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If you had to erase one character from existence entirely, who would you choose?



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SuperNova

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Besides the obvious "Xion has served her purpose." I am going to have to go with Axel.

I like Axel/Lea. But he has served his purpose already, he should have never had a keyblade or be revived, and his death was tragic in KH2. But no, they had to bring him back as a comedic relief for DDD/KH3 and now he has Subject X to attach himself too.

Death holds no weight in KH, and Axel is great evidence of that.
 

MrFranklin95

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Yozora. Which is weird to say because we know nothing about his character, so it's not that obviously. I just hate the fact that he looks like Riku.

Yes. It bothers me that much. The fact that Noruma put all this effort and secrecy into the inclusion of this character and yet couldn't be bothered to give him a different design. Hell, apparently that's not even his real design, so what was the point? Like, you wonder why every fan iteration I've seen of him gave him brown hair instead of white because... duh.

Like hell, I'm still bothered he never gave Roxas his own body (almost like he's forming his own identity... ya know, the entire point of his character) and instead made a forced joke with Ventus that was more awkward then funny.

Other then that... I can't think of any character I would remove at all because every character in the series plays at least a significant role in some shape or form (Yes, even Xion. F**king fight me)
 

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Yes. It bothers me that much. The fact that Noruma put all this effort and secrecy into the inclusion of this character and yet couldn't be bothered to give him a different design. Hell, apparently that's not even his real design, so what was the point? Like, you wonder why every fan iteration I've seen of him gave him brown hair instead of white because... duh.
This post is the first I'm hearing of people giving Yozora different color hair.
 

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What was so critical about Xion's existence? I'm curious how KHDays and KH3 wouldn't have played out the way they did if Xion didn't exist.
Oh boy... I opened the can didn't I?

She's half the reason Roxas left and she's entirely the reason he ended up how he did in KH2, during a crucial scene we never go more in-depth with in KH2. And, call me crazy, I would like to have more of a reason as to why Roxas was in TWTNW after he supposedly left or why Roxas and Riku were even fighting in the first place.

"He wanted to meet Sora"

First off, taking 358/2 Days out of it, how would Roxas even know where Sora was at that point? He would have no available resources or any point of origin to look other then Destiny Islands, a bunch of Disney worlds, and Radiant Garden. Twilight Town at that point was completely erased from Sora's memory, so Roxas' would have no access to that memory and Sora was nowhere near TWTNW; Namine and DiZ kept him hidden for an entire year from The Organization who have unlimited tech and resources. So if THEY couldn't find him, how would Roxas with much, MUCH less? So Roxas was purposely looking in the wrong world, a world he can't go back too, for Sora because .... ?

"He was looking for Riku so he could find where Sora was"

What was he gonna do, beat it out of Riku? Riku would have told him nothing regardless and Roxas would've been smart enough to realize that if that was his actual goal and thinking that beating it out of him would influence him further would just be stupid on his part. And this is the moment where I part ways with people on this because the information we have on Roxas' past in KH2 and the way he acts in flashbacks, I'm sorry, isn't enough for me to think he'd do something as stupid and extremely impulsive as this without something else influencing his irrational decision to go to a world that he has no reason to go back and where he would likely be killed. Yeah, he was pissed off they lied but not enough to make a stupid decision to go back to the one place and people he escaped from, is actively being hunted by, and would be killed by if he came back.

Hell, he was going to slash Riku's face anyway when he was ass first on the floor, totally defeated. That would've been the perfect opportunity to ask some questions but nah, it's just "Shut up" and that would've been the end of the fight if Riku hadn't parryed him at the last minute. In fact, Roxas in that whole scene never seemed intent on finding Sora at all or even stopping for a moment and talking to Riku if you just judge him on his actions in that whole scene. He never mentions Sora at all or any reason as to why he's fighting Riku at all other then maybe a re-match(which itself isnt even entirely clear). In fact, He was way more focused on just killing Riku lol "how many times do I have to beat you" Hell, Riku was the one asking the questions; questions he should've already known, even if 358/2 didn't exist. It makes way more sense and its way more emotionally satisfying if Roxas had a more emotional and irrational reason for doing what he does at that moment in KH2 because for all intents and purposes, what Roxas was doing was completely irrational and didn't make any sense, even if he was just searching for Sora. It's a pretty stupid way of going about ot and not in a way that would be true to his character unless there was more behind it. A bunch of vague memories of a person you barely know doesn't justify going to a place (a place that person based on those memories would not logically be and I feel like Roxas would figure that out) where you will be killed by people clearly stronger then you, including its leader and boy who is clearly holding back his dark power; which is how Roxas lost the fight.


The fight with Riku doesn't make sense without 358/2 Days. He left The Organization and while it makes sense that he go find Sora, given all the information we have at that point, why would Roxas go to the one world where Sora definately isnt (and he would at least know that) and if it's to find Riku, why would he be fighting him instead of talking to him since he doesn't know and wouldn't know Riku's true intentions unless he can read his mind. And furthermore, he has no idea who Riku even is, so why would be looking for him at all and why we assume he'd be at the one place where Sora more then likely isn't. But now we understand why because without 358/2 Days, the lead up to that scene after Roxas leaves Axel makes no sense from Roxas' perspective and it makes him look like an absolute idiot for going back to the one world where Axel specifically says, "you can't turn your back on the Organization. You get on their bad side and they'll destroy you" so why in God's name is he going back if he has no logical reason too? It makes Roxas look like a moron, which he isn't because if he was, he wouldn't have caught on to the Organization and Axel lying to him. Yeah he's a bit impulsive but he's not an idiot seeking a death wish. And that reason was thinking he could defeat Xenmas, open Kingdom Hearts (which he has no reason to think he can), bring Xion back, and thinking everything would be okay at that point, which it wouldn't be. But you understand why he's thinking this way because Xion's death was the logical breaking point for him. He was not thinking clearly at all and that makes more emotional sense then him just going guns blazing for a reason that even he wouldn't be able to rationalize in his own head if there wasn't some sort of push to the edge to make him desperately believe it; to the point where he'd put his own life in danger. What, is he going to kill himself finding Sora? Roxas from the beginning has always fought for his own independence, identity, and his own life. That's the entire point of his character. He even fought Sora to do so in a winner take all situation, a last ditch effort. What, he just fought Sora to test his strength? No, he wanted see who was top dog and when Sora won, he accepted it because he has no other option at that point. So I doubt finding Sora was enough of a reason for him to get himself stupidly killed by either Riku or Xemnas without some sort of plan; because he wasn't behaving like an angry, blood thirsty, emotionally erratic, irrational moron at that point when he left Axel for the final time. In fact, he was fairly calm and content with leaving The Organization and seeking out a different path. Again, Roxas is not an idiot but he is easily inflienced by the people he cares about; especially if one of them is killed unjusticely and if another one of them kept lying to him to point where he logically couldn't trust him anymore.

Xion is pretty crucial to his character for that reason alone; in fact, he has way more of a reason to distrust the Organization given the way they treat her and the fact that throughout, Roxas grew more and more as person with his own emotions and thoughts along with Xion. She was someone Roxas could speak and relate too about his emotions that he couldnt ALWAYS do with Axel for obvious reasons. But regardless, Roxas ends up in the place he is in KH2 pretty much due to his relationship with Xion AND Axel and their own individual arcs that relate back his own personal journey. How is any of that pointless?

They both contribute to his emotional development from two different perspectives; which is what moves the plot.

"But axel could've filled the same role"

No, he couldn't have because Roxas' relationship to Axel compared to Xion is entirely different and that's pretty clear throughout the game. She serves a different motivation and perspective for him that Axel can't fulfill because Axel is in an entirely different position with a completely different mindset. So at that point, especially during Roxas' development, Xion's arc and POV contributes to Roxas' journey just as much as Axel's but for a reason that Axel can't completely understand because Axel really doesnt care as much about his past as Roxas and Xion do and all wants to do is protect them both, even if it's from the truth; you would you have to change his entire character and his motivation for doing what he does. Xion has a completely different mindset and personality then Axel does. That's not even considering the fact that Axel is a certain position of power and authority, which is why Roxas and Xion grew to distrust him and why Axel feels conflicted in the way he is because he uses that power to protect what he has left to care about since Saix, from his perspective, has become a different person in his eyes. And, also, realistically, there's only so much Axel could do. Its a lose-lose situation for everyone and that's the point of the entire story.

And now, the obvious deflect that people give me is that "well, something else could've made Roxas do that" and "thats all we needed as a explanation in KH2"

first off, it isn't and secondly... so what? That's not an argument, that just a hypothetical. The writers could've came up with anything to justify that scene and go more depth with Roxas' decision. They chose to create Xion... so what's the problem here? That she was added after the fact? So what? If you think she's written badly, fair enough but to call her pointless just isn't true by the time we get to the end and we see how it all goes together. You can make that same case for Apprentice Xehanort, which I know a lot of people do but I even argue for him too. Hypothetically, his character didn't need to exist. Ansem could've have been solely one character and that was it but they decided to add more depth to the story and give it more weight to what actually happened and it added a lot more to the emotional crux of the narrative and it's one of the only things KH2's story does right. I'm glad they did it. And it's the same with Xion.

"But there was no reason for Xion to be a 14th member since they already had Roxas"

It was explained in-game that Xion was created as a failsafe incase Roxas fell through or went rogue. What, did you think Xenmas sent Xion after Roxas TWICE just cause? No, Xenmas' mindset was clear from the beginning. In case Roxas falls through for whatever reason, Xion is the obvious backup. The fact that she's still connected to Sora in anyway is just icing on the cake for them. So again, she isn't pointless in that sense either. And hell, given everything we've seen in KH2, with 358/2 in mind, they made the right call to use Xion as a backup because Roxas would've logically left them or ended up in another coma. They gave a pretty logical conclusion in the story that's pretty acceptable, even more considering the fact that Xion was actively draining Roxas' powers, so if Xion didnt do what she did, Roxas would've been a loose end anyway (and no, before someone uses that against me, Roxas eventually leaving anyway without Xion wouldn't have justify his actions after the fact which, again, make no logical sense unless he was pushed to make a stupid decision to risk his own life to go somewhere he doesnt need to go back too) She might've as well have saved his life by giving up her own needs and desires to set things right.

Look, I just don't get this mindset of a character being pointless when they clearly add some dimension to the story just because they were added later on. KH isn't even the only story that has done this. It just feels like scapegoating simply because you don't happen to like a character.

A pointless character means they dont contribute to the plot and/or the emotional weight of the story that moves the plot foward in way that makes sense and that's simply not true for most of these characters. Now, you don't have to like them or think it's written well, thats perfectly fine, but to say they're pointless and don't add anything isn't true... in my opinion, anyway. I'm not saying every character does because there are pointless characters in this story that really don't add anything *cough*Maleficent*cough*

And to play Devil's advocate, it could be the same with Yozora. His character from the beginning has always rubbed me the wrong way but ya know what? If he's written well into the story, or they at least come up with some emotional weight to why he's there that makes logical sense, then all that is forgiven. If he adds to the plot, whether internally and externally, even if I still don't like him, then fine. I rag on him a lot, because his inclusion on the surface feels really lazy to me and he definately feels like a pointless character that has no reason to be there but he could very well become a great character depending on what he contributes and what relationship he has to Sora and co. It's all in the writing and the writing in 358/2 days is pretty damn solid compared to some stories in KH. I have gripes about the story of KH but one I never had is the OC characters never contributing to the plot at all. Even in a small way or a big way, every character has had a role that has moved the plot forward or even recontexulizes scenes and events. So, yes, you can not like Xion's character, I'm not forcing anyone too, but to say she's pointless feels dishonest to me.

KH3 on the other hand... yeah, no, she's entirely pointless and the way she comes back is really, REALLY stupid. But so is everyone else in the game that isn't named Sora. They are so useless, they don't even get to resolve their own arcs lol but that's mostly a problem with KH3 itself and even DDD to some extent.
 
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SweetYetSalty

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Oh boy... I opened the can didn't I?

She's half the reason Roxas left and she's entirely the reason he ended up how he did in KH2, during a crucial scene we never go more in-depth with in KH2. And, call me crazy, I would like to have more of a reason as to why Roxas was in TWTNW after he supposedly left or why Roxas and Riku were even fighting in the first place.

"He wanted to meet Sora"

First off, taking 358/2 Days out of it, how would Roxas even know where Sora was at that point? He would have no available resources or any point of origin to look other then Destiny Islands, a bunch of Disney worlds, and Radiant Garden. Twilight Town at that point was completely erased from Sora's memory, so Roxas' would have no access to that memory and Sora was nowhere near TWTNW; Namine and DiZ kept him hidden for an entire year from The Organization who have unlimited tech and resources. So if THEY couldn't find him, how would Roxas with much, MUCH less? So Roxas was purposely looking in the wrong world, a world he can't go back too, for Sora because .... ?

"He was looking for Riku so he could find where Sora was"

What was he gonna do, beat it out of Riku? Riku would have told him nothing regardless and Roxas would've been smart enough to realize that if that was his actual goal and thinking that beating it out of him would influence him further would just be stupid on his part. And this is the moment where I part ways with people on this because the information we have on Roxas' past in KH2 and the way he acts in flashbacks, I'm sorry, isn't enough for me to think he'd do something as stupid and extremely impulsive as this without something else influencing his irrational decision to go to a world that he has no reason to go back and where he would likely be killed. Yeah, he was pissed off they lied but not enough to make a stupid decision to go back to the one place and people he escaped from, is actively being hunted by, and would be killed by if he came back.

Hell, he was going to slash Riku's face anyway when he was ass first on the floor, totally defeated. That would've been the perfect opportunity to ask some questions but nah, it's just "Shut up" and that would've been the end of the fight if Riku hadn't parryed him at the last minute. In fact, Roxas in that whole scene never seemed intent on finding Sora at all or even stopping for a moment and talking to Riku if you just judge him on his actions in that whole scene. He never mentions Sora at all or any reason as to why he's fighting Riku at all other then maybe a re-match(which itself isnt even entirely clear). In fact, He was way more focused on just killing Riku lol "how many times do I have to beat you" Hell, Riku was the one asking the questions; questions he should've already known, even if 358/2 didn't exist. It makes way more sense and its way more emotionally satisfying if Roxas had a more emotional and irrational reason for doing what he does at that moment in KH2 because for all intents and purposes, what Roxas was doing was completely irrational and didn't make any sense, even if he was just searching for Sora. It's a pretty stupid way of going about ot and not in a way that would be true to his character unless there was more behind it. A bunch of vague memories of a person you barely know doesn't justify going to a place (a place that person based on those memories would not logically be and I feel like Roxas would figure that out) where you will be killed by people clearly stronger then you, including its leader and boy who is clearly holding back his dark power; which is how Roxas lost the fight.


The fight with Riku doesn't make sense without 358/2 Days. He left The Organization and while it makes sense that he go find Sora, given all the information we have at that point, why would Roxas go to the one world where Sora definately isnt (and he would at least know that) and if it's to find Riku, why would he be fighting him instead of talking to him since he doesn't know and wouldn't know Riku's true intentions unless he can read his mind. And furthermore, he has no idea who Riku even is, so why would be looking for him at all and why we assume he'd be at the one place where Sora more then likely isn't. But now we understand why because without 358/2 Days, the lead up to that scene after Roxas leaves Axel makes no sense from Roxas' perspective and it makes him look like an absolute idiot for going back to the one world where Axel specifically says, "you can't turn your back on the Organization. You get on their bad side and they'll destroy you" so why in God's name is he going back if he has no logical reason too? It makes Roxas look like a moron, which he isn't because if he was, he wouldn't have caught on to the Organization and Axel lying to him. Yeah he's a bit impulsive but he's not an idiot seeking a death wish. And that reason was thinking he could defeat Xenmas, open Kingdom Hearts (which he has no reason to think he can), bring Xion back, and thinking everything would be okay at that point, which it wouldn't be. But you understand why he's thinking this way because Xion's death was the logical breaking point for him. He was not thinking clearly at all and that makes more emotional sense then him just going guns blazing for a reason that even he wouldn't be able to rationalize in his own head if there wasn't some sort of push to the edge to make him desperately believe it; to the point where he'd put his own life in danger. What, is he going to kill himself finding Sora? Roxas from the beginning has always fought for his own independence, identity, and his own life. That's the entire point of his character. He even fought Sora to do so in a winner take all situation, a last ditch effort. What, he just fought Sora to test his strength? No, he wanted see who was top dog and when Sora won, he accepted it because he has no other option at that point. So I doubt finding Sora was enough of a reason for him to get himself stupidly killed by either Riku or Xemnas without some sort of plan; because he wasn't behaving like an angry, blood thirsty, emotionally erratic, irrational moron at that point when he left Axel for the final time. In fact, he was fairly calm and content with leaving The Organization and seeking out a different path. Again, Roxas is not an idiot but he is easily inflienced by the people he cares about; especially if one of them is killed unjusticely and if another one of them kept lying to him to point where he logically couldn't trust him anymore.

Xion is pretty crucial to his character for that reason alone; in fact, he has way more of a reason to distrust the Organization given the way they treat her and the fact that throughout, Roxas grew more and more as person with his own emotions and thoughts along with Xion. She was someone Roxas could speak and relate too about his emotions that he couldnt ALWAYS do with Axel for obvious reasons. But regardless, Roxas ends up in the place he is in KH2 pretty much due to his relationship with Xion AND Axel and their own individual arcs that relate back his own personal journey. How is any of that pointless?

They both contribute to his emotional development from two different perspectives; which is what moves the plot.

"But axel could've filled the same role"

No, he couldn't have because Roxas' relationship to Axel compared to Xion is entirely different and that's pretty clear throughout the game. She serves a different motivation and perspective for him that Axel can't fulfill because Axel is in an entirely different position with a completely different mindset. So at that point, especially during Roxas' development, Xion's arc and POV contributes to Roxas' journey just as much as Axel's but for a reason that Axel can't completely understand because Axel really doesnt care as much about his past as Roxas and Xion do and all wants to do is protect them both, even if it's from the truth; you would you have to change his entire character and his motivation for doing what he does. Xion has a completely different mindset and personality then Axel does. That's not even considering the fact that Axel is a certain position of power and authority, which is why Roxas and Xion grew to distrust him and why Axel feels conflicted in the way he is because he uses that power to protect what he has left to care about since Saix, from his perspective, has become a different person in his eyes. And, also, realistically, there's only so much Axel could do. Its a lose-lose situation for everyone and that's the point of the entire story.

And now, the obvious deflect that people give me is that "well, something else could've made Roxas do that" and "thats all we needed as a explanation in KH2"

first off, it isn't and secondly... so what? That's not an argument, that just a hypothetical. The writers could've came up with anything to justify that scene and go more depth with Roxas' decision. They chose to create Xion... so what's the problem here? That she was added after the fact? So what? If you think she's written badly, fair enough but to call her pointless just isn't true by the time we get to the end and we see how it all goes together. You can make that same case for Apprentice Xehanort, which I know a lot of people do but I even argue for him too. Hypothetically, his character didn't need to exist. Ansem could've have been solely one character and that was it but they decided to add more depth to the story and give it more weight to what actually happened and it added a lot more to the emotional crux of the narrative and it's one of the only things KH2's story does right. I'm glad they did it. And it's the same with Xion.

"But there was no reason for Xion to be a 14th member since they already had Roxas"

It was explained in-game that Xion was created as a failsafe incase Roxas fell through or went rogue. What, did you think Xenmas sent Xion after Roxas TWICE just cause? No, Xenmas' mindset was clear from the beginning. In case Roxas falls through for whatever reason, Xion is the obvious backup. The fact that she's still connected to Sora in anyway is just icing on the cake for them. So again, she isn't pointless in that sense either. And hell, given everything we've seen in KH2, with 358/2 in mind, they made the right call to use Xion as a backup because Roxas would've logically left them or ended up in another coma. They gave a pretty logical conclusion in the story that's pretty acceptable, even more considering the fact that Xion was actively draining Roxas' powers, so if Xion didnt do what she did, Roxas would've been a loose end anyway (and no, before someone uses that against me, Roxas eventually leaving anyway without Xion wouldn't have justify his actions after the fact which, again, make no logical sense unless he was pushed to make a stupid decision to risk his own life to go somewhere he doesnt need to go back too) She might've as well have saved his life by giving up her own needs and desires to set things right.

Look, I just don't get this mindset of a character being pointless when they clearly add some dimension to the story just because they were added later on. KH isn't even the only story that has done this. It just feels like scapegoating simply because you don't happen to like a character.

A pointless character means they dont contribute to the plot and/or the emotional weight of the story that moves the plot foward in way that makes sense and that's simply not true for most of these characters. Now, you don't have to like them or think it's written well, thats perfectly fine, but to say they're pointless and don't add anything isn't true... in my opinion, anyway. I'm not saying every character does because there are pointless characters in this story that really don't add anything *cough*Maleficent*cough*

And to play Devil's advocate, it could be the same with Yozora. His character from the beginning has always rubbed me the wrong way but ya know what? If he's written well into the story, or they at least come up with some emotional weight to why he's there that makes logical sense, then all that is forgiven. If he adds to the plot, whether internally and externally, even if I still don't like him, then fine. I rag on him a lot, because his inclusion on the surface feels really lazy to me and he definately feels like a pointless character that has no reason to be there but he could very well become a great character depending on what he contributes and what relationship he has to Sora and co. It's all in the writing and the writing in 358/2 days is pretty damn solid compared to some stories in KH. I have gripes about the story of KH but one I never had is the OC characters never contributing to the plot at all. Even in a small way or a big way, every character has had a role that has moved the plot forward or even recontexulizes scenes and events. So, yes, you can not like Xion's character, I'm not forcing anyone too, but to say she's pointless feels dishonest to me.

KH3 on the other hand... yeah, no, she's entirely pointless and the way she comes back is really, REALLY stupid. But so is everyone else in the game that isn't named Sora. They are so useless, they don't even get to resolve their own arcs lol but that's mostly a problem with KH3 itself and even DDD to some extent.
This. Honestly Xion, the 'pointless retcon character' served more of a purpose in the Organization and the story then characters like Zexion, Lexaeus, Larxene, Demyx, and Luxord. And I love the latter three, but seriously why are they immune to this complaint? Look how long it took Luxord to actual be important.

There's nothing wrong with hating or not liking Xion, hey more power to you. But I feel she gets unfair criticism and singled out when literally every character after KH1 can fit those same criticisms but rarely get called out on. I know it comes down to preference and personal bias but that doesn't make these attacks any less unfair.

I could make a list on why Roxas, Namine, Terra, Ventus, and Vanitas don't need to exist either as the lore beforehand ran smoothly without them. I won't do that because I'm glad all these characters exist. Roxas is my favorite character and has my favorite story, despite how little impact it has on the overall series. And I've really grown to love and appreciate Terra and Ventus. I don't want to get rid of any of these characters. I want to see them all grow and continue.

One other thing. I love that Xion gets flack for joining Axel and Roxas friendship group and is 'unneeded' and 'unwanted' in game series about friendship and making new friends.
 

disney233

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This. Honestly Xion, the 'pointless retcon character' served more of a purpose in the Organization and the story then characters like Zexion, Lexaeus, Larxene, Demyx, and Luxord. And I love the latter three, but seriously why are they immune to this complaint? Look how long it took Luxord to actual be important.
If it wasn't for the ONE part in this thread I'd thanos snappped just about everyone in the Organization. Especially in 3....where it's literally just the same cast.
 

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He gets the snot kicked out of him in KH2 and decides to use his "rematch" to do things right. What is loathsome about it?
His motivations are underdeveloped, lack screen time and don't make sense and his mental and physical torture of Roxas, Axel and Xion is practically swept under the rug. Compared to Riku's redemption, the difference in writing quality is night and day.
 

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All of the Disney characters, because they feel like they are not a part of the overall KH narrative anymore.
 

Cumguardian69

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His motivations are underdeveloped, lack screen time and don't make sense and his mental and physical torture of Roxas, Axel and Xion is practically swept under the rug. Compared to Riku's redemption, the difference in writing quality is night and day.
But that's a fault of KH3 in general, not of Saix. KH3 (and its sisters KHX/UX/XBC/DR/VR) love(d) to drop dripfeed content that goes nowhere, with fans lapping all of it up as "pOteNtiALLy IntEresTING". Saix was underdeveloped, yes, but so was Sora's fear of losing his friends that resulted in team light getting blasted the first go around, as well as the time reset running precisely counter to what YX said in KHDDD, as well as Aqua having PtSd from the ROD, and on and on. Terranort moving so HAYAI that nobody could react, Subject X and nameless star were both afterthoughts. Kairi studying the Keyblade to be a wielder only to get dropped and glassed. So on and so forth.

Saix developing motivations that run counter to his portrayal in Days/KH2 is not a bad thing in and of itself. I understand that he wasn't present for like...any of KH3, now that I think about it, but don't blame him for bad writing/scenario/dialogue.
 

Eonstar890

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Honestly? Mickey Mouse himself. His inclusion in the series has been pretty lackluster after KH2. The mystery of him was nice in KH1 and he had some good moments in KH2. But now a days he just makes the more serious moments feel much less serious with that cheery little voice and obviously him ignoring Aquas existence for ten years simply didn’t make sense. In fact almost all of his decisions throughout the series have been very illogical.

Like there was no reason for him to go to the RoD by himself in KH1. I still don’t understand what he was trying to do during the beginning of KH2 before the mid game. And in DDD and KH3 he has served more as an echo chamber for Yen Sid. Oh and coded... yeah no. Less focus on Mickey and more on the OC please.
 

*TwilightNight*

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And now, the obvious deflect that people give me is that "well, something else could've made Roxas do that" and "thats all we needed as a explanation in KH2"

first off, it isn't and secondly... so what? That's not an argument, that just a hypothetical. The writers could've came up with anything to justify that scene and go more depth with Roxas' decision. They chose to create Xion... so what's the problem here? That she was added after the fact? So what?
Which makes Xion easily replaceable, erasable, and unessential. That very fact makes her dispensable, period. Your entire argument is based on what happened in 358/2 Days with Xion there and that, really, you just liked what Xion added to the theme (which is entirely based on opinion rather than actual use). That does not make Xion necessary. There is a reason I posted that interview with Nomura having a canon reason for Roxas leaving before it got retconned. Xion's entire existence is tied with Roxas'. If the entire point of your creation is to give one character motivation to leave (and a motivation that was aleady given in the first place - being plagued by Sora's memories and ultimately wanting to figure out why) rather than the overarching plot, you're needless. Especially if that one character begins and ends in KHII. There's suspicion that Riku's role might have been bigger, considering Nomura had also said he wanted to explore that year with Riku and Mickey. Roxas and Riku fought "twice" (while also seemingly knowing each other, Roxas wouldn't have offered him a Keyblade in that secret ending otherwise), which got muddled thanks to 358/2 Days.

358/2 Days as a game didn't need to exist to be honest. A person can truly make an argument for that. KHII came first. No matter what occurred in the year between that and KHI, the result would have been the same - Roxas resigns from Organization XIII. What if Roxas or Axel or the Organization wasn't popular enough to get a game for themselves, then what? Would it make a difference with that Roxas decided? Would it cause a tremor to the overall series? Would fans be bothered that they didn't have an emotional punch to the gut that they didn't need? And I would say some fans, not all with that emotional punch to the gut. I was personally glad it was over. Would SweetYetSalty not liking Roxas with only KHII make a dent to Roxas being hugely popular and loved because of KHII? No. Because it's a foregone conclusion. Sora couldn't wake up until Roxas returned regardless of whether or not Xion existed. So she doesn't even get that either.

So if a user is going to make a thread asking what character would one pick to be erased, don't get up in arms because people choose Xion. There's a lot of incredibly strong basis for it. Xion's easy pickings. She could be erased and nothing would go wrong or change whatsoever. There's no legitimate reason why she's required at all, so there's no point having her.

-------------------------

That ends that. Let's get to the more subjective part -

The plot caves in itself to justify Xion. Xemnas does absolutely nothing while Xion disappears for days on end, Diz wouldn't have waited an entire year to do anything. What kind of dumb ass villain lets a pawn go free willy nilly for a month? It's unfathomable. Diz and Xemnas being antagonistic to one another to get a hold of Roxas would have made way more sense, and it would have also clarified Riku's involvement. Xion is dying in that glittery death of hers, and somehow (i.e. convenience), all she could instruct Roxas to do is "free Kingdom Hearts" instead of "find Sora". Only to then change her mind in the Deep Dive scene because now characters can suddenly...speak and control a Keyblade because it ties to "memory" in its name. Let's not get to the concept that she's Sora's/Roxas' replica (both males) but looks like Kairi cause "memories". Because "girl" and "trio". Or that there was apparently a "14th" in a group named for its thirteen members. So she counts but doesn't count. I mean, if you're going to break down the points of others, mention how much more nonsensical shit and complication was added with Xion's existence to something as simple as Axel being surprised Roxas was using two Keyblades (which was Ventus' in the end, lol) and what relationship Riku had with Roxas/what was going on in that fight from KHII. That's all the questions the fanbase had about what went on with Roxas. That was all. Didn't need an entire damn game.
 
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Absent

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Oh boy... I opened the can didn't I?

She's half the reason Roxas left and she's entirely the reason he ended up how he did in KH2, during a crucial scene we never go more in-depth with in KH2. And, call me crazy, I would like to have more of a reason as to why Roxas was in TWTNW after he supposedly left or why Roxas and Riku were even fighting in the first place.

"He wanted to meet Sora"

First off, taking 358/2 Days out of it, how would Roxas even know where Sora was at that point? He would have no available resources or any point of origin to look other then Destiny Islands, a bunch of Disney worlds, and Radiant Garden. Twilight Town at that point was completely erased from Sora's memory, so Roxas' would have no access to that memory and Sora was nowhere near TWTNW; Namine and DiZ kept him hidden for an entire year from The Organization who have unlimited tech and resources. So if THEY couldn't find him, how would Roxas with much, MUCH less? So Roxas was purposely looking in the wrong world, a world he can't go back too, for Sora because .... ?

"He was looking for Riku so he could find where Sora was"

What was he gonna do, beat it out of Riku? Riku would have told him nothing regardless and Roxas would've been smart enough to realize that if that was his actual goal and thinking that beating it out of him would influence him further would just be stupid on his part. And this is the moment where I part ways with people on this because the information we have on Roxas' past in KH2 and the way he acts in flashbacks, I'm sorry, isn't enough for me to think he'd do something as stupid and extremely impulsive as this without something else influencing his irrational decision to go to a world that he has no reason to go back and where he would likely be killed. Yeah, he was pissed off they lied but not enough to make a stupid decision to go back to the one place and people he escaped from, is actively being hunted by, and would be killed by if he came back.

Hell, he was going to slash Riku's face anyway when he was ass first on the floor, totally defeated. That would've been the perfect opportunity to ask some questions but nah, it's just "Shut up" and that would've been the end of the fight if Riku hadn't parryed him at the last minute. In fact, Roxas in that whole scene never seemed intent on finding Sora at all or even stopping for a moment and talking to Riku if you just judge him on his actions in that whole scene. He never mentions Sora at all or any reason as to why he's fighting Riku at all other then maybe a re-match(which itself isnt even entirely clear). In fact, He was way more focused on just killing Riku lol "how many times do I have to beat you" Hell, Riku was the one asking the questions; questions he should've already known, even if 358/2 didn't exist. It makes way more sense and its way more emotionally satisfying if Roxas had a more emotional and irrational reason for doing what he does at that moment in KH2 because for all intents and purposes, what Roxas was doing was completely irrational and didn't make any sense, even if he was just searching for Sora. It's a pretty stupid way of going about ot and not in a way that would be true to his character unless there was more behind it. A bunch of vague memories of a person you barely know doesn't justify going to a place (a place that person based on those memories would not logically be and I feel like Roxas would figure that out) where you will be killed by people clearly stronger then you, including its leader and boy who is clearly holding back his dark power; which is how Roxas lost the fight.


The fight with Riku doesn't make sense without 358/2 Days. He left The Organization and while it makes sense that he go find Sora, given all the information we have at that point, why would Roxas go to the one world where Sora definately isnt (and he would at least know that) and if it's to find Riku, why would he be fighting him instead of talking to him since he doesn't know and wouldn't know Riku's true intentions unless he can read his mind. And furthermore, he has no idea who Riku even is, so why would be looking for him at all and why we assume he'd be at the one place where Sora more then likely isn't. But now we understand why because without 358/2 Days, the lead up to that scene after Roxas leaves Axel makes no sense from Roxas' perspective and it makes him look like an absolute idiot for going back to the one world where Axel specifically says, "you can't turn your back on the Organization. You get on their bad side and they'll destroy you" so why in God's name is he going back if he has no logical reason too? It makes Roxas look like a moron, which he isn't because if he was, he wouldn't have caught on to the Organization and Axel lying to him. Yeah he's a bit impulsive but he's not an idiot seeking a death wish. And that reason was thinking he could defeat Xenmas, open Kingdom Hearts (which he has no reason to think he can), bring Xion back, and thinking everything would be okay at that point, which it wouldn't be. But you understand why he's thinking this way because Xion's death was the logical breaking point for him. He was not thinking clearly at all and that makes more emotional sense then him just going guns blazing for a reason that even he wouldn't be able to rationalize in his own head if there wasn't some sort of push to the edge to make him desperately believe it; to the point where he'd put his own life in danger. What, is he going to kill himself finding Sora? Roxas from the beginning has always fought for his own independence, identity, and his own life. That's the entire point of his character. He even fought Sora to do so in a winner take all situation, a last ditch effort. What, he just fought Sora to test his strength? No, he wanted see who was top dog and when Sora won, he accepted it because he has no other option at that point. So I doubt finding Sora was enough of a reason for him to get himself stupidly killed by either Riku or Xemnas without some sort of plan; because he wasn't behaving like an angry, blood thirsty, emotionally erratic, irrational moron at that point when he left Axel for the final time. In fact, he was fairly calm and content with leaving The Organization and seeking out a different path. Again, Roxas is not an idiot but he is easily inflienced by the people he cares about; especially if one of them is killed unjusticely and if another one of them kept lying to him to point where he logically couldn't trust him anymore.

Xion is pretty crucial to his character for that reason alone; in fact, he has way more of a reason to distrust the Organization given the way they treat her and the fact that throughout, Roxas grew more and more as person with his own emotions and thoughts along with Xion. She was someone Roxas could speak and relate too about his emotions that he couldnt ALWAYS do with Axel for obvious reasons. But regardless, Roxas ends up in the place he is in KH2 pretty much due to his relationship with Xion AND Axel and their own individual arcs that relate back his own personal journey. How is any of that pointless?

They both contribute to his emotional development from two different perspectives; which is what moves the plot.

"But axel could've filled the same role"

No, he couldn't have because Roxas' relationship to Axel compared to Xion is entirely different and that's pretty clear throughout the game. She serves a different motivation and perspective for him that Axel can't fulfill because Axel is in an entirely different position with a completely different mindset. So at that point, especially during Roxas' development, Xion's arc and POV contributes to Roxas' journey just as much as Axel's but for a reason that Axel can't completely understand because Axel really doesnt care as much about his past as Roxas and Xion do and all wants to do is protect them both, even if it's from the truth; you would you have to change his entire character and his motivation for doing what he does. Xion has a completely different mindset and personality then Axel does. That's not even considering the fact that Axel is a certain position of power and authority, which is why Roxas and Xion grew to distrust him and why Axel feels conflicted in the way he is because he uses that power to protect what he has left to care about since Saix, from his perspective, has become a different person in his eyes. And, also, realistically, there's only so much Axel could do. Its a lose-lose situation for everyone and that's the point of the entire story.

And now, the obvious deflect that people give me is that "well, something else could've made Roxas do that" and "thats all we needed as a explanation in KH2"

first off, it isn't and secondly... so what? That's not an argument, that just a hypothetical. The writers could've came up with anything to justify that scene and go more depth with Roxas' decision. They chose to create Xion... so what's the problem here? That she was added after the fact? So what? If you think she's written badly, fair enough but to call her pointless just isn't true by the time we get to the end and we see how it all goes together. You can make that same case for Apprentice Xehanort, which I know a lot of people do but I even argue for him too. Hypothetically, his character didn't need to exist. Ansem could've have been solely one character and that was it but they decided to add more depth to the story and give it more weight to what actually happened and it added a lot more to the emotional crux of the narrative and it's one of the only things KH2's story does right. I'm glad they did it. And it's the same with Xion.

"But there was no reason for Xion to be a 14th member since they already had Roxas"

It was explained in-game that Xion was created as a failsafe incase Roxas fell through or went rogue. What, did you think Xenmas sent Xion after Roxas TWICE just cause? No, Xenmas' mindset was clear from the beginning. In case Roxas falls through for whatever reason, Xion is the obvious backup. The fact that she's still connected to Sora in anyway is just icing on the cake for them. So again, she isn't pointless in that sense either. And hell, given everything we've seen in KH2, with 358/2 in mind, they made the right call to use Xion as a backup because Roxas would've logically left them or ended up in another coma. They gave a pretty logical conclusion in the story that's pretty acceptable, even more considering the fact that Xion was actively draining Roxas' powers, so if Xion didnt do what she did, Roxas would've been a loose end anyway (and no, before someone uses that against me, Roxas eventually leaving anyway without Xion wouldn't have justify his actions after the fact which, again, make no logical sense unless he was pushed to make a stupid decision to risk his own life to go somewhere he doesnt need to go back too) She might've as well have saved his life by giving up her own needs and desires to set things right.

Look, I just don't get this mindset of a character being pointless when they clearly add some dimension to the story just because they were added later on. KH isn't even the only story that has done this. It just feels like scapegoating simply because you don't happen to like a character.

A pointless character means they dont contribute to the plot and/or the emotional weight of the story that moves the plot foward in way that makes sense and that's simply not true for most of these characters. Now, you don't have to like them or think it's written well, thats perfectly fine, but to say they're pointless and don't add anything isn't true... in my opinion, anyway. I'm not saying every character does because there are pointless characters in this story that really don't add anything *cough*Maleficent*cough*

And to play Devil's advocate, it could be the same with Yozora. His character from the beginning has always rubbed me the wrong way but ya know what? If he's written well into the story, or they at least come up with some emotional weight to why he's there that makes logical sense, then all that is forgiven. If he adds to the plot, whether internally and externally, even if I still don't like him, then fine. I rag on him a lot, because his inclusion on the surface feels really lazy to me and he definately feels like a pointless character that has no reason to be there but he could very well become a great character depending on what he contributes and what relationship he has to Sora and co. It's all in the writing and the writing in 358/2 days is pretty damn solid compared to some stories in KH. I have gripes about the story of KH but one I never had is the OC characters never contributing to the plot at all. Even in a small way or a big way, every character has had a role that has moved the plot forward or even recontexulizes scenes and events. So, yes, you can not like Xion's character, I'm not forcing anyone too, but to say she's pointless feels dishonest to me.

KH3 on the other hand... yeah, no, she's entirely pointless and the way she comes back is really, REALLY stupid. But so is everyone else in the game that isn't named Sora. They are so useless, they don't even get to resolve their own arcs lol but that's mostly a problem with KH3 itself and even DDD to some extent.

 

SweetYetSalty

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Honestly? Mickey Mouse himself. His inclusion in the series has been pretty lackluster after KH2. The mystery of him was nice in KH1 and he had some good moments in KH2. But now a days he just makes the more serious moments feel much less serious with that cheery little voice and obviously him ignoring Aquas existence for ten years simply didn’t make sense. In fact almost all of his decisions throughout the series have been very illogical.

Like there was no reason for him to go to the RoD by himself in KH1. I still don’t understand what he was trying to do during the beginning of KH2 before the mid game. And in DDD and KH3 he has served more as an echo chamber for Yen Sid. Oh and coded... yeah no. Less focus on Mickey and more on the OC please.
I think Mickey was tracking Ansem the Wise at the start of KH2, but his actions are still weird on how he thinks the Org are always listening on him. I always make it a joke headcanon that he's trying to buy Spidey back from Sony at the start of KH2 and the Organization work for Sony trying to prevent the transaction from happening, always makes more sense then whatever he was really doing. Anyway I love your Yen Sid echo chamber line XD
 

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Which makes Xion easily replaceable, erasable, and unessential. That very fact makes her dispensable, period. Your entire argument is based on what happened in 358/2 Days with Xion there and that, really, you just liked what Xion added to the theme (which is entirely based on personal opinion rather than actual use). That does not make Xion necessary. There is a reason I posted that interview with Nomura already giving a canon reason for Roxas leaving before it got retconned. Xion's entire existence is tied with Roxas'. If the entire point of creation is to give one character motivation to leave (and a motivation that already was given in the first place - being plagued by Sora's memories and ultimately wanting to figure out why) rather than the overarching plot, you're needless. Especially if that character starts and ends in KHII.There's suspicion that Riku's role might have been bigger even, considering Nomura has also said he wanted to explore that year with Riku and Mickey, and Roxas and Riku fought "twice" (while also seemingly knowing each other, Roxas wouldn't have offered him a Keyblade in that secret ending otherwise), which got muddled thanks to 358/2 Days.

358/2 Days as a game didn't need to exist to be honest. A person can truly make an argument for that. KHII came first. No matter what occurred in the the year between that and KHI, the result would have been the same - Roxas resigned from Organization XIII (oh, but no, it's fourteen, riiight). What if Roxas or Axel or the Organization wasn't popular enough to get a game for themselves, then what? Would it make a difference with that Roxas decided? Would it cause a tremor to the overall series? Would fans be bothered that they didn't have some emotional punch gut that they don't need? No. Because it was a foregone conclusion. Sora couldn't even wake up until Roxas returned regardless of whether or not Xion existed. So she doesn't even get that either.

So if a user is going to make a thread asking what character would one pick to be erased, don't get up in arms because people choose Xion, it has complete and sound basis. Xion's easy pickings. She could be erased and nothing would go wrong or change whatsoever. There's no legitimate reason why she's required at all.

-------------------------

That ends that. Let's get to the more subjective part -

The plot caves in itself to justify Xion. Xemnas does absolutely nothing while Xion disappears for days on end, Diz wouldn't have waited an entire year to do anything. What kind of dumb ass villain lets a pawn go free willy nilly for a month? It's unfathomable. Diz and Xemnas being antagonistic to one another to get a hold of Roxas would have made way more sense. Xion is dying in that glittery death of her, and somehow (i.e. convenience), all she could instruct Roxas to do is "free Kingdom Hearts" instead of "find Sora". Only to then change her mind in the Deep Dive scene because now characters can speak and control a Keyblade because it ties to "memory" in its name. Let's not get to the concept that she's Sora's/Roxas' replica but look likes Kairi cause "memories" instead of being the male Xion should have been. Becaus "girl" and "trio". I mean, if you're going to break down the points of others, mention how much more nonsensical shit and complication Xion's existence brings to something as simple as Axel being surprised Roxas was using two Keyblades (which was Ventus' in the end, lol) and what relationship Riku had with Roxas/what was going on in that fight from KHII.
You are speaking in hypotheticals, which isn't the same as actual criticism. Again, I ask... so what? So what they created Xion and made another trio. And? It just seems you just have a problem with character rather her actual use in the story and her use is completley justified in the narrative and you're just focusing on nitpicks that don't really matter because Xenmas not being able to find her for month has nothing to do with anything. He has members of The Orgainzation actively searching for her, including Axel. That's not a problem with the story. Also, DiZ has no reason to go after Roxas right now since Sora is still recovering his memories. Adding Roxas into the mix way too early, espeically with delicate of a process fixing his chain of memories was, and especially considering Roxas isn't even a fully formed person, would have messed everything up. I mean, that's the same argument you can use for KH2, so that's not even problem with 358/2 Days itself. So on that, we'll have to agree to disagree.

You know who people would argue is a pointless character? Ashoka. If she was taken out of the story, Star Wars would've played out exactly the same. But the thing is, when you actually see how everything plays out and what role she plays into Anakin's story, that argument is not as easy to make because the writers justified her existence and her role in the story. And I wouldn't have it any other way because she enhances Anakin's story and gives more weight to why he ended up falling to the dark side.

Also, if Noruma really wanted to do the things you said he was going to do in interviews... THEN HE SHOULD'VE JUST DID IT. Instead he went a different route that he felt was better. So again, that's not the fault of the story, Noruma decided to change the story, which is something writers do ALL THE TIME. Thats not criticism, that's you wanting the story to be something that isn't anymore and not criticizing the actual story. If you think justification for her were lame, fair enough but that still doesnt explain Roxas' actions in KH2 anyway, not enough to go on a suicidal mission in a place where Sora isn't located and fighting a person that wouldn't have told him anything since Roxas isn't acting a like normal, rational person and finding who Sora is isn't enough to make want to kill someone else over. That's not how human beings work and makes Roxas look like a f**king idiot and a cold-hearted murderer.

Again, you can make the same argument with ANY character in this story or any character in any story. It's not that hard to do, which is why its easy-pickings criticism that has no weight unless you seriously want to nitpick every single plot in this story that really doesn't matter in the end, like Axel not noticing or knowing Roxas' two keyblades. Okay, and? What about Riku asking Roxas why he has a keyblade WHEN HE SHOULD ALREADY KNOW THAT, in even the context of KH2. I never said these stories are flawless but these super nick picks that you can makes with ALL of these stories. Its almost as if KH as a story is pretty flawed and you can easily poke holes in it, even the good ones.

Also, I feel you skimmed over my argument as to why Xion was necessary because Sora's memories are not enough of a justification for Roxas to act like a idiot and go back to the one place he was specifically told he couldnt come back too, otherwise he would be killed and feel like Nlruma realized that. If Roxas just left The Oragnization and that was it, the plot would not move forward because Roxas 1) has no resources and 2) no point of origin to look for Sora anyway. It's even explained in 358/2 Days, where the hell was Roxas going to go? He has nowhere to go. That's not something you can easily gloss over. Riku vs Roxas makes no sense in isolation or even in the context of KH2 because, again, he has no reason to go back to The Organization, especially not to find Sora. And you think just Xion would've said "go find Sora and at his location" not only would've killed the pacing of that scene but Roxas would've too angry and erratic to listen or care either way. All he would've focused on regardless was bringing Xion back first and foremost.

Also, don't use the argument of me displaying my argument for Xion's existence as if I'm just bitching for the sake of it. He asked me a question, I answered the best way I could. That just feels like deflecting to make me look like an asshole when I'm simply explaining my argument, same as you are. And I speak with passion because, to me, the argument of her being pointless is pretty flawed and from a lack of understanding of who Roxas is as a person and what actually motives his character in a more meaningful and logical way. Also saying "that ends that" makes it seem like my opinion is automatically wrong and yet you try to talk about subjectivity, which is pretty ironic.
 
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