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Death Penalty?



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Hidden

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I personally find it fascinating that some responses on this thread have condemned the death penalty for going too far in the justice system, while others have condemned it for not going far enough. What this thread has figured out more quickly than previous discussions on the topic is that it is necessary to first get down to what the purpose of the death penalty, and of the justice system, really is--whether it is punishment, self-preservation, abstract justice or something else. Former justice on the U.S. Supreme Court, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr, has a provocative and potentially damning take on the question.

Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr said:
The first requirement of a sound body of law is, that it should correspond with the actual feelings and commands of the community, whether right or wrong. If people would gratify the passion of revenge outside of the law, if the law did not help them, the law has no choice but to satisfy the craving itself, and thus avoid the greater evil of private retribution.
Is the death penalty then simply a concession to society's desire for vengeance, regardless of a moral right or wrong to it?

krexia said:
But I also believe that the whole idea is categorically wrong. I don't believe in vengeance.
A fascinating essay by George Orwell: Revenge is Sour. It also applies to the above argument, I would think.
 

krexia

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Thanks Hidden, that's a fantastic essay :)

I've often gotten into the vengeance-or-not argument with friends, who will inevitably bring up the whole, "If your family was murdered, you'd want to kill their killer!" line. And when I say I wouldn't, the response is either, "You would if it actually happened," or, "How can you be so cold-hearted?"

And okay, fair enough, I can't know in advance what I would do in such a situation if (god forbid) it actually happened. But there are people who've lost families and loved ones and campaigned against sentencing the criminals involved to death. Families of victims of the 2002 terrorist attacks in Bali, for example:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5114539.ece said:
Susanna Miller, 40, a London-based architect, lost her brother Dan, aged 31.

“The death penalty is an 18th-century punishment. My brother was a lawyer, he would have disapproved. Also, these men were low-level terrorists, the bigger ones are at large. They should have been given life sentences,” Miller said.

Maggie Stephens, 57, whose son Neil Bowler, 27, was killed, agreed. “By executing them we are doing to them what they did to us,” she said.
I'd like to think that if I ever lost someone important I'd have the strength to look past my immediate emotional pain and stand by my convictions.
 
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Thanks Hidden, that's a fantastic essay :)

I've often gotten into the vengeance-or-not argument with friends, who will inevitably bring up the whole, "If your family was murdered, you'd want to kill their killer!" line. And when I say I wouldn't, the response is either, "You would if it actually happened," or, "How can you be so cold-hearted?"

When I get into those kinds of arguments, I say, "You're right, I probably would want the killer dead." It's entirely different when the problem is personal. Emotion can be a fundamentally irrational thing. My mind may reason that it is wrong to take vengeance, but that doesn't make me desire to do so any less. There's a discord in how I feel and how I think in such a case.

I don't profess to be as altruistic as those victims described in the article, but I believe I can, on some level, distinguish between what I "know" is "right" and what feels good. The problem arises when the law must decide between appealing to one or the other to ideally create the best result.

The first requirement of a sound body of law is, that it should correspond with the actual feelings and commands of the community, whether right or wrong. If people would gratify the passion of revenge outside of the law, if the law did not help them, the law has no choice but to satisfy the craving itself, and thus avoid the greater evil of private retribution.

You know, as much as I am against the death penalty, this quote actually makes me think.
A delegate normally ought to vote as a reflection of his/her constituents wishes, and so too should a law usually reflect the wishes of its society/culture.
In other words, if, hypothetically, gay marriage was universally opposed in the United States, I sometimes wonder whether or not the "best" (if not the right) thing to do would to keep gay marriage as being illegal. In spite of the fact that I think gay marriage should be legal, based on a more universal ethical principle, that lofty thinking really means nothing when it comes to the policy in practice. Rather, perhaps I should first be campaigning to change the minds of the constituents, not the delegates, so that the delegates may always represent us faithfully.

But that begs the question of where to draw the line. Gay marriage is one thing, the death penalty is another. If most US citizens hypothetically are for the death penalty, should I still apply that logic? Or should I, in the belief that it is inherently immoral, go against their wishes and change the law to curtail the these lawful killings as soon as possible? It's largely dependent on how one regards the value of human life.
 

krexia

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When I get into those kinds of arguments, I say, "You're right, I probably would want the killer dead." It's entirely different when the problem is personal. Emotion can be a fundamentally irrational thing.
True, but that just comes down to a question of whether you let your emotions rule your mind. My friends regularly accuse me of being "too rational" or even (jokingly) "inhuman" because I refuse to make decisions based on emotion rather than reason.

You know, as much as I am against the death penalty, this quote actually makes me think.
A delegate normally ought to vote as a reflection of his/her constituents wishes, and so too should a law usually reflect the wishes of its society/culture.
But if you extend that argument to its logical conclusion, you end up with direct democracy, and justify the repression of minority opinions by a tyrannical majority.
 
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But if you extend that argument to its logical conclusion, you end up with direct democracy, and justify the repression of minority opinions by a tyrannical majority.

While there is that possibility, not necessarily.
This goes back to what I was talking about with "campaigning to change the minds of the constituents, not the delegates." It could be a fluctuating majority where opinion sways.
I was reading recently about public opinion on abortion. Did you know that opposition has spiked? Apparently, the majority of Americans are still against abortion. It sounds almost counter-intuitive. We're getting a more fundamentalist response when the law has made abortion legal for some time now?

Well when you supersede the opinion of the people and go straight to the law, you should expect more opposition. It's certainly creating a rift in society, though by no means am I saying we should repeal Roe v Wade. It just makes me wonder about the long term merit of going against the values of the people.

But I guess that's a bit of a tangent, I realized right now, because it's more to do with the question, "Should capital punishment be illegal? If so, how should we go about implementing that law?" rather than "What do you think about capital punishment?"
Going back to the original topic, yeah, I'm against capital punishment.
 

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I used to believe in it, but honestly... I can honestly say that my belief system is a bit more harsh now. :p ... I don't think people who do horrible crimes deserve to be put to death. ...No no no, they don't deserve to escape this world so fast. They deserved to be PUNISHED more severely. I'd say that they deserve to practically be tortured (depending on the crime), but... well here in the US- it isn't humane to do that. *sighs* I just don't think it's fair that they get to die so quickly. Sure, the death may be somewhat painful- but it's QUICK. Not like how the majority of them killed their victims (if the crime was some sort of murder- which normally it is) Do you know what I mean? Basically, the death penalty is too damn quick of a damn punishment. They deserve to suffer in prison.
 

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I've often gotten into the vengeance-or-not argument with friends, who will inevitably bring up the whole, "If your family was murdered, you'd want to kill their killer!" line. And when I say I wouldn't, the response is either, "You would if it actually happened," or, "How can you be so cold-hearted?"

When I get into those kinds of arguments, I say, "You're right, I probably would want the killer dead." It's entirely different when the problem is personal. Emotion can be a fundamentally irrational thing. My mind may reason that it is wrong to take vengeance, but that doesn't make me desire to do so any less. There's a discord in how I feel and how I think in such a case.
What I like in regards to Orwell's essay is that he doesn't dismiss the immediate emotional, perhaps even physical, need for revenge, but he suggests that we have misplaced it. The essays posits that the want for revenge isn't really a response against an individual or group, however 'deserving', but against a condition. "Revenge is an act which you want to commit when you are powerless and because you are powerless: once the feeling of impotence is removed, the desire evaporates also." Of course, that feeling of impotence can be difficult to dispel, and the ends to which people will go to escape feeling under another's power, even if in reality that power is effectively nil, is what gives revenge its atrocity I think.

Grass said:
You know, as much as I am against the death penalty, this quote actually makes me think.
A delegate normally ought to vote as a reflection of his/her constituents wishes, and so too should a law usually reflect the wishes of its society/culture.
[...]
But that begs the question of where to draw the line. Gay marriage is one thing, the death penalty is another. If most US citizens hypothetically are for the death penalty, should I still apply that logic? Or should I, in the belief that it is inherently immoral, go against their wishes and change the law to curtail the these lawful killings as soon as possible? It's largely dependent on how one regards the value of human life.
Or how one regards justice and the justice system. Does it answer solely to the desires of the people, or are there conditions where one can say that the desires of the people are unjust and should not be followed?

Alyssapie said:
I used to believe in it, but honestly... I can honestly say that my belief system is a bit more harsh now. :p ... I don't think people who do horrible crimes deserve to be put to death. ...No no no, they don't deserve to escape this world so fast. They deserved to be PUNISHED more severely. I'd say that they deserve to practically be tortured (depending on the crime), but... well here in the US- it isn't humane to do that. *sighs* I just don't think it's fair that they get to die so quickly. Sure, the death may be somewhat painful- but it's QUICK. Not like how the majority of them killed their victims (if the crime was some sort of murder- which normally it is) Do you know what I mean? Basically, the death penalty is too damn quick of a damn punishment. They deserve to suffer in prison.
This is the fundamental question so far as I see it--what is the purpose of the justice system and, more particularly, the death penalty? Is it primarily a system to administer punishment, or as you put it, deserved punishment? Or, as you also suggest, is it to enforce what is fair and give people what they deserve?
 
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Wehrmacht

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In my opinion the main objective of the justice system is (or should be) to reform individuals and help them back into society to prevent them and others from committing further offenses. I think most people deserve a second chance, we just have to give them a good one.
 

Teiku 5

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In my opinion the main objective of the justice system is (or should be) to reform individuals and help them back into society to prevent them and others from committing further offenses. I think most people deserve a second chance, we just have to give them a good one.

thats whats wrong with morals these days. everybody should be allowed to do what they want and not have any repercussions. /sarcasm. no, that's not how it should be.

Merriam-Webster definition for justice said:
the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

the whole idea of justice is that you get what you deserve. most everybody enjoys the rewards...living for the most part safely and happily in a country run by a mostly well functioning government that does a mostly good job of caring for its people (obviously theres flaws to running a country perfectly). on the other hand, if you decide to act as what society deems as violent or inappropriate to the point its punishable by law, punishment is what you get for it. punishment that matches the act of whatever you did.

this is basically just a larger version of the problems most parents have with their kids today. punishing children has gone out the window in a majority of parenting and letting kids do and get whatever they want is creating young adults and eventually adults that act the same way as they did when they were kids... people that think that they have no one to answer to, that they can do as please, and not get punished.
 
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This system used to be a form of intimidation to criminals. Then again, this was years ago, when penalties were limited to what we could call now exaggerated. But yes, I believe in the death penalty.
 

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thats whats wrong with morals these days. everybody should be allowed to do what they want and not have any repercussions.

But that's not how the world works. Without order there is chaos, and chaos can lead to said repercussions.

Unless that was a crude form of sarcasm, then correct me if I'm wrong.
 

krexia

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Well when you supersede the opinion of the people and go straight to the law, you should expect more opposition. It's certainly creating a rift in society, though by no means am I saying we should repeal Roe v Wade. It just makes me wonder about the long term merit of going against the values of the people.
But if the people were against, say, Universal Human Rights, would it be the job of lawmakers to represent that view too? Is it really best for governments to always do exactly what the majority want?

Does [the justice system] answer solely to the desires of the people, or are there conditions where one can say that the desires of the people are unjust and should not be followed?
Civilised countries rule out any kind of "justice" that is considered cruel, unusual or inhumane. Personally I think that justice systems should be based solely around what is necessary to protect society and individuals from harm, with rehabilitation the primary goal of any incarceration. I don't think what anyone believes a criminal "deserves" should be a factor at all. The whole idea that people "deserve" to be "punished" just rubs me the wrong way - it sounds like just another euphemism for revenge.
 

Wehrmacht

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the whole idea of justice is that you get what you deserve. most everybody enjoys the rewards...living for the most part safely and happily in a country run by a mostly well functioning government that does a mostly good job of caring for its people (obviously theres flaws to running a country perfectly). on the other hand, if you decide to act as what society deems as violent or inappropriate to the point its punishable by law, punishment is what you get for it. punishment that matches the act of whatever you did.

this is basically just a larger version of the problems most parents have with their kids today. punishing children has gone out the window in a majority of parenting and letting kids do and get whatever they want is creating young adults and eventually adults that act the same way as they did when they were kids... people that think that they have no one to answer to, that they can do as please, and not get punished.

I firmly believe that the aim behind any punishment should be should be the rehabilitation of the person involved, and not just trying to give people "what they deserve"; this applies to any kind of punishment, really, not just related to crimes. With the death penalty that's not really possible, because the person isn't going to be able to learn anything from the ordeal or apply it to their life because, well, they die. It's just a way to satisfy vindictive urges.

Ghandi said:
An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

Civilised countries rule out any kind of "justice" that is considered cruel, unusual or inhumane. Personally I think that justice systems should be based solely around what is necessary to protect society and individuals from harm, with rehabilitation the primary goal of any incarceration. I don't think what anyone believes a criminal "deserves" should be a factor at all. The whole idea that people "deserve" to be "punished" just rubs me the wrong way - it sounds like just another euphemism for revenge.

^Or this, in other words.
 

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This is the fundamental question so far as I see it--what is the purpose of the justice system and, more particularly, the death penalty? Is it primarily a system to administer punishment, or as you put it, deserved punishment? Or, as you also suggest, is it to enforce what is fair and give people what they deserve?

I'm pretty much for the "people get what they deserve" and "an eye for an eye" belief. Yes, I know it's not considered "MORALLY RIGHT", but I don't care. Unless you're harsh to a person, they won't normally listen to you. It's like with bullying: Ignoring bullies honestly doesn't help... not the MAJORITY of the time, anyway. They'll keep doing crap to you, worse and worse each time, to find your breaking point. Ignoring them or telling them to stop, lightly, doesn't normally fix anything. It's not until you're serious and AGGRESSIVE that people understand and start to take you seriously. ...And/or LEARN from their 'mistakes'. You know what I mean? Rapists, murderers, etc... I just... I don't know. Whatever the crime is that's harsh enough for the death penalty- I believe the death penalty is just too fast of a death. If someone beat, tortured, raped, and brutally murdered my mother- I wouldn't want the guy to get off easily with a "simple" death. No, he would deserve something much more harsh. Before he dies and goes to hell- if there Is such a place- he deserves to be punished severely on this Earth.

But that's just MY way of seeing it. I'm not one of those "OHH, WELL... 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE' IS JUST MORALLY WRONG AND STUFF, AND WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO GET ON THEIR LEVEL ANYWAY?! BLAH BLAH BLAH" Noooo, I'm not that type of person. Call me harsh, or whatever you want to, but at least I'm speaking the truth about my opinion. lmao
 

O a t h keeper

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I believe that every life has worth, so I don't think that a human has the right to take another human's life (except obviously in cases of self-defense). It is important to make sure that dangerous criminals can't hurt other people, but killing that person isn't necessary when a lifetime in prison would serve the same purpose.

I firmly believe that the aim behind any punishment should be should be the rehabilitation of the person involved, and not just trying to give people "what they deserve";

This too. Maybe most people who commit murders and other horrible crimes will not change, but there should always be the oppurunity for that person to repent and change themselves. Which is a pretty difficult thing to do if you're dead.
 

krexia

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Call me harsh, or whatever you want to, but at least I'm speaking the truth about my opinion. lmao
Yeah, because the rest of us are obviously just lying about our beliefs to look like better people. We couldn't possibly actually believe that revenge is a sickening concept with no place in civilisation.
 

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I think the death penalty should be used on Serial Killers, child molesters and terrorist leaders. I don't see the point in keeping a deranged serial killer in jail all his life, when his cell could go to somebody who can actually be reformed.
 
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