Miracles and God

[Nyangoro]

Then, why do miracles exist? If I saw an obvious miracle that resulted from my praying, I would be led to believe in God about just as much as if I saw him appear to us.

To be perfectly honest, I'd be very skeptical of any actual miracles that supposedly occurred nowadays. Most people confuse miracles with other types of events. For example, a hurricane sweeping away an opposing army while leaving your own unfazed isn't a miracle in the strict sense of the word.

Actual miracles, I believe, were only present during the times of the Bible; because they were used to verify God's word as relating to Him. If you notice, in the Bible, most miracles (if not all) are used to prove a point.

It still stands that a loving God would try to save us in whatever way he could. Appearing to us would convert a lot of people, but would still keep free will.

Except that He is the one who opened the way in the first place. He wants us to choose salvation from the Bible (which He, has apparently deemed as enough); and to be perfectly honest, humans probably wouldn't be able to handle God actually coming down to earth in his normal "form" and talking to us. There's also the chance that people would just pass it off as a voice in their head.

doesn't it say something where since Jesus died and rose from the dead, now we have a chance to live an eternal life with God if we truly desire that through our actions and faith

I would agree with you if we were talking about the time before Jesus died, but I don't think we're necessarily damned and going to Hell when we die without any chance of going to Heaven if we truly deserve it.

We do have a chance to live an eternal life with God. That's what salvation is all about, but none of us deserve Heaven. It's through His mercy that we can get in, but we have to accept the offer.

 

[The Fishman]

We do have a chance to live an eternal life with God. That's what salvation is all about, but none of us deserve Heaven. It's through His mercy that we can get in, but we have to accept the offer.

Totally agree, it's just that I didn't get that from your original post about that.

 

[Camilo101]

\Just so you know, God doesn't do miracles to prove his existence. If you sincerely believed in him and prayed for a miracle, your faith would let it happen. But if you just want one because you need proof God exists, it won't happen. It is written "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord." This was brought up when Jesus was in the desert, tempted by Satan. Satan put Jesus onto a high cliff and told himself to throw himself off, because it is written that angels would save him. But then Jesus also pointed out the quote I just made.

Miracles don't "exist", they happen when someone has a strong faith in God. Just so you know, all of the miracles Jesus did were because the people he healed had faith in him. Jesus told the man with the mangled hand to stretch out his hand, and because he obeyed Jesus he was healed. A father whose son had a horrible fever went to Jesus and begged him to come to his house and heal his son. Jesus told him to return to his son, and that he was healed. Because the man believed him and went home, he found out that his son had been healed at the very moment he left Jesus.

I could talk about some more, but yeah, just adding that into the discussion.

 

[Forever Atlas]

Please. No huge wall of text. I doubt you need 300,000 words to explain something so simple.

In religion it's rarely ever that simple.

But if you do, fine, I'll read it.

You asked a series of questions. In order to get a fairly thorough response, it will be considerably lengthy being that a lot goes into the subject from various directions. Hopefully when I get around to it, you'll be up for the read.

 

[XIII Nobodies]

A miracle is good karma returning to you at a time of despair. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Solar]

Off topic, but why is man born inherently bad? Original Sin and all that doesn't make sense to me logically or spiritually.

 

[The Fishman]

Off topic, but why is man born inherently bad? Original Sin and all that doesn't make sense to me logically or spiritually.

Well, spiritually, it has to do with man's first sin, disobeying God = Original Sin. I wouldn't say we're born inherently "bad", it's just we're born with that Original sin because of our descent from Adam. We all take part in that sin because we all committed it in a sense, not just Adam. If Adam didn't sin, or Eve didn't sin, someone along the line would have sinned and created that ripple effect.

I guess you can say the inherently bad part is concupiscence, our inclination to sin, a "side-effect" of Original sin.We're "bad" because we sin and sometimes can't stop ourselves, hence the inclination. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but it makes sense to me. Feel free to correct me if I said something wrong or I missed something, whatever. And sorry for getting off-topic.

 

[Forever Atlas]

First let's get this into the clearing. There are several definitions of the word "miracle."

I suggest taking a look at this page when you have the time:

miracle: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

Some people describe common things such as child birth miracles. Or body mechanics, life itself. Others it's more dramatic things like near death experiences. Still yet, some believe miracles are more blatantly supernatural occurrences.

Now, since I do not think you want to read into a lot (and frankly I barely have any time) I'll cut down on what I was going to write and give a brief or general overview. Hopefully it will help you understand (if that is so your intent).

There is a difference between miracles of old and miracles today.

In addition, what may be a miracle to one person may not be to another. It's all how one perceives it.

I like this quote here: A miracle, amazing to the eye of the beholder, is something beyond his ability to perform or even to understand fully. It is also a powerful work, requiring greater power or knowledge than he has. But from the viewpoint of the one who is the source of such power, it is not a miracle.

Then there are just certain phenomena or things in nature that are not fully understood and thus rendered a "miracle" of sorts.

Horrible events. Such as Genocides and natural events; bad things. If humans can't explain why they happened, or even if they can, that doesn't mean God did it. Because he doesn't mess with free will/ is a benevolent God.

God not messing with free will has nothing to do with these type of events. That's like saying a man didn't save a drowning child because that would that would stop the flow of the child's free will.

Free will has nothing to do with this.

The reason we (those who do believe in the Christian God) do not attribute horrible events to God are due to several reasons.

James 1:13 - When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.

1 John 5: 19 - We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

If they are one of those that give equal credit to God for all events, then there are rationalizations such as 'God did this so that in the future good events will happen because of the butterfly effect'.

Is that another philosophy of man that has no relevance to the actuality of God?

One action doesn't necessarily attribute to or cause a chain of other events. God has the power and knowledge so that whatever he does is in the best interest of all, esp. his servants.

For one, this sounds crazy to me.

And two, how can God invoke a miracle without messing with freewill?

How can anyone do anything? How is it any different with God? I'm typing something right now in response to your post. You do not know what type of computer I'm typing on, how fast I'm typing, where I am typing from. These are things unknown to you. Is that messing with your free will?

It would make me a little more satisfied to see that one of the most prominent religions in the world isn't so fallacious.

So, is this about God? or is this really about religion? A specific or actually general look at one type of religion and basing your opinion of God and His ways off of that?

* Quotations are there because a miracle such as a baby being miraculously saved from near death, could mean the death of a whole race if that baby grew up to be a man such as Hitler. Or a miracle to a poor family that are very devout Christians receiving 1,000,000 dollars could mean that the check was given to them by a drunk wealthy man that needed that money badly. Or maybe Jesus' miracle of rising from the dead could have driven several people mad, making them commit suicide or turn them into sociopaths in the end.

Speculations, imagined scenarios, assumptions, and "what ifs" mean just about nothing without facts in this respect.

"Every good gift is from God." He blesses those who serve Him in other ways sufficient for their needs while not necessarily providing divine intervention.

Those who do not serve God, he's allowing to live right now. He's allowing them to do what they want. That's a type of gift from God. But it doesn't necessarily mean that because something extraordinary happens to them it's an act from God. He's not going to give them anything special if they aren't serving him.

So there's a lot that goes into the phrase "every good gift" and what constitutes those gifts and "good" acts.

I'm too tired. Done for now.


Supplementary Info that you may like to read:

Miracles--Fact or Fiction?
Should Christians Expect Divine Protection?
Are Your Problems ...

 

[Wehrmacht]

On a different note, humans are already doomed to Hell (according to Christian doctrine); it's not that God sends us to Hell for not believing in him. We are sent to Hell because that is the default.

His power is supposed to be limitless, so it could be any other way if he so wished it. So really, it's more like "We are sent to hell because God allows it to be that way."

 

[Nyangoro]

His power is supposed to be limitless, so it could be any other way if he so wished it. So really, it's more like "We are sent to hell because God allows it to be that way."

His power is limitless, sure; but His nature is very set. He cannot allow sin into heaven, simple as that. Fortunately, He has given us a way to break free from sin (and subsequently, Hell).

People say that God isn't benevolent because He allows people to go to Hell. I say He is benevolent because He offers people the way to get to Heaven. One He allows to happen, the other He offers Himself.

 

[Ven-Dono]

There is a difference between miracles of old and miracles today.

Why?

In addition, what may be a miracle to one person may not be to another. It's all how one perceives it.

It reminds me of how people used to think lightning bolts were so amazing there must be a God behind it all.

I like this quote here: A miracle, amazing to the eye of the beholder, is something beyond his ability to perform or even to understand fully. It is also a powerful work, requiring greater power or knowledge than he has. But from the viewpoint of the one who is the source of such power, it is not a miracle.

Then there are just certain phenomena or things in nature that are not fully understood and thus rendered a "miracle" of sorts.

So then, are there miracles brought by God today?

God not messing with free will has nothing to do with these type of events. That's like saying a man didn't save a drowning child because that would that would stop the flow of the child's free will.

Free will has nothing to do with this.

I agree. I've heard some people say God doesn't kill Atheists, Jews, etc because there's a chance they would convert in the future.

The reason we (those who do believe in the Christian God) do not attribute horrible events to God are due to several reasons.

James 1:13 - When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up then. Still, I was half right about it being because he is benevolent, eh?

1 John 5: 19 - We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

I dunno about you, but when I hear about how the Devil is blamed for atrocities and not God, it confuses me. With God's Omniscience, why would he create Satan?

One action doesn't necessarily attribute to or cause a chain of other events. God has the power and knowledge so that whatever he does is in the best interest of all, esp. his servants.

We live in a causal universe. Every action has a reaction. No matter how insignificant.

God/Christ's teachings have definitely caused some grief.

When I am chastised by Christians (not saying they are "true Christians" or whatever) for being Atheist, that is not necessarily in my best interest. This would not happen if Christ's teachings never happened.

Technically, Christians are indirectly attacked for Christ's teachings. Even though I only say this as a counter, aren't some overly faithful and fanatical people under the teachings of Islam attacking Christians specifically?

And why do God's teachings need to be through the bible? I need to look up the specific post by Fire's Fan, but she said people who don't learn about God can still go to Heaven if they find God through nature or something.

Edit: Here it is

But it's according to how much you know, If you've been in church all your life but never accepted Christ then you are at more fault then an Indian somewhere, That indian can be saved just by accepting God, by looking at nature

His power is limitless, sure; but His nature is very set. He cannot allow sin into heaven, simple as that. Fortunately, He has given us a way to break free from sin (and subsequently, Hell).

People say that God isn't benevolent because He allows people to go to Hell. I say He is benevolent because He offers people the way to get to Heaven. One He allows to happen, the other He offers Himself.

I find it funny that he got so mad for two of our ancestors eating a fruit (I kind of wonder how a fruit gives intelligence of good and evil; a psychedelic drug?), cursed all of humanity for their ancestors' doings, and calls himself good because he will forgive you for being born. All because he came to life and got killed for our sake. :|

 

[Nyangoro]

I find it funny that he got so mad for two of our ancestors eating a fruit (I kind of wonder how a fruit gives intelligence of good and evil; a psychedelic drug?), cursed all of humanity for their ancestors' doings, and calls himself good because he will forgive you for being born. All because he came to life and got killed for our sake. :|

Who knows how the fruit did that, the drug thing sounds pretty cool though.

Anyway, He didn't get mad at them for eating the fruit, He got mad at them for disobedience and then lying/making up excuses about it. I'm sure you've been in a situation where your parents told you "I'm not upset because you did [insert something here], I'm upset that you liked to me."

The whole "sin" thing is an entirely separate thing that actual has quite a bit of explanation behind it. But essentially, a consequence of sin is that it separates us from God. When Adam and Eve were created, they had a complete one-to-one relationship with God. Once they sinned, that relationship was severed, and that severed link remains with each subsequent generation.

 

[Ven-Dono]

Anyway, He didn't get mad at them for eating the fruit, He got mad at them for disobedience and then lying/making up excuses about it. I'm sure you've been in a situation where your parents told you "I'm not upset because you did [insert something here], I'm upset that you liked to me."

And that justifies sending them to hell? If anything it justifies distrust, but not eternal suffering.

Once they sinned, that relationship was severed, and that severed link remains with each subsequent generation.

But why? God just gave up on us? How is that forgiving? And why doesn't he just conjure up some omnipotence and make us born without sin? Would that breach free will?

 

[Ulti]

Anyway, He didn't get mad at them for eating the fruit, He got mad at them for disobedience and then lying/making up excuses about it. I'm sure you've been in a situation where your parents told you "I'm not upset because you did [insert something here], I'm upset that you liked to me."

Here is the part which I find fucked up. God is all powerful and all knowing, thus He knew what would happen. He knew of Satan. He let all this happen. It wasn't like He didn't know the outcome. He knew and let it happen. He wanted it to. I just don't see any logic behind this.

 

[Square Ninja]

Here is the part which I find fucked up. God is all powerful and all knowing, thus He knew what would happen. He knew of Satan. He let all this happen. It wasn't like He didn't know the outcome. He knew and let it happen. He wanted it to. I just don't see any logic behind this.

Go read Paradise Lost.

srsly

 

[Forever Atlas]

Why?

Because of covenants and changes through history. And people's perception. It's all written about in the Bible. <sigh> Too tired to type it all now.

It reminds me of how people used to think lightning bolts were so amazing there must be a God behind it all.

And now we know what causes lightning. So while it's still considered a phenomenon of sorts, it's not necessarily a miracle according to some people's view of a "miracle."

So then, are there miracles brought by God today?

I wouldn't say no. And I wouldn't say yes. Here are my reasons why. Once again it goes back to a person's view of what is a miracle and what is not.

People may be blessed by God thus being provided thing's that they may not have had experienced under ordinary circumstances.

However, God does not make miracles today such as an image of "the virgin mary" on a piece of toast. And someone surviving extreme conditions isn't necessarily divine intervention. If you take a look at that article I posted last, it's not something that happens today on the most part. But if a person wants to believe it was God who helped them out of a situation, who are we to shoot their thoughts down?

I agree. I've heard some people say God doesn't kill Atheists, Jews, etc because there's a chance they would convert in the future.

Right, the Bible does say that God does not desire to see anyone hurt, or destroyed, but desires all to repent and live a happy prosperous unending life.

I dunno about you, but when I hear about how the Devil is blamed for atrocities and not God, it confuses me. With God's Omniscience, why would he create Satan?

God didn't create Satan. God created a perfect Angel who abused his free will and chose to become "Satan." Bad things happen because of man and Satan. According to the scriptures it's Satan who's ruiling this world thus the reason there's so much bad. But humans are at fault too. We attribute to all that badness. So we cant say "the devil made me do it" no, we did it on our own.

God/Christ's teachings have definitely caused some grief.

When I am chastised by Christians (not saying they are "true Christians" or whatever) for being Atheist, that is not necessarily in my best interest. This would not happen if Christ's teachings never happened.

You mean that wouldn't have happened if they had actually followed Christ's teachings. If you read the Bible, you'll understand that those "Christians" act that way because they aren't actually following the Word, rather being under Satan's influence.

Technically, Christians are indirectly attacked for Christ's teachings. Even though I only say this as a counter, aren't some overly faithful and fanatical people under the teachings of Islam attacking Christians specifically?

Persecution happens for just about every faith. But Christ did say that if you are going to be my true follower you will be persecuted.

And why do God's teachings need to be through the bible? I need to look up the specific post by Fire's Fan, but she said people who don't learn about God can still go to Heaven if they find God through nature or something.

John 17:3. In order to do what John 17:3 says, you need the Bible. That is, if you are speaking about Christianity. Other beliefs may have different ideas or teachings in this respect.

And that justifies sending them to hell? If anything it justifies distrust, but not eternal suffering.

That's not a Bible teaching. It's a doctrine that Christendom adopted through the ages. God wouldn't do that.

But why? God just gave up on us? How is that forgiving? And why doesn't he just conjure up some omnipotence and make us born without sin? Would that breach free will?

God didn't give up on anyone. That's the whole purpose of giving his son as a ransom for us all. However there's a lot more that goes into the whole situation.

Here is the part which I find fucked up. God is all powerful and all knowing, thus He knew what would happen. He knew of Satan. He let all this happen. It wasn't like He didn't know the outcome. He knew and let it happen. He wanted it to. I just don't see any logic behind this.

He is all powerful yes. But as has been said many times, he's not an abuser of that power like humans tend to be. As a human we can be so quick as to say we would do the right thing in that situation. Unlikely. God, didn't abuse his power and look into the future although he has the ability to. So he did not know the spirit creature he created would sin and become the slanderer Satan. He didn't know the outcome because he didn't abuse his power and take away free will.

Satan was not bad at first. And Adam and Eve didn't have to sin. Today our inclination is to do what's wrong, because we are imperfect. Adam and Eve were perfect with the inclination to do what was right in God's eyes. They went against that and sinned. Thus dooming their own self.

 

[Ven-Dono]

I, myself, can't argue on past anything else. Besides this.

God didn't create Satan. God created a perfect Angel who abused his free will and chose to become "Satan." Bad things happen because of man and Satan. According to the scriptures it's Satan who's ruiling this world thus the reason there's so much bad. But humans are at fault too. We attribute to all that badness. So we cant say "the devil made me do it" no, we did it on our own.

The key word I said back there was "omniscience". He knew this was going to happen.

Christians say they love their religion because it gives them a purpose. For what purpose did God create life?

 

[Forever Atlas]

I just explained that he didn't know it was going to happen. I have had longer explanations in other threads about the details that go into it, but he didn't know.

"Christians" say a lot of things. Especially since there are so many different types of "Christians" out there. What was God's reason for creating life? Heck if we know the full details. But He did want his creations to live perfect happy lives while giving the worship and service due to Him. Why question it though? Life is a gift regardless. We take it for granted so many times. Especially if we do not experience the hardships or trials that millions or billions of others around the world do.

Each day is a gift and should be treated as such. Regardless if you believe in God or not.

 

[Ven-Dono]

Each day is a gift and should be treated as such. Regardless if you believe in God or not.

Meh. Isn't that more of an opinion?

I don't think of it as a gift. More or less a neutral thing to me. Maybe because, I've never been consciously non-existent. Lol. But yeah, who are you to say life is a gift?

Maybe God giving you a purpose does make you see the world in a better way.