• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Theory on the substance of light and darkness or "How is 7 and 13 equal?"



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

leonidus

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
172
Location
Croatia
It's kind of puzzling how 7 and 13 vessels are needed to forge the X-Blade when in our minds that hardly makes up a "half of each other".

I argue a simple thing and that is that light is a more potent element of the two and it produces more in terms of quality while the darkness is less "dense", thus requiring more of it to get to a 50:50 ratio in strength. So, the only way to achieve an equality in power would be to have darkness (in some number) quantitatively "bigger".

It makes sense for a lot of points in the story, besides the 7-13 bit. Take a look at what Xehanort wrote for instance: "I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." Now, if you want to achieve balance, filling a lot of the universe with darkness (like he was seen doing) seems counterproductive, doesn't it? Well, if the theory is true, then he seeks to balance the power of both by having a bigger part of the universe be the darkness.

It also explains why Ventus and Vanitas by themselves never granted a perfect X-Blade. They were formed by the same being and quantitatively there was an equal share of light and darkness between the two, but qualitatively they were not the same due to the difference of the properties themselves. Vanitas needed more darkness in his being to achieve that which is why it was not quite perfect.

Hell, it even proves the very basic point of why a small bit of light in a bigger darkness can overpower the darkness, as seen in so many times in the series.

But mind you, this speaks about the property of the elements, not the strength of their respective users. There is no reason why a being of darkness can't overpower a being of light if the being itself is stronger.
 

Solo

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
4,606
Awards
15
Age
34
Location
Indonesia
Just want to point out that Xehanort's take on "too much darkness has been stamped out" and "tyranny of light" is just an opinion of his. It was just his excuse (read: lie) to make introducing more darkness to the worlds seem justifiable. The fact though is that before he started meddling in his interworldly affairs, the universe had always been pretty much in balance.

Also, I believe it was stated by Master Xehanort himself in DDD that the reason why Ventus and Vanitas didn't forge a perfect χ-blade is because it was a hasty attempt. It wasn't a proper method, a shortcut so to say, and thus it didn't produce the proper result.
 

Veritas7340

New member
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
362
Re: OP
I think Darkness is easier to use but Light is more resilient. Look at KHI, Sora says to Ansem SoD: "The heart may be weak, and sometimes it may even give in. But I know that deep down there is a light that never goes out!" He's speaking from experience, from when he was a Heartless. Even though the Darkness had overwhelmed him, it could not completely eradicate the light. Whereas with light, I think darkness can be completely annihilated, IIRC. (If not, feel free to correct me)

Re: Xehanort's Reason

In BBS, Xehanort reveals the true reason: he wants to see the grand mystery that is unlocked from using the X-Blade. The other "reason" of light's tyranny is just a poetic euphemism

Although in KH light and darkness are two sides of the same whole, light hasn't been shown to hurt anyone in the series with the sole exception of Eraqus. Even then, he says that he had darkness all along, so you know.
 

kuraudoVII

D'oh, I missed!
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
1,974
Awards
1
Location
Somewhere in Castle Figaro...
Just want to point out that Xehanort's take on "too much darkness has been stamped out" and "tyranny of light" is just an opinion of his. It was just his excuse (read: lie) to make introducing more darkness to the worlds seem justifiable. The fact though is that before he started meddling in his interworldly affairs, the universe had always been pretty much in balance.

Also, I believe it was stated by Master Xehanort himself in DDD that the reason why Ventus and Vanitas didn't forge a perfect χ-blade is because it was a hasty attempt. It wasn't a proper method, a shortcut so to say, and thus it didn't produce the proper result.

That seems to make sense. I distinctively remember Birth by Sleep being one of the few games in the series that had most of the cast really stress the fact that "Darkness is totally bad and Light is completely good." Granted, there were exceptions like the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella's world, but the fact is that there wasn't much leeway in allowing darkness to be considered a good thing considering that the game takes place an entire decade before Riku becomes the Chosen Hero of Darkness.

On a side note, I have to say that I was kind of disappointed that Master Xehanort's speeches and beliefs about the balance of light and darkness were not genuine. Mind you, I never fell for it for in the first place since the game makes it painfully obvious that he was a lying old fart, I think it might have been cool if he was a legitimate well-intentioned extremist instead of someone that wants to destroy the world for science. It seemed like the easy way out to me in regards to making a villain. Then again, I doubt that I'd like Master Xehanort if he weren't a megalomaniacal large ham that is way too entertaining to watch then, would I...
 

leonidus

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
172
Location
Croatia
@Solo: i'm not sure. I immediately think of Eraqus and his hatred of the darkness. The possible taught belief of the old Keyblade wielders (of which one was the master of Eraqus and Xehanort) that the darkness was indeed something that needed to be destroyed could have been in fact been the thing that ruined tbe balance in the first place. Xehanort may have noticed this but his problems were the methods he decided to use to correct it.

And if a proper, "non-hasty" method was all there is, then that means a proper X-blade could still be formed by just 2 entities if the method was correct. Seems to me it may have been simpler to just find just one other person and try it again differently than to gather a total of 20 people to achieve the same thing. Unless there really isn't a way to do it like that for reasons similar to what I said which makes the latter method the only right one.

Also, it's been established that you can't have light without darkness in many points so the balance thing checks out. Hell, even Mickey says it.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,615
Awards
5
I think it's also relevant to point out that when explaining the Xblade to Sora & Riku in DDD, Yen Sid points out that:
Yen Sid said:
....As for the real X-blade, it did not survive the battle. The two elements that created it, one of darkness and one of light, shattered into twenty pieces--seven of light; thirteen of darkness.

This contradicts the story the world was only light at one time. If the Xblade was always made from these two elements then darkness must've always been present in some way or form.
So I don't think it's as simple as "darkness is bad!!!omg!!!!" no, there's more to this balance than we all know of.

As for the OP about the value comparison, I don't think we have any real way of knowing that for a certain. Sure the 7 vs 13 OP makes a good point but these numbers have always been present in the series as well so it could just be Nomura pulling them again.
Everything from amount of worlds in a game to number of villains is signified in those two numbers.

We also don't know the true nature of the Xblade. Yes we know what it shattered into but we don't know if that's what it consisted of prior nor how it came to be.
For all we know it shattered into these specific amounts because the darkness introduced during the keyblade war corrupted it in some way causing more dark shards to break off than light.

I think there's just to much unknown here to follow any theories but I do say the OP has a good case for one.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
As for the OP about the value comparison, I don't think we have any real way of knowing that for a certain. Sure the 7 vs 13 OP makes a good point but these numbers have always been present in the series as well so it could just be Nomura pulling them again.

Exactly.
Then there is also to keep in mind that this whole stuff comes out of the mouth of Xehanort, a man who has been proven to be wrong with more than one of his theories/proposals.

In his own reports, he paints the one pure light heart and one pure dark heart-variant as the correct one to forge the X-blade, which turned out to be wrong. He also claims that all hearts originate from Darkness which is also wrong, so it isn't even sure that the current so-called "correct" method to forge the X-blade is indeed the correct one.

The very nature of the first Keyblade War being so far in the past that it is considered a legend and any information on it being classified (Eraqus points out that the "precepts" forbid any deeper study of the events and information surrounding it) indicates that even someone like Xehanort who invested much time delving into those mysteries only got an incomplete view of the whole issue not to mention that some information might have gotten garbled over the centuries.
 

Some guy

Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
224
He also claims that all hearts originate from Darkness which is also wrong
This is somewhat true though ... at least after the keyblade war. Remember, KH is in the RoD, so one can say every heart comes from darkness, and returns to darkness.

so it isn't even sure that the current so-called "correct" method to forge the X-blade is indeed the correct one.
This method was confirmed by Yen Sid, so it must be true. Xehanort knew of this too, he only used the "shortcut" because he was impatient.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
This is somewhat true though ... at least after the keyblade war. Remember, KH is in the RoD, so one can say every heart comes from darkness, and returns to darkness.


This method was confirmed by Yen Sid, so it must be true. Xehanort knew of this too, he only used the "shortcut" because he was impatient.

Hearts originate from Kingdom Hearts itself, which is light. Just because KH is located (as in surrounded) by Darkness doesn't mean that the hearts come from there. Not to mention that the place where the true KH is situated right now is not its proper place to begin with.
While it isn't confirmed the most likely reason that nearly all newborn hearts that came after the Keyblade War already have Darkness is because they are tainted by the Darkness surrounding the true KH.

Yea, like Yen Sid is a source of infallible wisdom himself, lol. That man, wise as he may be, also made several errors and miscalculations already which he himself admits.
Yen Sid also only knows the legends which may already be garbled in general. The only thing we know about for sure about the forging of the X-blade is that it may be brought about by a high dimensional clash of equal forces (or poles) of light and dark, as is stated in the DDD glossary.
It's nowhere definitely stated that these poles have to consist of exactly 7 and 13 pieces each, that's only what is generally assumed on the traditional belief that the original X-blade did shatter into these amount of pieces.
By doing this, MX obviously believes that he may come nearest to the "status" of the original X-blade in terms of setup and that it may thus result in a "perfect" blade being formed.

As was shown even with the "hasty" attempt in BBS though, the X-blade seems to be only able to remain complete/reach full completion if every part of it truly wants it. Ventus did not want to create the weapon in the first place and his "part" of the whole thing never integrated fully due to this unwillingness.
MX also states that a Kingdom Hearts brought about by forcefully collecting/joining hearts (as those who were created in KH 1 and 2 with world and human hearts respectively) would never equal the true one.
As the X-blade is the counterpart to KH itself, one can assume that the same rule goes also for the X-blade itself, so MX getting a true "perfect" X-blade I would say is out of the question to begin with as even when not counting the Guardians of light, not even all of his "thirteen seekers" actually want what he wants, that's why he resorts to suppressing their will and imprisoning their personalities/essences within their own hearts.
 

Nayru's Love

Why don't you play in Hell?
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
4,232
Awards
9
Age
31
Location
Chicago, IL
It also explains why Ventus and Vanitas by themselves never granted a perfect X-Blade. They were formed by the same being and quantitatively there was an equal share of light and darkness between the two, but qualitatively they were not the same due to the difference of the properties themselves. Vanitas needed more darkness in his being to achieve that which is why it was not quite perfect.
Except that both were more or less on equal footing with each other, and yet Vanitas still was the more dominant of the two (initially, anyways). It was Vanitas who had the X-Blade, in both the real world and the Awakening. Which is fitting, considering he'd be the 13 to Ven's 7, if you know what I mean. The darkness overpowers the light, unless the light reaches for another light. Two lights beat one darkness, two 7's beat one 13.
 

Some guy

Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
224
Hearts originate from Kingdom Hearts itself, which is light.
It's Sora who said this though ... I'd like to think KH is made of both light and darkness, like every heart that composes it.
Just because KH is located (as in surrounded) by Darkness doesn't mean that the hearts come from there. Not to mention that the place where the true KH is situated right now is not its proper place to begin with.
While it isn't confirmed the most likely reason that nearly all newborn hearts that came after the Keyblade War already have Darkness is because they are tainted by the Darkness surrounding the true KH.
This is just a matter of point of view. If I had to make an analogy, think of pearls: they come from oysters, but if you look at it in a broader way, pearls come from the sea/ocean.

Yea, like Yen Sid is a source of infallible wisdom himself, lol. That man, wise as he may be, also made several errors and miscalculations already which he himself admits.
Yen Sid also only knows the legends which may already be garbled in general. The only thing we know about for sure about the forging of the X-blade is that it may be brought about by a high dimensional clash of equal forces (or poles) of light and dark, as is stated in the DDD glossary.
It's nowhere definitely stated that these poles have to consist of exactly 7 and 13 pieces each, that's only what is generally assumed on the traditional belief that the original X-blade did shatter into these amount of pieces.
By doing this, MX obviously believes that he may come nearest to the "status" of the original X-blade in terms of setup and that it may thus result in a "perfect" blade being formed.
As was shown even with the "hasty" attempt in BBS though, the X-blade seems to be only able to remain complete/reach full completion if every part of it truly wants it. Ventus did not want to create the weapon in the first place and his "part" of the whole thing never integrated fully due to this unwillingness.
MX also states that a Kingdom Hearts brought about by forcefully collecting/joining hearts (as those who were created in KH 1 and 2 with world and human hearts respectively) would never equal the true one.
As the X-blade is the counterpart to KH itself, one can assume that the same rule goes also for the X-blade itself, so MX getting a true "perfect" X-blade I would say is out of the question to begin with as even when not counting the Guardians of light, not even all of his "thirteen seekers" actually want what he wants, that's why he resorts to suppressing their will and imprisoning their personalities/essences within their own hearts.
What I meant is we have 2 different sources saying the same thing so ... Of course this method could fail (yet again), but it's more likely to succeed. However, you raised an interesting point about the ownership of the blade, with so many wills in the mix ... Or maybe, unlike BBS' "heart fusion", the blade will just appear out of thin air as the forces of light and darkness clash?

The OP is on to something though, I always wondered how 7 lights and 13 darknesses would make a balance. Also, the darkness always seemed more "diffuse", even seeping out of people; while light is more condensed.
 

Naryx15

New member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
668
Age
29
Location
Baltimore, MD
This could be a stretch but perhaps it could be a play on the "lucky number seven" and "unlucky number thirteen" representing light vs. dark but that's probably just a weird coincidence (and those numbers could mean completely other things in Japanese culture). Or it's simply because the 7 lights correspond with the 7 PoH and they just kept the number from the original Org XIII, deciding at the last minute to make that a new plot point for the X-blade.

Honestly there's probably not much to it other than "light is stronger than darkness therefore it takes about two darknesses to balance out one light". I couldn't see them balancing it out any other way unless they all of a sudden decided to make a bunch of random good guys Guardians of Light, or they cut down on the New Org by half.
 
Last edited:

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,615
Awards
5
This could be a stretch but perhaps it could be a play on the "lucky number seven" and "unlucky number thirteen"
Your actually not far off on that. If you notice 7 and 13 appear a lot in the series from everything to villain count to world/level in a game count.
 

Absent

Nomura's Biggest Fan
Joined
Sep 16, 2013
Messages
3,342
Awards
17
Location
Outer Rim
Re: OP
I think Darkness is easier to use but Light is more resilient. Look at KHI, Sora says to Ansem SoD: "The heart may be weak, and sometimes it may even give in. But I know that deep down there is a light that never goes out!" He's speaking from experience, from when he was a Heartless. Even though the Darkness had overwhelmed him, it could not completely eradicate the light. Whereas with light, I think darkness can be completely annihilated, IIRC. (If not, feel free to correct me)

Re: Xehanort's Reason

In BBS, Xehanort reveals the true reason: he wants to see the grand mystery that is unlocked from using the X-Blade. The other "reason" of light's tyranny is just a poetic euphemism

Although in KH light and darkness are two sides of the same whole, light hasn't been shown to hurt anyone in the series with the sole exception of Eraqus. Even then, he says that he had darkness all along, so you know.

What about Roxas? He uses Light to fight Sora. Would Zexion's Sora illusion also count?

I'm pretty sure Light can be used to hurt anyone regardless of their alignment, its a magical force of nature. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Saga villain is someone aligned with the Light.
 

Veritas7340

New member
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
362
What about Roxas? He uses Light to fight Sora. Would Zexion's Sora illusion also count?

I'm pretty sure Light can be used to hurt anyone regardless of their alignment, its a magical force of nature. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Saga villain is someone aligned with the Light.

Oh, that was my bad; thanks for pointing that out. What I meant to say is that light hasn't been shown to corrupt people into wanting to hurt people.

As for Zexion's illusion.... tough call. I think it may be an illusion of light rather than light itself.

Roxas is a pretty good counterexample though, props.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,615
Awards
5
I think it'd be more accurate to say that Light doesn't corrupt the same way as Darkness would, it can't, their opposing forces however to much of anything can be bad.
If Eraqus is anything to go by, being to close to the light while surprising your darkness and hating the darkness while doing so can cause you to fall into absolutes.

It was this type of "absolute" corruption that lead to Eraqus' downfall. MX knew Eraqus only thought in absolutes, he couldn't see the "grey area" of the universe and even mentions it in his reports when he's detailing his plan to take Ventus to him so Ven's light can flourish.
It was also Eraqus blinded belief and denial of the truth that light and dark is a must that lead him to attack and try to kill not only Ventus but also Terra for simply trying to defend him. (his anger only growing as Terra called to his darkness)

Had Eraqus kept his head he'd have been far more useful to his students and may have very well helped avert the whole events that followed. Falling pray to his blinded ideals lead to his battling Terra which ended with MX literally stabbing him in the back. Falling pray to his blinded ideals caused him to only further MX's plan than seeing the urgency and trying to help his students halt the plans.

It was also Eraqus' misguided belief that caused Aqua to nearly go and more or less attack/massacre Cinderella's step family. (the fairy godmother thankfully stopped her)

Light doesn't corrupt or corrosive like darkness but it is blinding.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top