/2 Days was needed to get the full gist of the events which transpired in Castle Oblivion. I am not certain whether or not you thought that entire first post out (not needing to know the true purposes of Castle Oblivion) , but the fact Days expanded that to the story changes everything. You just inadvertently admitted that.

Ah, but your original point was that Days is relevant to the KH plotline as a whole. Adding more dimension does not make it necessary or relevant. So you just contradicted yourself. Thus, you just agreed with MY point; that Days ISN'T relevant to the KH series and could easily be skipped without a problem.

And that still is “my point.” I never contradicted myself. You are reading too deeply into what I said, thus misconstruing my terminology. Obviously, a need is something we must know, otherwise it would not make sense. We did not “need” to know additional details regarding the rift between Roxas and Axel, thus why we can transition from Kingdom Hearts II with zero problems. I have already acknowledged that several times. When I say “need” I mean not only that the events expand the story/ build the universe. They bestow additional information to elements that already existed, yet unexplained. A plot hole. (I.E. Zexion's death for example) Previously, it did not make sense why Axel had the Riku replica destroy Zexion. We may have had our theories, yet none of them were confirmed. 358/2 Days expanded the story and clarified the murky reasoning behind why Axel executed him. Thus, it is relevant and necessary to the plot. You can stand by your aforementioned assertion all you like, but this “added dimension” made unexplained events in Chain of Memories more cohesive. Period.

We saw enough of his personality at the beginning. We even saw a bit from behind the scenes, between Axel and Saix. He didn't seem to be even close to the dick he was in CoM. And what about Axel calming down immediately after his job was finished. After returning, he hadn't spent enough time with Roxas for their friendship to calm him down, because he was calm and relaxed again right away!

You may have, yet I personally didn’t. Taking into account I never believed Axel was that volatile to begin with (to the point I would think he “calmed down” while speaking with Saix.) In fact, Axel has always been shown to act differently with Saix as opposed to everyone else (with the exclusion of Roxas and Xion) so I would also bring that up as a factor.As I said before, Axel’s personality change is subjective, depending on your outlook. Nothing more needs to be said on that topic.

Yet, the mission goal right away was to meet Riku.

…? As far as Nomura and the directors were concerned…yes. But to the actual plot, I’m not quite sure.That never crossed my mind.

In the Deep Dive video at the end of KH1, Roxas' first question was, "Where is Sora?", as if he went there especially just to find out Sora's whereabouts.

That was merely an early concept. Roxas never said this once in the true scenario. It is no different than the Kingdom Key, Kingdom Key-D, and Way to Dawn, were in the Gathering. They were MIA in Birth By Sleep. It was a concept. Yes, Roxas later expressed these feelings, but I do not recall him verbally making that statement outside of the end of the prologue of Kingdom Hearts II (and we are discussing 358/2 Days) If he did say this, please correct me.

However, unlike the implication I was trying to explain above, the truth of how Roxas duel wielded had already been created at the time of Xion's death, making our implications instantly wrong, only due to lack of information.
With the Deep Dive implications, Roxas' goal to destroy Xemnas and free Kingdom Hearts as per Xion's last wish was not even thought of at that time, because Days was not even thought of.

This is the final time I will belabor this assertion: it added more dimension, and was thus relevant to the plot as it was canon. And let me tell you why. It was not a ret-con. It was not written in stone. We did not know the entire story behind it. We thought we did, yet evidently, we did not. Adding material that we did not know beforehand, can radically change everything to what we prior knew. Birth By Sleep is a flawless example. We did not need to know anything, (for example, Xehanort’s origins) The Secret Ansem Reports made it clear that he was found barely alive with no memory other than his name. I was content with that. And yet, I can no longer look at Xehanort/Xemnas/AnsemSOD the same way because BBS expanded his story. I was perfectly fine without it, but now that I know, I see the series’ antagonist in a completely different light. So you saying “adding more dimension does not make something necessary nor relevant” is an outright fallacious statement. While 358/2 Days may be a side story and Birth By Sleep was part of the mainstream story: they share one thing. Both were created after Kingdom Hearts II and everything in which preceded it. While BBS had a significantly greater impact, Days in retrospect was in essence exactly the same.
That argument, while convincing at a glance, is nothing short of cleverly devised sophistry. I’m sorry, but its validity can be easily dispelled because of the numerous holes in it. If something was ret-conned, then yes I agree with you 100%. But all those games did was yield more insight on the events which we thought we knew the whole story, but we didn’t. Thus expanding and revealing more (and possibly affecting unreleased games in the franchise) regardless of how much anyone feels how “necessary” or “unnecessary” they were. Nothing was actually changed.
I see where you are deriving your point, but at the end of the day…it just doesn’t hold up very well. …Sorry.

That was not in the game. If it was, please point it out to me.

No, it was not. And I never recall saying it was. I only said “he awakened to it due to Xion’s death” (which in turn, means forgetting her, right?) I never once specified how.

So Days would not have been necessary in revealing this, because it wasn't even the original canon reveal.

OMG! It wasn’t the original canon!? You know this for a fact? Then you can only be one person:

Alright then, Mr. Nomura *clears throat* Please tell me in luridly composed detail precisely what this “original canon” was. I mean…you are Nomura, right? *sarcasm*
...All jokes aside, unlike you, I always questioned why Roxas gave the Oblivion to Riku…only to fight him moments later. It never made sense. 358/2 Days once again shed light on the “original canon” as it made little sense. My jaw dropped when I first watched the scene and I was like: “OH! That’s why he did it!” All before I thought Roxas had mental problems.

And like before, your original point was that Days is relevant to the main series. You've just said again that Days was not necessary or needed. Thus, it is not relevant.

It was relevant. Once more, I never contradicted myself. It may have not been absolutely needed, but it was still cohesive with the plot-and was one of the few things that carried over in Kingdom Hearts II. Thus, it is relevant, no matter how “minor” or “obvious” it may have been. You want an example of something that truly is irrelevant? This.
It may be unimportant in your eyes, to others who actually enjoy watching the series grow and don't carp about how "insignificant" some things are, we see it a bit differently.I have clearly established how expanding the story is relevant in my first argument with Zexion’s death among many other events. Let’s try not go there anymore.

I'll give you that, that Nomura may have had an idea that they had met in person before. However, ideas =/= canon.

Agreed. But remember, I said it was some random guy’s theory that I agreed with. I never said it was canon, just highly plausible.

He had an idea that Sora would be part monkey and carry a chainsaw, but that wasn't canon either.

Just to clarify, I never meant that Nomura’s would be idea was canon. But I was directing that comment to you noting “It happened before Days was even thought of” which you would not know, as you are not Nomura. So that statement was extraneous to your point.

And it was never confirmed until he decided to make Days

…I never said it was…

which happened AFTER the completion of KH2.

*sighs* …This again…? I know I said I wasn’t going to go here again…but what the hell. Instead of making a new response, I’ll just reuse my earlier one:

Using that logic, knowing that Castle Oblivion was created [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]by Aqua/was originally the Land of Departure[/FONT][/COLOR] is also pointless. I mean...clearly it wasn't "thought of" during Chain of Memories' development. I mean...it didn't change anything aside from the fact that [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Ven is sleeping inside.[/FONT][/COLOR] Right? :tongue:

…You already know my stand on this.

Ah…TwilightNight. Fancy seeing you again I only skimmed through your post, as I already addressed most of the things you said in my response to Reika. So I’m only going go over the *newer* things.


About Zexion: LMAO. You’re right, it wasn’t that important. Yet at the same time, an unexplained element that needed more elaboration to actually make sense. You have to admit at least that much.

About Axel: *sighs*…That was never my point. My standpoint is that if it happens, no matter the time frame the game was created, it affects the story. Reika said she “already knew” the story, when clearly she did not. None of us did. No matter how “minor” these elements may have been to you, they gave more perspective to COM’s plot, there is literally no denying that.

What triggered the Separation Between Roxas and Axel: I’ve already stated how “iffy” I am on Nomura interviews in an earlier post. 358/2 Days tells a totally different story. The same as “Nobodies not aging” “Donald and Goofy forgetting Yen Sid’s castle because it looked different” (when in fact it looked the same. Nomura said the comment was made because the inside was differently decorated, when Donald and Goofy never step foot inside TO see these “decorations”) The list goes on. Nomura contradicts himself repeatedly. That explanation you gave would have stood up perfectly…had Days not existed. But technically it still could be true, seeing as though Xion is erased from everyone’s memories. I myself was wondering how the hell Xion “help caused the rift” when she was forgotten in the first place. That much, I will not deny. Thanks for pulling that interview up and giving me yet another reason never to trust Nomura interviews…>_> Still, he’s got nothing on Hideo Kojima: the god of Retcons.

You get the impression that Riku summoned Roxas to a place of shadows

, and that Riku is a master of shadows, so I would like to give him more exploration in the game.

That sounds more like a figurative context than a literal explanation. I never got this impression Nomura spoke of. “Riku is a master of shadows” reeks of metaphor. Given Days’ story, we know Riku didn’t do “jack ****” (Thanks, Reika XD) to bring on that fight. He was just there. I’ll admit, in ASAS/Deep Dive, the meeting did look pre-determined. Alas, Days confirmed that was not the case. And I’ll be honest, I nearly addressed this in my response to Reika, but I stopped myself due to Kingdom Hearts II making it clear that was not the case. I did take that as a request for help when I first watched ASAS/Deep Dive. It was the only viable reason he would toss his Keyblade to Riku. Hell, for the first 46 seconds of this video, I would have honestly believed that.

YouTube - Full Riku VS. Roxas Fight

But once 0:47 on up kicked in, things ceased to make sense for me. From that point on, I questioned why Roxas would do such a thing…if he was only going to fight him almost immediately after. You can arouse the argument that “he couldn’t handle them alone”, but I seriously doubt that. He was decimating the Neo-Shadows the entire time. Xion’s role in that, was one “WTF” solved for me.


…And I’m finally done with this ridiculously long post.

EDIT: THANK YOU, Spyells! I agree with you 100%

 

[Goldpanner]

Before Days, I thought Roxas was an angsty prick (judging by the flashbacks in KHII) who was inducted into the Organization for no real purpose. Sure, one would have surmised because "He could wield the Keyblade" yet KH2 itself seldom makes such inferences.

Org making fake Kingdom Hearts + trying to get Roxas back + when he is gone, spending the rest of KH2 using Sora to collect hearts for them

I wonder what purpose they could have had, inducting Roxas........?!

And as for Roxas himself. When he's found by Xemnas in the FM+ scene, he is asked, 'do you wish for meaning?' and then when he leaves the Organisation, he says he needs to find out why the Keyblade chose him. You don't think that needing a meaning for his existence and the chance to find out answers about himself wouldn't be incentive enough to join the Organisation......?

Still, I felt it suited his story perfectly.

Yeah, I definitely had the opposite experience. I also wondered who the 'real' Roxas was, and I decided that there was enough evidence (from the things you mentioned, as well as DiZ saying in KH2 that Namine gave Roxas a 'new personality') to say that he was a bitchy little kid. And you know what? I would have much rather the story of a bitchy little punk who was on a quest for answers than what we got. I thought it was the most boring piece of crap ever, seriously.

You say it suited the story perfectly, but the truth is, it's all self-contained in Days, so that's not hard at all. They could do anything they wanted and wipe it at the end.

I won't lie, ordinarily I would totally agree with you. But in essence, just encapsulated the entire prologue of Kingdom Hearts II. I always got the vibe this basically would have happened in Days had Xion not existed...but it would just be a more elaborate regurgitation of a plot we've already seen.

Look a little closer. That WAS what happened in Days WITH Xion there; I just summarised Xion's plot. And yes, it was a regurgitation of a plot we've already seen. It's Roxas' KH2 plot + Namine's acceptance of her fate + Repliku's battle with the Original thrown in at the end.

My point is, why do you think they could not have written a better plot?

...I'm not sure how to phrase this, but in all due honesty...Xion was a plot device to foreshadow Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep.

What, because she looked like Ven for five seconds? We already knew from KH2 that Xigbar met TAV anyway.

(I personally felt it was split evenly) I'm still not sure why people thought Roxas' fell to the wayside in this story, he was equally as important as Xion

Roxas falls to the wayside when you look at the plot of Days in a nutshell.

Plot arc 1: finding out what Nobodies, Heartless and Keyblades are
Plot arc 2: Axel goes to CO, missing him, meeting Xion
Plot arc 3: Xion goes missing, looking for Xion, helping Xion with her Keyblade
Plot arc 4: Xion fights Riku and loses, Xion is depressed, Roxas worries about Xion
Plot arc 5: Xion goes into a coma, Roxas worries about Xion, Xion's health is shaky and she faints again soon after waking
Plot arc 6: Xion runs away to find out who she is, Roxas worries a lot, Roxas and Axel defy orders to look for her, Xion is saved by Riku and runs around with Riku
Plot arc 7: Axel knocks Xion out to bring her home causing Roxas and Axel to fight, Xion helps them resolve it
Plot arc 8: Xion keeps stealing Roxas' power, her guilt, his confusion
Plot arc 9: Org pits the two against eachother to fight to the death but axel interferes. this plot could have been epic, but it lasts one day
and is resolved on the clock tower that afternoon
Plot arc 10: Xion runs away again, to sacrifice herself, Roxas is angry with Axel for letting her go, Axel is torn, the truth comes out and Roxas is even angrier
Plot arc 11: Roxas runs away from the Org, Axel stops Xion and brings her back, Xion sacrifices herself by forcing Roxas to kill her
Plot arc 12: Roxas sets off to avenge Xion and free Kingdom Hearts like she asked, loses to Riku.

As you can see, most of the plot arcs revolve around Xion. And even when Roxas is a part of them, his main role in the arcs is to stand around doing nothing worrying about her, or looking for her and not actually driving any plot forwards.

For being the character you play as, he really doesn't drive much of the plot at all, and that's where you see it's not split evenly at all.

Literally zero character development, tons of worthless characters that contributed nothing to the plot, pointless "antagonists" you covered once every blue moon. Not to mention the tons of unexplored potential for characters like Roxas, Namine, and Axel. Characters I was really looking foward to learning more about. I mean, RIKU was reduced to a side character that appeared extremely late in the game. Seriously, WTF? That game is just...bad in terms of story. It's a complete mess. It had a great premise, but the execution of the ideas was erratic and sloppily deployed. It totally spat on everything COM had previously established.

But..... this sums up Days perfectly.

Except replace 'Roxas, Namine and Axel' for 'Organisation XIII'.

...You know what. I'm not even going to try.

Just so long as you remember that Kanemaki conceptualised and wrote Xion and her plot, and she had the first vague idea about her OC when she was writing Riku's CoM novel--which was after KH2 already came out. I have that CoM novel, too.

Nice one, but no. Pete? Never crossed my mind;he's not even important. Diz and Riku fall under "anti-hero" in this game's plot. And...I don't recall seeing Diz that much in this game. As for the last two: you don't have to physically do anything to be an antagonist if that's what you were implying.

Pointless antagonists, amirite?

The fact is, they were the antagonists, and there's no denying that. They may have been underplayed at the start, but as the story escalated they became worse, even if you did not realize it.

You're making it sound a lot more epic than it was. In the end all it came down to was Saix saying mean things, and Xemnas letting Xion run around doing whatever she wanted because it was 'the will of Kingdom Hearts' or some crap. The idea of it is good, and when you say it like that it sounds better, but they didn't execute it properly.

At the beginning of the game, Roxas is a monotone that can barely speak. He is ignorant of the world. He starts off knowing absolutely nothing about anything. He befriends Axel, and slowly begins to learn more about himself and his own existence.

He does begin a zombie, but after Axel comes back from CoM right at the start of the game, Roxas is not a zombie anymore, and he pretty much hits a flatline in actual development. It isn't until he gets angry with Axel for the very first time, ages and ages later, that he gets another blip of development--learning not to trust Axel blindly, but it isn't enough to make him do anything--then he flatlines again until he learns everyone lied to him all along, then he gets a sharp incline of development in which he grows a spine and actually starts driving the plot. And then two days later the game is over.

Though, I will say it may have been a departure of what we thought could have been Roxas. Alas, I digress.

I realise that this isn't a big deal to everyone, so I don't usually use it when I'm arguing that Days was a bad game, but it definitely made it worse for me personally.

So yeah, I'm definitely with you on that. Still, she's pretty much a gameplay carbon copy of Roxas, so I doubt it would have felt refreshing at all.

Exactly. It would have been like, jeez, why didn't they just make Roxas drive some kind of plot for himself? We don't need two.

Though I still don't feel I "watched from the side" though.

Okay, tell me what the character you played and controlled, which is pretty much your avatar in this world, made happen in the plot. What was the plot that 'you' helped unfold?

She was the only thing of any "relevance" that I was unaware of to Roxas' days in the organization.

As you learned, Xion and her story was not thought of during KH2, and was not thought of by Nomura. So, it's not that you were 'unaware', really. That word makes me think that it was an old secret to be unveiled, not what it really was.

And also, are you saying that my opinion is less valued because my expectations were different from yours?

No, I'm saying your opinion seems silly to me when it's based around you expecting from the beginning that a character like Xion was necessary at all.

When I say “need” I mean not only that the events expand the story/ build the universe. They bestow additional information to elements that already existed, yet unexplained. A plot hole. (I.E. Zexion's death for example) Previously, it did not make sense why Axel had the Riku replica destroy Zexion. We may have had our theories, yet none of them were confirmed.

If you can draw reasonable and satisfying conclusions, then it's not necessarily a plot hole. It could just be a 'I expected the audience to understand this...' situation. My understanding from CoM was that Axel was doing shady things, helping Namine and Sora, and he didn't want a single other person to survive Castle Oblivion long enough to tell the others back at the base what he had done.

The fact that Days gave a canon explanation to it doesn't mean it was an actual hole in the first place, and since the explanation in Days is entirely confined to that one game, it doesn't really make much difference in the long term anyway.

it added more dimension, and was thus relevant to the plot as it was canon.

All this means is that you and Reika have a different opinion of what makes something not 'worthless'. In my opinion, series was doing just fine KH1-->CoM-->KH2 without the 'extra dimension' that Days brought. That is why I think the game is not very important.

So for you to write a list of points that Days gives 'extra dimension' on, doesn't mean much. That's all they were, 'extra dimension' that was exclusively contained in that one game.

While BBS had a significantly greater impact, Days in retrospect was in essence exactly the same.

Actually, it wasn't. Nomura had BBS in mind while making KH2; that is why in KH2FM+ there are scenes that hint towards it, that's why in interviews from that era you can see where he says 'I'm not allowed to answer that yet, but it is in relation to the story of Xehanort's memories'. He's said that when he finished work on KH2FM+ the first thing he did was sit down and write BBS properly, and it was the first game for which he'd written the plot based on the story he wanted to tell right off the bat, rather than a plot he worked out after deciding on the gameplay he wanted to incorporate.

Days, on the other hand, wasn't even going to be made until Nintendo approached him. Then, Ms Kanemaki the KH novel writer was asked to write the scenario; she was the one who wrote Xion and her plot. Nomura took Kanemaki (and Ishida's) scenario, took two weeks to make a script from it, and Days was born.

They are not the same at all. If they were, we'd have hints towards Xion in KH2FM+, for one.

we thought we knew the whole story, but we didn’t. Thus expanding and revealing more (and possibly affecting unreleased games in the franchise) regardless of how much anyone feels how “necessary” or “unnecessary” they were. Nothing was actually changed.

Nothing was changed, because everyone simply got amnesia at the end of the game! Imagine if there wasn't that giant universe reset button at the end of Days. A LOT would have changed. So I wonder why they did it like that........

 

[sora364]

Sorry goldpanner, I wish you responded eariler. But I am officially through with this topic.

EDIT: ...Why did you just do all of that in spite of what I just said? Those were each responses to Reika.
If all any of you assert is: “It still was unnecessary” (after I just spent an entire page delineating why most those things were relevant, not how necessary.) or “We did not need to know that”, etc, it is transparent I am squandering my time discussing this with you. It’s is as if I’m posting responses for nothing. If an idea is introduced, yet never fully explained: it is a plot hole. Plain and simple. A "satisfying conclusion" is subjective. Speculation =/=Canon. If you are content with that, then that's great. But I personally only accept canonical explanations.

If it is new information that builds the story, it is “now” (keyword: now) relevant to the story. Was it needed in the past? You can debate that all you like amongst yourselves, I'm through with it. Truth is, it’s here now, it’s canon, and it’s here to stay until otherwise.

It may not have been needed know “the full” reasons for that particular story (I.E the Riku/Roxas/ keyblade passing in KHII.) I questioned it, yet none of you did. See the difference? One party is content, while the other is
dissatisfied. Still, my opinion, is: if Nomura felt like "If ain't broke don't fix it" he would not have bothered to begin with. But it's all opinion. You were satisfied (or didn't give it a second thought) why he did, I on the other hand was not.

The same applies for Axel’s actions in COM. For the full story of Chain of Memories, you did not need to know about Axel & the Chamber of Waking to actually understand it (Aside from Zexion's fate. That was always unexplained.) But when brought to light, in 358/2 Days influences COM's story, and helps us understand MORE. We can now replay both Chain of Memories and Kingdom Hearts II, and know that there is something more to the story than what's presented in front of us. Honestly, can any of you replay COM and not think about Ven is somewhere deep within the walls slumbering, and you while there, have no way of reaching him? That's my entire point. More about the core story, not just Chain Of Memories' story. It is exactly like Spyells said.

Basically all the games are important in the grand storyline. KH is just one big story that is revealed to us in small installments.

OMG! THIS! So true! I'm glad she could encapsulate in one sentence, everything I have been trying to say this entire time (3-4 essay like post) Terse, but powerful.

They all merge in with the main KINGDOM HEARTS story. They are relevant because of this fact. To the individual stories themselves, perhaps not (once again, I'm not getting into this again) but to the main story, absolutely. If you all cannot comprehend that (and in short, all I was trying to say) there is nothing left for me to say. And for the love of god...please don't say I "contradicted myself" again, because I didn't.


@goldpanner: As I'm through debating about this (I've established my point, I stand to it.) I can think of countless counter arguments for everything you raised agaisnt me. Especially your response to "While BBS had a significantly greater impact, Days in retrospect was in essence exactly the same." It's tempting to just bicker back..but in the long run...it's just not worth it. Obviously, I am in the minority here, and I am growing tired with these numerous "criticisms" with why I said Days was relevant. After all, you all keep saying the same thing, right? And I am done with repeating myself saying why it's relevant 9000 times. You never say WHY IT ISN'T relevant just: "I think is not imporant because..." I never said they everything I listed was a ground breaking plot development. Being "relevant" and OMGWTFBBQ important are two different things.

It's fairly clear it you are all determined to drag this thing out to the bitter end XD. But I'm bored to tears repeating myself, so I'm nipping this in the bud right now. Let's be honest, I'm outnumbered here. And I don't have time to respond to each and everyone one of you. ...I really have nothing more anything more to add. Still, somebody's bound to end up responding to this with an equally long essay, but sadly I will not do the same. There's always that one person who wants to get the last word, even after I've said that.
peteumad

I gave my two cents. My point as made. I'm through. Anything further is just not needed.

I believe the points were relevant based on the information I provided. You all disagree. End.

…This was fun at the start...now it's just ludicrous. I mean..all I'm accomplishing is stressing a point about a video game's story, making responses that take 45 minutes to type up. *yawns*...Not like I'm getting an award for defending Days or anything, right? haha. Just look at this thread on another forum. Only on that thread, there are more people who agree with everything I'm saying (and it's the exact opposite here.) See how those darn opinions work? My point is...it's apparently a never ending discussion. With that said, I'm done.

Well, let's all just agree to disagree and call it quits? Love you guys, I'm out.

*leaves topic for good*

 

[zc1995]

For me its because of the graphic.I played it for a while,but i was bored after that :/

 

[Reika]

To avoid another essay-long debate, which you (sora364) said last night (before you changed it; I saw what you did there ) was pretty much just wasting our time, I'll put my point in a simple format; someone could play every KH game EXCEPT for Days, and still be able to understand it. This makes it an irrelevant and unnecessary game, because, unlike games such as KH1 and CoM, one does not need to play to understand and grasp the main story.
THAT is the point I've been trying to make.

 

[zaqareemalcolm]

I have to agree; whilst I enjoyed the plot and the text dialogue, it is almost completely about character development. Xion is erased from existence due to her own nature, and as such has no direct effect on any other game in the series' events. One could quite easily skip over this game and still be able to mostly comprehend the overall plot of the series so far.

"Why the hell did Roxas go back to the World That Never Was after he left?"
"Why the hell Namine took a year just to restore his memories?"

No direct effect my foot.

 

[Key of Valor]

"Why the hell did Roxas go back to the World That Never Was after he left?"
"Why the hell Namine took a year just to restore his memories?"

No direct effect my foot.

The audience though didn't even have those questions prior to the release of KH'Days.

I think it was generally believed that Roxas either A) encountered Riku the same night he left the Organization, or B) Riku somehow lured Roxas to Memory Skyscraper... or C) both.

As for the year long process of restoring Sora's memories, Namine said in CoM that fixing Sora's memories would take some time (even though at the time I personally didn't think it would take almost a year). Namine doesn't specifically state how long it would take though, so period of almost a year was always an possibility. Ansem the Wise also says in his reports that it was taking Namine some time to restore a lifetime of memories in Sora's heart (the way it was stated implied the large quantity of memories is what was holding the process up).

Ultimately, the generally assumed answers for both the questions you posed turned out to be incorrect once KH'Days was released. However, since the audience already were capable of drawing their own conclusions on these topics, the explanations in KH'Days weren't necessary even if they did vary from the beliefs of the audience. It's not like the varying explanations in KH'Days effected anything outside of the game anyways. All it did was officially establish what was and wasn't canon in the series, and such revelations so far have had little effect on the development of the story in the series.

I personally think KH'Days, as it stands now, is a relatively unnecessary title that largely has its story contained within the game, and therefore having little effect on the entirety of the series. However, to be fair, the development of the series isn't over yet, so it's possible that the events, elements, and information featured exclusively in KH'Days will yield an important effect on the series as a whole in the future... but I personally don't see this being the case anytime soon.

 

[Epif]

"Why the hell did Roxas go back to the World That Never Was after he left?"

The characters never thought twice about it, so it can be assumed that it has nothing to do with Xion (because they would have forgotten all about it), and Days doesn't give us any explanation other than "Xion did it". In other words, Days' events are, for the most part, made irrelevant to the characters...

"Why the hell Namine took a year just to restore his memories?"

I can think of a reason that has nothing to do with Days in the slightest: Because fixing Sora's memories is a long, complicated, and demanding process.

Without Days, we have the understanding that the memories were so messed up by the end of CoM that Namine had a very difficult task to fix Sora's memories.

With Days, we are told something much more complicated and ridiculous: "The Replica Program had a replica before Repliku, and that replica stole Sora's memories through Sora's Nobody, and those memories kept Sora asleep. Not only that, but it made Namine's job even more difficult for her."

 

[Reika]

"Why the hell did Roxas go back to the World That Never Was after he left?"

He met Riku to learn about Sora, knowing Sora is somehow connected to his origins, something the Organization and Axel kept from him.

"Why the hell Namine took a year just to restore his memories?"

Sora's memories were flowing into Roxas. That's why Roxas was having dreams of Sora and Sora's life; he had Sora's memories contained within him. Namine couldn't wake Sora up until Roxas returned the stolen memories.

No direct effect my foot.

Too bad your two questions were already answered in interviews BEFORE Days came out.

 

[zaqareemalcolm]

Sora's memories were flowing into Roxas. That's why Roxas was having dreams of Sora and Sora's life; he had Sora's memories contained within him. Namine couldn't wake Sora up until Roxas returned the stolen memories.

No, no. You don't get my question. Why did it take a YEAR?
In Days, Namine had said that the memory restoration process should take a few months. And even if Roxas was halting the process, why did it take a YEAR? At most he should halt the process for like about, a month more or so.

 

[Wisdom Form]

I hated this game cos' it took a while to come out, I also hated the panels configuration system. I would just hope that a game with the original levelling and ability system would appear for the DS.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

No, no. You don't get my question. Why did it take a YEAR?
In Days, Namine had said that the memory restoration process should take a few months. And even if Roxas was halting the process, why did it take a YEAR? At most he should halt the process for like about, a month more or so.

You could say the same thing for Xion.

Actually, why should its process take longer than Roxas'? Can you make that clear to me for a second? Thing should have been gone the moment the game started. There's no difference. The dripping memories of Sora went to Roxas; Xion simply robbed them from him.

The length it took canonly now was because both Diz and Riku didn't do jack throughout the game to wake Sora early. Couldn't they at least attempt to once in a while? Can Riku stop brushing the clone's bangs in one of its usual "woe is me" sprees because apparently a piece of Sora has more value than that of the real Sora who's stuck in a coma and will never wake up otherwise? I can get the pity, but leave the choice of his best friend's fate to someone he only met twice, made a bad first impression by owning it hard, and was verified by Naminé just how important it was to get the memories back? And this is acceptable as making sense? Worse of all, Xion's running around with the enemy, and Xemnas finds it alright because it's the "will of Kingdom Hearts".

This enemy factor brings me to Diz:

"We got to stop this immediately"
*200 days later*
"The gloves are off!"
*100 days later*
"Okay, Riku and I will stop this so Xion can conveniently make it the whole year, as it's finally the end of the game and it decided to die; now I can return to my real self and go back in character."

Since when does Diz wait for a puppet who's life he sees meaningless? Did his prejudice against inhuman existences take a backseat?

Seems all very stale; it's like they threw the story together in a big mess of half-assedness and excuses so they could direct it to how they wanted it to go. Not that anybody told them to insert a nonexistent character in between two, established games that had their tales weaved and written without it.

I mean, before 358/2 Days was made, I always thought that the Organization constabtly got in the way of any ploys to take Roxas away from them. It will explain why Diz took measures to kidnap him at his most vulnerable when he defected, and store him in some fake world so the members wouldn't interfere (said so in KH2, but Axel managed to break in anyway). It would be cool to have seen Riku/Diz and everyone else clashing; heck, have Roxas be torn in the middle of it to the point where he realized the truth, threw the F bomb, and left. Ties it all neatly, doesn't it? And yet, that's what we didn't get.

Instead, we got the contrived and insensible events above.

 

[8298906]

No, no. You don't get my question. Why did it take a YEAR?
In Days, Namine had said that the memory restoration process should take a few months. And even if Roxas was halting the process, why did it take a YEAR? At most he should halt the process for like about, a month more or so.

Key word: IN DAYS. They're giving you information as to why it took a year before Days came out. Namine said it would take a wile to put back Sora's memories but Roxas derailed it. Any information from Days that contradicts this is nothing but Recon.

 

[heartlessgrl2]

I think it was because we all could of gone on living without hearing roxases side and i also think its because all those namine+roxas fans are mad that roxas should be with xion but namine made him forget

 

[αsiя]

I think it was because we all could of gone on living without hearing roxases side and i also think its because all those namine+roxas fans are mad that roxas should be with xion but namine made him forget

It actually has nothing to do with that. Hearing Roxas's side was sorta unnecessary but could of been pulled off well, but it wasn't.

Also, let's not bring those type of fans into this.

 

[flurryflames]

Whether it is a bad or good game depends on how you look at the plot or what you expected in it. It could of been better without the too much of Xion crap, but at least we can play as any of the characters. Most games don't give you that privilege.