Discussion: Key to Return Hearts

[Gram]

Yup, seems so.
At least it would make more sense than the X-blade, lol. As for Eraqus' Keyblade being special though, I am not sure if that was really ever hinted or implied in-game or in an Nomura interview, or if it is just a widely spread fan speculation as the appearance of the Master Keeper in the E3 KH III Trailer has been stated by Nomura to be nothing more than a reminder of one of the main points of the story of KH III (and obviously being a reference back to BBS, which practically lays the groundwork for the story of KH III in all aspects).

I only view Masters Keeper as being potentially a special keyblade cause, as Nayru point out, the connection to LoD. Eraqus instructed Aqua to specifically use his keyblade when sealing/changing it into CO. If it were just any old basic keyblade it would seem to me he instruct to simply seal it with her own.

This exactly, while I am not opposed to bring characters back (especially when they still have much more potential to be further interesting), it should not be too easy and not be used too often. Dragonball is a huge offender on that turf and as much as I like Sailor Moon as a series, I have to say that story partly also overdoes it with the resurrections and reincarnations, as there the main characters die at least once each arc/season (most often in the finales) and are restored in the end. I do not really follow Naruto so I don't know if there is any abuse of resurrection of characters beside that one-time ability Pain used to revive the entirety of Konoha (and perish himself in the process, making it an ability that can only be used once).
Kingdom Hearts seems to avoid much of this so far simply by making the whole process to bring back someone apparently a real chore of work, so if the Princesses are heavily involved with this I would trust Nomura that he can implement something that would prevent it from being used over and over again like i.e. Sailor Moon's Silver Crystal or the Dragon Balls.

I'm not a naruto fan myself, I only know of what others have told me regarding its resurrection abuse.
I hope your right cause I could see Nomura going either way with this type of plot device.

Yep, and despite being a "teen", Sora still has that pureness in his heart, which is one of the central reasons as to why Ansem the Wise claims that Sora is the one who is able to even bring back people who were thought to be lost forever. When taking that into consideration, all those cries of some fans for Sora to become more "mature" would actually totally contradict this central theme of what Sora is and what his heart is made of.

lol When it comes to the "mature" bit I only wish for him to act a bit like his kh1 or CoM self though to match his current age. How he was portrayed in kh2 will forever irk me. [is in the kh2 sora=stupid camp]

It is even a question if the seven X-blade shards of light have a physical manifestation or if they are just metaphysical elements. Even the proto-X-blade made from Ven and Vanitas gained only a physical form as two of the twenty shards combined, so by itself one shard may not even have a form, it could be just a part of either the light or the darkness of a heart, and manifest only if the high-dimensional clash occurs that is needed to forge a version of the X-blade.
After all, the shards are made of the elements of light and dark, both being (usually) present in every heart, that's why potentially everyone could become either a light shard (Guardian of Light) or a dark shard (Seeker of Darkness) depending on which element is prevalent in the heart in question at the time of the clash.
The only exceptions would be obviously Vanitas (he has his own heart, derived from Ven's) who could only be a dark shard and the Princesses and Ven who could only be light shards respectively.
Going by this, I do not think that we can label the "X-blade shards" as actual physical pieces of a blade that are hidden in some persons heart or are "distributed" by some unseen force among the current Seekers of Darkness or Guardians of Light, but that the original shards are definitely lost and can just be "replicated" from the light and darkness of sufficiently strong hearts, which explains why both Seekers and Guardians do not have to be specific persons but are interchangeable.

Valid case, and a good one. Perhaps the "distribution" is carried out by the shards themselves assuming they can sense a chance they would be reformed/forged.

I am actually pretty convinced that the Keyholes came into being only after the Keyblade War, since the dividing of the original complete world into countless smaller ones resulted in each smaller world gaining/growing its own heart (think of Xehanort splitting his heart multiple times and/or Ven and Vanitas, but on a world-size scale). To protect these new hearts the Keyholes were devised.
As Yen Sid explains in Dream Drop Distance, the man-made Keyblades were originally crafted and designed for evil, to conquer the light. This does imply that the vast majority of the original Keyblade wielders were in fact power-hungry, greedy and egoistical assholes, maybe of an even worse kind than Xehanort is.

I know, I even listed the keyholes as a part of the system that was formed after the war ended.
I think it goes without saying the original keyslingers were dicks and a half. xD

Only after witnessing the massive devastation the Keyblade War waged across the universe, some few leftover Keyblade Wielders choose to repurpose the Keyblades to protect the light (and thus the new worlds and the children who created them). It's not too farfetched to assume that these few leftover good (or turned good) Keyblade Wielders were the ones to erect the current systems of Keyholes, walls around worlds and doors. If it were not leftover Wielders from the war though, maybe even some of the children that saved the universe were the ones to take up the man-made Keyblades to repurpose them
Which would also explain why Keyblade Wielders can so easily bypass all these restrictions as seen in BBS when Eraqus opened the Lanes between with some sort of power himself.

Well MX does mention a couple of sides in his reports namely the sides that fought for darkness [most likely the instigators wanting kh], those who fought to protect light [those who opposed the instigators but probably werent saints themselves], those solely after power [such as MX is now] and lastly those who wish to reconcile the two [meaning the light and dark]. Assuming MX is corrcet in this I'd say it was mostly likely leftover keybearers who fought to protect or reconcile that became the first heroes.

Though it's even more possible some of the children took up the job after re-purposing the very weapon that destroyed their world.
I'm a bit torn on which to lean towards.

With that, the continuous warnings Eraqus gave to Xehanort to not meddle too deep into such classified knowledge might get another level of importance, as the best security system can be breached if a foul apple has the necessary key to bypass it, like Xehanort does.

That was most likely another cog in the new defense system. By limiting the knowledge of the xblade from the new generations of master themselves it would prevent one such as Xehanort or the original wielders from abusing the keyblades power to start it all over again.

Obviously the safety measure failed though and in a kinda domino effect lead to so many problems later.

 

[ChibiHearts249]

I didn't mean that the KtRH was a sort of fountain AT ALL. I was just throwing it out there, since that's what this thread is about. As in "a place" I was thinking somewhere like LoD.

Do Keyblades exist before their wielders summon them for the first time? I always thought they were weilder-specific but there are a couple of exceptions.
1) In KH2 when Riku HANDS Kairi her Keyblade
2) Whenever we see a character weild another person's Keyblade
3) Aqua using Master Keeper AFTER Eraqus is defeated (tho it's every possibility that they just stick around and can be used by anyone, I suppose)

Not very good examples, I know, but Keyblades are supposed to be picky.

 

[Gram]

Do Keyblades exist before their wielders summon them for the first time? I always thought they were weilder-specific but there are a couple of exceptions.
1) In KH2 when Riku HANDS Kairi her Keyblade
2) Whenever we see a character weild another person's Keyblade
3) Aqua using Master Keeper AFTER Eraqus is defeated (tho it's every possibility that they just stick around and can be used by anyone, I suppose)

Not very good examples, I know, but Keyblades are supposed to be picky.

It is mentioned in the DDD glossary when regarding master selecting new wielders that they must prove their heart worthy "before the keyblade appears in their hands".

But that could actually go either way, perhaps it is formed and later appears, or perhaps in exists prematurely and only takes form later.
Also until said otherwise Riku only "lent" kairi that keyblade she has none of her own yet. She just merely has the ability to wield.
Eraqus is a poor example because it was simply Aqua taking into possession a keyblade that belonged to another which fits into your 2 on your list.

Though a particular thing to point out, if the keyblades truly do exist before their first summoned or whether it comes into form later it would seem that the keyblade reflects it's wielder in some fashion or another.
Example: The way to dawn being formed and based from soul eater.

 

[ChibiHearts249]

Well, the main reason I counted Aqua as different was because she could even use MK's special power. Also, the fact that Eraqus was gone (but not really, I guess) to me, makes me feel like his Keyblade would lose it's powers without it's wielder. Now, I know that's most likely NOT TRUE, but if they still had power, why are all those Keyblades in the Graveyard collecting dust and rust? It makes them seem like they have no will, no energy since their users passed on. So they were left there. Kinda like grave markers.

Back to Aqua and MK. If only THAT Keyblade can change the LoD, wouldn't that mean that MK is passed down from master to master? LoD can't have only been around while Eraqus was there, and he makes it sound as if the knowledge (quite literally said) is passed down, so he couldn't have just discovered it with his OWN Keyblade.

 

[Gram]

Well, the main reason I counted Aqua as different was because she could even use MK's special power. Also, the fact that Eraqus was gone (but not really, I guess) to me, makes me feel like his Keyblade would lose it's powers without it's wielder. Now, I know that's most likely NOT TRUE, but if they still had power, why are all those Keyblades in the Graveyard collecting dust and rust? It makes them seem like they have no will, no energy since their users passed on. So they were left there. Kinda like grave markers.

Back to Aqua and MK. If only THAT Keyblade can change the LoD, wouldn't that mean that MK is passed down from master to master? LoD can't have only been around while Eraqus was there, and he makes it sound as if the knowledge (quite literally said) is passed down, so he couldn't have just discovered it with his OWN Keyblade.

That's not really anything special though, any keyblade master who's been taught how or even just instructed how could use MK's power. Heck probably even a normal wielder could.

That would make the MK itself special not Aqua nor would it apply to your examples earlier. Plus we dont really know what happened to the wielders or those keyblades that rest in the keyblade graveyard, just that their "lifeless".

Yes that would mean the MK is passed down. In DDD's glossary it mentions that among the masters there is "one true successor" who is charged with guarding LoD, which would be Aqua since Eraqus left his keyblade to her.
In all likelyhood Eraqus did probably have his own keyblade but succeeded his master and took the MK.

But none of this still works as an example because it's still Aqua and even Eraqus picking up a preexisting keyblade that belonged to a master before them. Has nothing to do with when they would've first summoned their own.
And of course this only applies if the MK being special theory turns out to be true.

 

[Nayru's Love]

I'm surprised you guys missed the argument of Destiny's Embrace, the keyblade seemingly based off of DI.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I think there's decent potential for Master Keeper to be a special keyblade; the most striking piece of evidence is its possible relation to LoD/CO. If any keyblade could've transformed the world, then why would Eraqus bother to instruct Aqua to use his keyblade, specifically?

I made a theory a while back about MK possibly being a reciprocal to the KoPH. Whereas one keyblade and its respective keyhole would exist to threaten the safety of the RoL, another pair would exist to defend it.

Potential is there, granted, but I hesitate to make it out to something as grand as a tool that is seemingly needed to restore/revive living beings. I don't know about you, but I think that such a power has to be one of the greatest possible powers around, the complete antithesis to the X-blade and the all-destroying Keyblade War. If the Master Keeper could be really a tool for such an immense ability, I find it highly unlikely that Eraqus would not have known about it.

Is that really evidence though? That there are some Keyholes out there in which only one key fits is not really that farfetched, but can you really make a jump so far from that to such a powerful ability like the KtRH is implied to have. From Eraqus' explanation to Aqua it also sounded more like the protection against misuse was confined solely to the world of LoD itself and not the entire realm. Lest we forget that LoD is also actually a world of the Realm of In-Between, and not of the RoL, so why would the Keyhole to threaten the RoL be in the RoL itself (at Radiant Garden) but the one to defend it in the RoI (at Land of Departure)?

If the MK would be a sort of "counterpart" to the KoPH though, that would imply that the MK is actually a Keyblade of the "heart"-category.

I only view Masters Keeper as being potentially a special keyblade cause, as Nayru point out, the connection to LoD. Eraqus instructed Aqua to specifically use his keyblade when sealing/changing it into CO. If it were just any old basic keyblade it would seem to me he instruct to simply seal it with her own.


I'm not a naruto fan myself, I only know of what others have told me regarding its resurrection abuse.
I hope your right cause I could see Nomura going either way with this type of plot device.

I see, well, on that note I also won't deny that the Master Keeper has a difference to other Keyblades, also in the vein of apparently being passed down through generations of official "successors". Saying that, it almost seems as if the Master Keeper is not a person-bound Keyblade like almost all others we know (it doesn't choose its wielder), but a world-bound Keyblade. Maybe the heart the Master Keeper is tied to isn't actually Eraqus' or Aqua's, but the heart of Land of Departure, the world itself. But since a world does not have limbs to wield a Keyblade, the official successor is always the one to wield it.
I'm only wary to infer from this already to a much bigger role like the Key to Return Hearts, especially since the purpose for showing the MK in an early concept trailer has been revealed by now.

Ah, ok, lol, seems they do use it more often then.
Even if Nomura goes the other way with this plot device, which I hope he doesn't since such devices should be used in a meaningful manner, KH would not be in too bad company since despite all resurrection stuff overload Naruto, Sailor Moon and Dragonball are still highly liked series of their own right.

lol When it comes to the "mature" bit I only wish for him to act a bit like his kh1 or CoM self though to match his current age. How he was portrayed in kh2 will forever irk me. [is in the kh2 sora=stupid camp]


Valid case, and a good one. Perhaps the "distribution" is carried out by the shards themselves assuming they can sense a chance they would be reformed/forged.


I know, I even listed the keyholes as a part of the system that was formed after the war ended.
I think it goes without saying the original keyslingers were dicks and a half. xD

That's another thing indeed, as "mature" can mean very different things in very different contexts. That's why I can't help but be highly amused by those who think that just because Nomura spoke about a "mature" Sora we will see a 18/19 year old Sora in KH III, lol.
There is also a saying that physical age does not have to reflect mental age or maturity. Even in our real world, there are people who become depressive because they are coerced into "acting their age" by society.

That's also a possibility, maybe it is even an automatic procedure build-in in the formless pieces of the original X-blade, as originally the X-blade as a counterpart of KH to protect it did exist, so the notion that it somewhat may want to exist again and the shards take every opportunity is plausible.
That may be even what Xehanort is speculating for because he is creating the circumstances for all twenty pieces to manifest on purpose by himself.

Yep, the original, united world back in the lost age would, if at all, have only one Keyhole, the one leading to KH itself.
Good thing they all perished, right? Now when we get to think about that somehow some of these idiots could really be re-awakened/revived at the current time...jeez.

Well MX does mention a couple of sides in his reports namely the sides that fought for darkness [most likely the instigators wanting kh], those who fought to protect light [those who opposed the instigators but probably werent saints themselves], those solely after power [such as MX is now] and lastly those who wish to reconcile the two [meaning the light and dark]. Assuming MX is corrcet in this I'd say it was mostly likely leftover keybearers who fought to protect or reconcile that became the first heroes.

Though it's even more possible some of the children took up the job after re-purposing the very weapon that destroyed their world.
I'm a bit torn on which to lean towards.


That was most likely another cog in the new defense system. By limiting the knowledge of the xblade from the new generations of master themselves it would prevent one such as Xehanort or the original wielders from abusing the keyblades power to start it all over again.

Obviously the safety measure failed though and in a kinda domino effect lead to so many problems later.

Yes, MX does mention several factions, although there is no real information about their members widespread morality or intentions, as they arguably were all using Keyblades, which were forged by mankind in order to conquer Kingdom Hearts. So "protecting the light" in that era could just as easily mean "destroy all and any living beings that have let in the darkness and take KH for US, the only righteous people". Those solely after power I guess would be renegades from both light and darkness who do not care about alignment but just for increasing their personal influence, leading also to the "greedy" point which seems to run rampant during that era.
Those who wished to reconcile light and dark (which could be argued as impossible from the get go because the greed and egoism of some humans was what introduced darkness into the RoL in the first place, before those greedy idiots there was no darkness in the RoL) could certainly be seen as the most idealistic group in terms of simply wanting to end the war.
It's somewhat funny that this are four factions so far, add a fifth one and you get the five unions from KH X[chi].

Considering the philosophies that Yen Sid and Eraqus, the oldest Masters we know so far (MX is a renegade, so he doesn't really count), the lore that has been passed down seems to be indeed mostly about protecting the light and keep darkness in check, but not destroy it, so if the original heroes of the Keyblade who repurposed the aim of the man-made Keyblades were indeed survivors from the war, the would have been most likely from one of these two factions indeed.

If it were some of the children, it would probably offer a sort of explanation as to why the "security system" put in place, despite holding thousands of years so far, has some serious flaws that can be exploited with sufficient preparation.
Both is possible, and I guess everyone can take the explanation that fits him or her better since I doubt that this will ever be explored in-depth.

Yep, too bad there were apparently other sources from which this knowledge can be gained, as while Eraqus and Yen Sid clearly know more about it (I guess everything pertaining to these things is also part of the classified information only an individual with the Master title is supposed to know), Xehanort found out more about the whole issues on his own.

Considering how long the system is in place already it seems to have worked fine for generations though before Xehanort started his messing around.
That's something typical for a breached security system though I'd say, once a breach is there, if you haven't got several layers of failsafe-systems, the system is bound to collapse sooner or later.
The fact that Apprentice Xehanort opened the door to the Heart of Radiant Garden, the collapse of all the walls around the worlds and the sudden ability of the Pureblood Heartless to enter the RoL at will shortly after BBS can also be indicators of the so long established "security system" falling to pieces more and more.
Master Xehanort destroying the LoD-castle and casting it into darkness was maybe even also a piece of his plan to disrupt the security system of the RoL, to undo the "order" that was created after the Keyblade War and that he was hurting Terra with it was just a welcome side-effect.

I didn't mean that the KtRH was a sort of fountain AT ALL. I was just throwing it out there, since that's what this thread is about. As in "a place" I was thinking somewhere like LoD.

Do Keyblades exist before their wielders summon them for the first time? I always thought they were weilder-specific but there are a couple of exceptions.
1) In KH2 when Riku HANDS Kairi her Keyblade
2) Whenever we see a character weild another person's Keyblade
3) Aqua using Master Keeper AFTER Eraqus is defeated (tho it's every possibility that they just stick around and can be used by anyone, I suppose)

Not very good examples, I know, but Keyblades are supposed to be picky.

If it would be a place like LoD, that would add another layer of complexity to the whole issue as then no one could be restored/saved until Aqua can turn Castle Oblivion back into LoD, and even then maybe the Castle of LoD has to be rebuild first.

That's an interesting question actually, Nomura stated that there are as many Keyblades as there are qualified hearts, it is safe to assume that they are created "heart by heart", but if they already exist in a non-physical form before summoned for the first time is not elaborated upon. Maybe it becomes clearer if we do not say "wielder-specific" but "heart-specific". Since worlds have hearts too, a Keyblade specific to a world's heart (or any heart belonging to a non-humanoid lifeform) would explain exceptions that aren't "wielder-specific". The X-blade for example is the "Keyblade" specific for the true Kingdom Hearts itself, hence why it stands outside all others.

For 1) We do not really know if the second Keyblade Riku hands to Kairi in KH 2 is really her specific Keyblade (as in the Keyblade that choose Kairi) or just another Keyblade (most likely Xehanort's, cuz Riku had Ansem SoD's heart (or at least a Xehanort-piece of heart) inside him at that time) with the Destiny's Embrace-keychain attached to it.
For 2) That depends really on circumstances as i.e. when Riku uses Roxas' Oblivion, he is just making use of his ability of being officially choosen as a wielder by the ceremony (Roxas, just like Sora, never had the ceremony) and if the Oblivion was really Sora's blade (and Oathkeeper was Ven's when wielded by Roxas), Riku could use it as its former intended wielder.
For 3) The answer to that will be if Master Keeper is really Eraqus' personal Keyblade (like Rainfell for Aqua) of if it is really a Keyblade that doesn't belong to a single person but that is passed down.

The Master Keeper may also be that picky in that it lets only the offcial choosen "successor" and Master of LoD wield itself, and since Eraqus choose Aqua as his successor (and despite if Eraqus is gone for good or not, he's currently incapacitated), Master Keeper would accept her and let her wield it.

I'm surprised you guys missed the argument of Destiny's Embrace, the keyblade seemingly based off of DI.

What argument? Where?
If Destiny's Embrace is really Kairi's Keyblade or not? I doubt that this is on-topic, lol.

 

[MATGSY]

It crossed my mind lately that the key may be in pieces & has to be reassembled. I got nothing to back that up but it seems like this key is pretty much the excuse plot for justifying going to Disney worlds. If there's just the 1 key it most certainly isn't gonna be found in an actual Disney world, thus rendering 90% of the game a wild goose chase. Now if each world had a piece of the key hidden, then at least the worlds play some degree of relevance to the main story.

 

[Nayru's Love]

Potential is there, granted, but I hesitate to make it out to something as grand as a tool that is seemingly needed to restore/revive living beings. I don't know about you, but I think that such a power has to be one of the greatest possible powers around, the complete antithesis to the X-blade and the all-destroying Keyblade War. If the Master Keeper could be really a tool for such an immense ability, I find it highly unlikely that Eraqus would not have known about it.

If the MK would be a sort of "counterpart" to the KoPH though, that would imply that the MK is actually a Keyblade of the "heart"-category.

Personally speaking, I don't think MK is the KtRH; I'm just anticipating it to be a Keyblade of Heart.

Actually, I remember Theart showing me a comparison between the way Sora picks up the KoPH in KH1 and the way he picks up MK in the trailer; they're noticeably identical.

From Eraqus' explanation to Aqua it also sounded more like the protection against misuse was confined solely to the world of LoD itself and not the entire realm. Lest we forget that LoD is also actually a world of the Realm of In-Between, and not of the RoL, so why would the Keyhole to threaten the RoL be in the RoL itself (at Radiant Garden) but the one to defend it in the RoI (at Land of Departure)?

IIRC, LoD's purpose in the grand scheme of things was something along the lines of "maintaining the balance between light and darkness," as Eraqus told Aqua.

What argument? Where?
If Destiny's Embrace is really Kairi's Keyblade or not? I doubt that this is on-topic, lol.

I digress.

Destiny's Embrace looks like a keyblade based off of DI. However, Aqua acquired the keychain before either she or Kairi even set foot there. If not keyblades, then maybe something like memories may be able to transcend time.

(Or an old man with crazy plans, for that matter)

 

[gosoxtim]

i going out to limb maybe the key to return hearts is both kairi and sora maybe they friendship is strong that it forms the key to return hearts that sora can wield. i'm saying this because maybe those two are the answer because if they both got each other heart back maybe they can give everybody heart back

 

[Gram]

I see, well, on that note I also won't deny that the Master Keeper has a difference to other Keyblades, also in the vein of apparently being passed down through generations of official "successors". Saying that, it almost seems as if the Master Keeper is not a person-bound Keyblade like almost all others we know (it doesn't choose its wielder), but a world-bound Keyblade. Maybe the heart the Master Keeper is tied to isn't actually Eraqus' or Aqua's, but the heart of Land of Departure, the world itself. But since a world does not have limbs to wield a Keyblade, the official successor is always the one to wield it.
I'm only wary to infer from this already to a much bigger role like the Key to Return Hearts, especially since the purpose for showing the MK in an early concept trailer has been revealed by now.

That's actually a rather interesting theory that the Masters Keeper is bound not to wielders but the world itself.
As for the MK being something as grand as the KtRH I'm on the fence, it seems possible but I can see it not happening as well. My only argument is that the Masters Keeper is special in some way since it remained after Eraqus' had fallen and that it didn't degrade into one of the 'lifeless' keyblades we seen littered in the keyblade graveyard.

That's another thing indeed, as "mature" can mean very different things in very different contexts. That's why I can't help but be highly amused by those who think that just because Nomura spoke about a "mature" Sora we will see a 18/19 year old Sora in KH III, lol.
There is also a saying that physical age does not have to reflect mental age or maturity. Even in our real world, there are people who become depressive because they are coerced into "acting their age" by society.

lol Those amuse me as well, MX wouldn't even wait for sora to be 15 and a half for his plans let alone till he's 18. x'D

That's also a possibility, maybe it is even an automatic procedure build-in in the formless pieces of the original X-blade, as originally the X-blade as a counterpart of KH to protect it did exist, so the notion that it somewhat may want to exist again and the shards take every opportunity is plausible.
That may be even what Xehanort is speculating for because he is creating the circumstances for all twenty pieces to manifest on purpose by himself.

That's what I'm thinking as well, if man-made keyblades hold a partial sentience than it's make sense the original did as well, possibly even a whole sentience unto itself and it'd want to follow it's purpose of protecting kh.

Yep, the original, united world back in the lost age would, if at all, have only one Keyhole, the one leading to KH itself.
Good thing they all perished, right? Now when we get to think about that somehow some of these idiots could really be re-awakened/revived at the current time...jeez.

A good thing indeed. If they all came back in some way it'd be like a flood of Xehanorts that aren't Xehanort. Dx

Yes, MX does mention several factions, although there is no real information about their members widespread morality or intentions, as they arguably were all using Keyblades, which were forged by mankind in order to conquer Kingdom Hearts. So "protecting the light" in that era could just as easily mean "destroy all and any living beings that have let in the darkness and take KH for US, the only righteous people". Those solely after power I guess would be renegades from both light and darkness who do not care about alignment but just for increasing their personal influence, leading also to the "greedy" point which seems to run rampant during that era.
Those who wished to reconcile light and dark (which could be argued as impossible from the get go because the greed and egoism of some humans was what introduced darkness into the RoL in the first place, before those greedy idiots there was no darkness in the RoL) could certainly be seen as the most idealistic group in terms of simply wanting to end the war.
It's somewhat funny that this are four factions so far, add a fifth one and you get the five unions from KH X[chi].

Exactly, that's why I listed the "protectors of light" as not being saints themselves. If anything of all the factions listed the only one that seems most likely to have had a honest goal was those who wish to reconcile.
As for the morals part you mentioned, I though of that and if sora can literally step into being a wielder by accident then I dont doubt others took up the keyblade then to try and stop those seeped in darkness (meaning those who wish to reconcile when I say this) so I doubt that ALL of them were evil. Though it's be like a 2% that wasn't evil judging from the legends and scale of the war.

Considering the philosophies that Yen Sid and Eraqus, the oldest Masters we know so far (MX is a renegade, so he doesn't really count), the lore that has been passed down seems to be indeed mostly about protecting the light and keep darkness in check, but not destroy it, so if the original heroes of the Keyblade who repurposed the aim of the man-made Keyblades were indeed survivors from the war, the would have been most likely from one of these two factions indeed.

Agreed completely, their the only faction that seemed likely to not be entirely evil.

If it were some of the children, it would probably offer a sort of explanation as to why the "security system" put in place, despite holding thousands of years so far, has some serious flaws that can be exploited with sufficient preparation.
Both is possible, and I guess everyone can take the explanation that fits him or her better since I doubt that this will ever be explored in-depth.

Sadly I doubt it'll be explained either but at least we got what info we have now I guess. xD

Yep, too bad there were apparently other sources from which this knowledge can be gained, as while Eraqus and Yen Sid clearly know more about it (I guess everything pertaining to these things is also part of the classified information only an individual with the Master title is supposed to know), Xehanort found out more about the whole issues on his own.

I've always wondered how MX came across his knowledge of it all, he mentions in bbs reports that he's "heard of a few others outside his circle" so possibly he gained it from other masters he came across. [or forced it out of them]
Though it's also possible he's found ruins of the war and old world in his travels, the KG being a good example.

Considering how long the system is in place already it seems to have worked fine for generations though before Xehanort started his messing around.
That's something typical for a breached security system though I'd say, once a breach is there, if you haven't got several layers of failsafe-systems, the system is bound to collapse sooner or later.
The fact that Apprentice Xehanort opened the door to the Heart of Radiant Garden, the collapse of all the walls around the worlds and the sudden ability of the Pureblood Heartless to enter the RoL at will shortly after BBS can also be indicators of the so long established "security system" falling to pieces more and more.
Master Xehanort destroying the LoD-castle and casting it into darkness was maybe even also a piece of his plan to disrupt the security system of the RoL, to undo the "order" that was created after the Keyblade War and that he was hurting Terra with it was just a welcome side-effect.

Now that you mention it I'm rather surprised there isn't several fail-safes in place for such a break down cause it seems rather impractical to set up the entire Realm of Lights barrier against the dark realm and it's denizens solely on one world.
Once that main wall broke down all the walls around individual worlds followed, like taking the corner stone of a building out.

I had never thought of that, Eraqus says it's special and there's only one "true" successor to guard it so it's very likely it was a central piece like Radiant Garden's door was.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Personally speaking, I don't think MK is the KtRH; I'm just anticipating it to be a Keyblade of Heart.

Actually, I remember Theart showing me a comparison between the way Sora picks up the KoPH in KH1 and the way he picks up MK in the trailer; they're noticeably identical.


IIRC, LoD's purpose in the grand scheme of things was something along the lines of "maintaining the balance between light and darkness," as Eraqus told Aqua.


I digress.

Destiny's Embrace looks like a keyblade based off of DI. However, Aqua acquired the keychain before either she or Kairi even set foot there. If not keyblades, then maybe something like memories may be able to transcend time.

(Or an old man with crazy plans, for that matter)

Considering it's assumed purpose it would make sense if it was a Keyblade of that type indeed.
Personally speaking though, I am not yet set on what this Key may actually be.
I still think that it could be either:
- a Keyblade
- a Person
- an Ability (either a single-use one or one that is spread over several persons/Keyblades that need to be used in conjunction).

On a less in-universe perspective, I do think that the "Key to Return Hearts" is in fact the plot device that is introduced by Nomura and co. as an excuse as to why Sora has to travel around countless Disney worlds again. Since Riku already has been entrusted with the data that is said to be the key to saving the tormented people and we know from Blank Points, Coded and DDD that Sora is the one supposed to do it, there would have been no reason to do a merry go-around in different Disney worlds without an additional piece added to the whole procedure.
Without this new Key, all they would have needed to do is to decipher the data (which could be done with the help of either the Datascape at Disney Castle or Space Paranoids at Radiant Garden), have Sora learn how to do the saving-thing and then go searching for Aqua together, find her and Ansem the Wise, then rescue Ven, do research on Terra's whereabouts and do something about Roxas, Naminé and Xion.
All this could be done with just original worlds (and Disney Castle and Mysterious Tower) without having to set one foot in a regular Disney world => unthinkable for a real KH-game.

The fact that the actual search for the tormented ones (i.e. finding Aqua in the vast Realm of Darkness, do research on Terra) has been relegated to Riku and Mickey also comes into the picture in the same vein as it serves to have an excuse to have Sora not go to the Realm of Darkness to search for Aqua but instead (as even Nomura put it) sending him on a wild goose-chase around the Disney worlds.

This is the main storyline of KINGDOM HEARTS III - Sora must go on an adventure to find the "key" without knowing what or where it is. But as you know, we can’t really say anything else on the subject (laughs).

If I have to make a wild prediction I'd say that unless we get a playable Riku and Mickey and the focus of the narrative switches between several parties, the only thing we might see of the Realm of Darkness is a small playable segment where Sora goes there to actually get Aqua and AtW out from there, as the actual search for her is not his task anymore and while Sora does get Aqua out, Riku and Mickey have learned from Aqua about Ven and have already moved on to do research on Terra.

---

Coincidence? After all, the E3-Trailer is just conceptual and Nomura claimed the appearance of the Master Keeper serves only as a reminder for the story because they couldn't prepare any real story footage yet.

Funny that Eraqus out of all people spoke about maintaining the balance, lol, considering his personal views on the matter. Then again though, there was a good balance on things in the Realm of Light until Master Xehanort started to mess things up.

Remember Radiant Garden at BBS times had an overabundant amount of flowers? Aqua gained the Keychain after kid-Kairi gave her a bouquet of flowers, so it could also be easily based off the original Radiant Garden.
Heck, even the opening animation of the world in BBS had animated flowers in them. And then there's of course the name of the world itself *whistles*.

That's actually a rather interesting theory that the Masters Keeper is bound not to wielders but the world itself.
As for the MK being something as grand as the KtRH I'm on the fence, it seems possible but I can see it not happening as well. My only argument is that the Masters Keeper is special in some way since it remained after Eraqus' had fallen and that it didn't degrade into one of the 'lifeless' keyblades we seen littered in the keyblade graveyard.

I got the idea when I looked at the fact that Keyblades are normally personalized for their wielder, and the heart of the wielder chosen by the blade itself. However, if there is a blade that can be passed down between several individuals and it remains the same, it cannot be tied to that wielders heart. Then I remembered that worlds have hearts too, and since Master Keeper seems to be heavily linked to the Land of Departure, the chosen "wielder" of Master Keeper may be actually that world's heart, with the current "successor" acting as the bearer of that world's key.
This would of course bring up the question on how Eraqus' personal Keyblade looks like and it would also put him (and now Aqua) in a similar situation to Mickey with his Star Seeker and Kingdom Key D.

Yep, as said above, I am not even sure yet what theKtRH is.

lol Those amuse me as well, MX wouldn't even wait for sora to be 15 and a half for his plans let alone till he's 18. x'D


That's what I'm thinking as well, if man-made keyblades hold a partial sentience than it's make sense the original did as well, possibly even a whole sentience unto itself and it'd want to follow it's purpose of protecting kh.



A good thing indeed. If they all came back in some way it'd be like a flood of Xehanorts that aren't Xehanort. Dx

Indeed, lol, gotta love people jumping to conclusions just because of such a little issue. It's astounding how "mature" automatically translates to some as "age 18" despite it making no sense storywise *ggg*.

Possible indeed, although the "sentience" the X-blade shards may have could hold ideas and perceptions for fulfilling its purpose that may vastly clash with anything the human characters may have in mind, both Sora & co. and Xehanorganisation XIII included.
Heck, considering what caused the downfall and near-destruction of the original united world as well as the shattering of the original X-blade, the own sentience of the X-blade shards may not be too keen on humans in general (except maybe children).

That would reverse the whole theme of the antagonists of the series, lolz.
Nomura: "No, none of these people has anything to do with Xehanort and none of them is Xehanort. But depending on your views, you may consider each of them worse than Xehanort. (laughs)".

Exactly, that's why I listed the "protectors of light" as not being saints themselves. If anything of all the factions listed the only one that seems most likely to have had a honest goal was those who wish to reconcile.
As for the morals part you mentioned, I though of that and if sora can literally step into being a wielder by accident then I dont doubt others took up the keyblade then to try and stop those seeped in darkness (meaning those who wish to reconcile when I say this) so I doubt that ALL of them were evil. Though it's be like a 2% that wasn't evil judging from the legends and scale of the war.


Agreed completely, their the only faction that seemed likely to not be entirely evil.


Sadly I doubt it'll be explained either but at least we got what info we have now I guess. xD


I've always wondered how MX came across his knowledge of it all, he mentions in bbs reports that he's "heard of a few others outside his circle" so possibly he gained it from other masters he came across. [or forced it out of them]
Though it's also possible he's found ruins of the war and old world in his travels, the KG being a good example.

Now that you mention it I'm rather surprised there isn't several fail-safes in place for such a break down cause it seems rather impractical to set up the entire Realm of Lights barrier against the dark realm and it's denizens solely on one world.
Once that main wall broke down all the walls around individual worlds followed, like taking the corner stone of a building out.

I had never thought of that, Eraqus says it's special and there's only one "true" successor to guard it so it's very likely it was a central piece like Radiant Garden's door was.

Yes, perhaps because those were the ones that had a bit of insight on the matter that went beyond just accumulating power or ruling. Maybe this faction realized that, once first introduced (and Darkness was first born when humans started to get selfish and some wanted the light of KH for themselves) Darkness cannot be destroyed/completely erased anymore because it became a part of the natural order.

While Xehanort mentions the factions, he makes no statement about numbers and individuals. While the factions of Darkness and Light may have had "legions", it is entirely possible that the factions who tried to reconcile and those just lusting for personal power were much smaller in numbers, and then there are of course those who were not affiliated with any faction but just "drawn into the war" when their part of the united world became part of the battlegrounds. So the possibility of some "Sora"-esque individuals as well as some genuinely kind hearts who truly wanted to save the original world is surely there, and depending on overall population I would also suspect their share was a bit bigger than 2%, as otherwise they would be the first to be wiped out by the massive legions of the other factions.

I'd also say that within the Light-faction, maybe even rarely in the Dark one (Riku- and Terra-like people), there were some genuinely good people, but these obviously weren't in the higher up hierachy of the command structure in either faction since if such people would have been in charge the war would not have escalated so far as it originally did.
I guess the 2% value of "good" people would apply more to these big factions, lol.

On that topic I am even wondering if we need to have that all explained. Fantasy universes really should keep some mysteries for themselves at all times and to be frank, while I certainly want most of the original characters to be retained in the new saga, especially our three main trios, the actual premise and background of the story should be completely fresh. It can still involve Kingdom Hearts itself somehow, but let the Keyblade War be and focus on some other aspect of the universe, the idea of re-creating the Keyblade War and destroy the universe in order to recreate it yourself or to explore its secrets should disappear together with Xehanort.

Well, he really travelled long and far during his mid-years after he left Land of Departure and when looking at his reports he found Ventus rather late in his life. The Vanitas incident took place four years before BBS itself and since Ven was 10/11years old at that time I doubt MX had him as an apprentice longer than at most two years by then.
If he had not any apprentices before Ven he would be totally free to do whatever he likes, and I bet someone like Xehanort was skimming through every ancient library he could find in every world he visited. Then there's the things you mention, he could have met other Keyblade Masters with access to classified knowledge, among them possibly some with less strict morals as Eraqus or even Yen Sid have or he could also have pulled an Indiana Jones/Lara Croft and roam through old ruins and forgotten temples to unearth knowledge that may have been even forgotten by most of the current Keyblade Masters.
Of course he may have done also a mix of all this. ;P

It may even be that there were fail-safe mechanisms but those were simply overloaded over time. The breakdown of the walls of the worlds allowed Heartless to enter them at will (and exposed their Keyholes and thus their hearts), but even before that Xehanort and Ansem's apprentices were creating artificial Heartless en masse in their experiments. These didn't need to cross over from the RoD to the RoL like the Purebloods to cause havoc so they could already gnaw away at the walls of the other worlds from the lanes between. Xehanort opening the door in RG may have been just the last push which finally brought the already weakened structure down.
Then there is of course also Maleficent and her Heartless Army to take into account. Maleficent attacked several worlds and actually started to kidnap the seven Princesses starting with Aurora when she destroyed her own world (which wasn't actively instigated by Xehanort, but by Maleficent herself). Since the seven Princesses are what keep the RoL stable as a replacement of the true KH, I could imagine with each Princess that got lost the defenses of the worlds and the whole "security-system" got weaker.

Keeping all that above in mind while also assuming that LoD was a central piece as well, whatever role Land of Departure may play in the whole system was as such already taken out by Master Xehanort wisely beforehand.

 

[Gram]

I got the idea when I looked at the fact that Keyblades are normally personalized for their wielder, and the heart of the wielder chosen by the blade itself. However, if there is a blade that can be passed down between several individuals and it remains the same, it cannot be tied to that wielders heart. Then I remembered that worlds have hearts too, and since Master Keeper seems to be heavily linked to the Land of Departure, the chosen "wielder" of Master Keeper may be actually that world's heart, with the current "successor" acting as the bearer of that world's key.
This would of course bring up the question on how Eraqus' personal Keyblade looks like and it would also put him (and now Aqua) in a similar situation to Mickey with his Star Seeker and Kingdom Key D.

Yep, as said above, I am not even sure yet what theKtRH is.

That makes a lot of sense when approached from that angle, it was certainly explain the Master Keepers ability to literally alter the LoD itself into another form. Since it didn't just form CO it also seemed to have warped LoDs lush mountains and landscapes into and endless expanse of rolling plains. That is of course judging from what we've seen of the world as of Chain of Memories intro and BBS.

Possible indeed, although the "sentience" the X-blade shards may have could hold ideas and perceptions for fulfilling its purpose that may vastly clash with anything the human characters may have in mind, both Sora & co. and Xehanorganisation XIII included.
Heck, considering what caused the downfall and near-destruction of the original united world as well as the shattering of the original X-blade, the own sentience of the X-blade shards may not be too keen on humans in general (except maybe children).

That would reverse the whole theme of the antagonists of the series, lolz.
Nomura: "No, none of these people has anything to do with Xehanort and none of them is Xehanort. But depending on your views, you may consider each of them worse than Xehanort. (laughs)".

That's entirely a possibility. Depending on just how sentient it is, from human like level to merely following it's "programming", it could have scorn for humans for not only shattering it but making what are more or less cheap copies of it to use in their greed.

Yes, perhaps because those were the ones that had a bit of insight on the matter that went beyond just accumulating power or ruling. Maybe this faction realized that, once first introduced (and Darkness was first born when humans started to get selfish and some wanted the light of KH for themselves) Darkness cannot be destroyed/completely erased anymore because it became a part of the natural order.

It kinda makes you wonder how it wasn't already in the natural order since, to us, it's impossible to imagine a world without a shadow to counterbalance light.

While Xehanort mentions the factions, he makes no statement about numbers and individuals. While the factions of Darkness and Light may have had "legions", it is entirely possible that the factions who tried to reconcile and those just lusting for personal power were much smaller in numbers, and then there are of course those who were not affiliated with any faction but just "drawn into the war" when their part of the united world became part of the battlegrounds. So the possibility of some "Sora"-esque individuals as well as some genuinely kind hearts who truly wanted to save the original world is surely there, and depending on overall population I would also suspect their share was a bit bigger than 2%, as otherwise they would be the first to be wiped out by the massive legions of the other factions.

I know he never mentioned them I just assume there was at least legions on two sides of the conflict due to the scale of destruction and how wide spread the war was.
Agreed, given the nature of greed in the war it'd only make sense those with any sense [so to speak x'D] left would be few in number.

I'd also say that within the Light-faction, maybe even rarely in the Dark one (Riku- and Terra-like people), there were some genuinely good people, but these obviously weren't in the higher up hierachy of the command structure in either faction since if such people would have been in charge the war would not have escalated so far as it originally did.
I guess the 2% value of "good" people would apply more to these big factions, lol.

Even if they got to such hierarchy I doubt the armies would've obeyed them. xD

On that topic I am even wondering if we need to have that all explained. Fantasy universes really should keep some mysteries for themselves at all times and to be frank, while I certainly want most of the original characters to be retained in the new saga, especially our three main trios, the actual premise and background of the story should be completely fresh. It can still involve Kingdom Hearts itself somehow, but let the Keyblade War be and focus on some other aspect of the universe, the idea of re-creating the Keyblade War and destroy the universe in order to recreate it yourself or to explore its secrets should disappear together with Xehanort.

To be perfectly honest I hope it does remain a mystery, I just like speculating on the fractions and such mentioned. =3
I wasn't even happy to have Roxas' backstory to be explained so deeply. [days]

Well, he really travelled long and far during his mid-years after he left Land of Departure and when looking at his reports he found Ventus rather late in his life. The Vanitas incident took place four years before BBS itself and since Ven was 10/11years old at that time I doubt MX had him as an apprentice longer than at most two years by then.
If he had not any apprentices before Ven he would be totally free to do whatever he likes, and I bet someone like Xehanort was skimming through every ancient library he could find in every world he visited. Then there's the things you mention, he could have met other Keyblade Masters with access to classified knowledge, among them possibly some with less strict morals as Eraqus or even Yen Sid have or he could also have pulled an Indiana Jones/Lara Croft and roam through old ruins and forgotten temples to unearth knowledge that may have been even forgotten by most of the current Keyblade Masters.
Of course he may have done also a mix of all this. ;P

Given Xehanorts boundless and outright destructive desire to learn I'd say it was a mix of all the above with things we dont even know of mixed in.

It may even be that there were fail-safe mechanisms but those were simply overloaded over time. The breakdown of the walls of the worlds allowed Heartless to enter them at will (and exposed their Keyholes and thus their hearts), but even before that Xehanort and Ansem's apprentices were creating artificial Heartless en masse in their experiments. These didn't need to cross over from the RoD to the RoL like the Purebloods to cause havoc so they could already gnaw away at the walls of the other worlds from the lanes between. Xehanort opening the door in RG may have been just the last push which finally brought the already weakened structure down.
Then there is of course also Maleficent and her Heartless Army to take into account. Maleficent attacked several worlds and actually started to kidnap the seven Princesses starting with Aurora when she destroyed her own world (which wasn't actively instigated by Xehanort, but by Maleficent herself). Since the seven Princesses are what keep the RoL stable as a replacement of the true KH, I could imagine with each Princess that got lost the defenses of the worlds and the whole "security-system" got weaker.

Highly plausible, perhaps one could look at Xehanorts entire scheme, starting from a couples years before bbs up till before radiant garden fell as him slowly but surely taking down the very system he was trained to guard.

Also just thought of it after you said it but I guess the keyholes could be seen as a fail-safe. After all even when the walls fell, if a keyblade wielder of any level in training, could seal them and protect them from harm indefinitely.

Keeping all that above in mind while also assuming that LoD was a central piece as well, whatever role Land of Departure may play in the whole system was as such already taken out by Master Xehanort wisely beforehand.

Eraqus certainly views it as special, which is backed up by generations of "true successors" spanning form the end of the war itself (since it would be around that time the world was formed as with any other) till bbs as well as the notable special Masters Keeper, so that's most likely true. It' may have even been the first stone to tear down that would allow the rest to follow.

 

[MizuMikomi]

I don't have a wall of text to add or anything, but I was considering how "Sora is the link between many hearts" and it gave me the idea that maybe Sora is the "Key to Return hearts" not a physical key, but the only person who can actually return a lost heart. I honestly do not believe this "Key" will be physical, especially with Sora apparently not being aware of its form. What better cliche for there to be than Sora to find out that he is what he has been looking for all along? Only he has the power to return the heart of others from...wherever they may be.

It would fit with Nomura's whole idea of wanting Sora to be relateable to the players, as this would make Sora special in a sense...but not too special or far out there for him to lose that characteristic. I'll admit that this is probably, and most likely, highly improbable. Although, that is to be expected, as it was just a passing thought.

 

[gosoxtim]

i have a idea if the 13 darkness and seven lights make the x-blade then do you think the seven lights and seven princess of heart make the key to return hearts whatever it is?

 

[Tempus]

There's something Xehanort says to Eraqus during their confrontation flashback in BBS. "We know so little about the Keyblade War, only that it was just the beginning. Amidst that crisis a precious light was found...."
I've wondered for awhile what that meant, there's really been nothing so far that fits that description. Maybe the Key to Return Hearts is that precious light? Something restored the worlds and peoples hearts, did it return them from the darkness that they had fallen into? And guess what? KH:X will have story elements from the keyblade war that affect the whole arc....guess we'll see!

 

[ChibiHearts249]

The most likely scenario is the the KtRH IS Sora. We can't avoid this possible occurence. However, to put a twist in things; add a circumstance. I was not expecting the events in 3D to take the turn they did. First playing KH, I wasn't expecting a HEARTLESS to be pulling all the strings, since they are merely tools for the bad guys to USE most of the time.

These games have their twists and turns; surprises that define each game and carry the story ever-onward. So Sora simply being "the key," is a very well-known thing. He may or may NOT be the KtRH, who knows? I think it's just TOO obvious. There's gotta be a catch, a circumstance of somekind.

 

[Gram]

There's something Xehanort says to Eraqus during their confrontation flashback in BBS. "We know so little about the Keyblade War, only that it was just the beginning. Amidst that crisis a precious light was found...."
I've wondered for awhile what that meant, there's really been nothing so far that fits that description. Maybe the Key to Return Hearts is that precious light? Something restored the worlds and peoples hearts, did it return them from the darkness that they had fallen into? And guess what? KH:X will have story elements from the keyblade war that affect the whole arc....guess we'll see!

I think he was referring to the fabled 'light within children's hearts' though those two could be very well one in the same thing or they both could've performed the same result. So very plausible theory. =]

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

The most likely scenario is the the KtRH IS Sora. We can't avoid this possible occurence. However, to put a twist in things; add a circumstance. I was not expecting the events in 3D to take the turn they did. First playing KH, I wasn't expecting a HEARTLESS to be pulling all the strings, since they are merely tools for the bad guys to USE most of the time.

These games have their twists and turns; surprises that define each game and carry the story ever-onward. So Sora simply being "the key," is a very well-known thing. He may or may NOT be the KtRH, who knows? I think it's just TOO obvious. There's gotta be a catch, a circumstance of somekind.

As long as the catch is not singing I'm fine if Sora is the KtRH. It is possible that the Key to Return Hearts involves some kind of ritual, either to summon it or use it. Maybe you have to melt down a few people? It would be funny if the KtRH isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

 

[Changer]

As long as the catch is not singing I'm fine if Sora is the KtRH. It is possible that the Key to Return Hearts involves some kind of ritual, either to summon it or use it. Maybe you have to melt down a few people? It would be funny if the KtRH isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

You're last sentence made me think of the precursors in Jak 3. Good times.