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Too much KH2 hate?



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I'm the type that replays games and a die hard SoNami fan so I had fun replaying the games and watching all the implications of Namine trying to warn Sora and go as far as push him back :p I can appreciate the pacing a bit better now as it's not like the Disney games were detached completely from the plot - they were a means to an end.
If anything I blame the way the worlds were set up in the room-system, not even the actual battle system. That was tedious x.x I'm all up for non-linear, lengthy worlds but those were worse than linear as they were repetitive and had no point whatsoever.
 

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I can see where Making the memories more confusing would add to the story. By the end of the game, even already, Sora's head's pretty fucked. Imagine how it would be if each world got progressively more confusing and possibly further from the truth. Sora would be just above suicidal and the appearance of Twilight Town would be a blast of emotional fresh air. Namine appearing would at first make Sora question Kairi's existence, before forgetting her, and the whole story would be a mass of confusion and chaos, only to have Namine explain it all in the end.
 

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Many reasons.

The story is a huge and convoluted mess. It tries to accomplish far too much. At first you're introduced to Roxas and his story, which is fine and dandy, except the three hour prologue becomes completely tedious. What's more, after all the hype surrounding his character, you only got to use him for three hours, and then he disappeared until the very end of the game. But that's not all.

The Organization is made out to be an enormous threat in the game, and yet they're barely seen. You don't get a good idea of their motives or personality in the same way that you did in CoM. No, instead, there's Pete and Maleficent.

While Pete is an alright character, I felt that his role was unnecessary. Rather than have him dawdle around, the Organization could have simply manipulated the Disney villains and others more prominently throughout the game. And Maleficent? Her role was so watered down. Gone was the delightfully manipulative and cunning villain; she barely appeared in the first place, but if they had to bring her back, they should have done so with a lot more dignity, IMO.

The Disney worlds are just movie retreads, for the most part. With a few exceptions, such as Space Paranoids, they're essentially the movie in a nutshell with KH characters inserted into them. Whereas KH1 and, later, BBS, often have elements from the films, the plots of their world adaptations still were integral to the plot, especially in the case of the first game. In KH1 the Disney villains all worked together to accomplish a single goal. In KH2 they had absolutely nothing to do with each other, which made the story seem far more disjointed.


Characterization was generally flat, too. Sora didn't really grow or develop like he did in the first game. The only thing that changed was that he became incredibly angry at times. Otherwise he was infinitely more flat than the first game. Likewise, Riku's character suffered in my mind, though at least in his case there was some development, albeit barely anything shown during the game.

I do like Kairi in KH2 because she had a bit more backbone, and some characters such as the Twilight Town gang were fun, but a few gems won't make up for the rest of it.

Granted, the game did get better storywise once Hollow Bastion was revisited, but was it really necessary to revisit every single world? If they were going to do world retreads, they could have done so in a way that was.. more meaningful, I guess. When the Org showed up in these worlds they were there for a split second and gone, or so it seemed.

Big problem with KH2: CoM was barely referred to at all. I know Sora forgot, and that's fine, but Riku remembered, and the "Thank Naminé" line in the journal was referred to once (except in Final Mix). I think it would have been much more charming to have more CoM references and maybe even Sora meeting Naminé rather than her just appearing for Roxas to talk to. Riku Replica wasn't even mentioned, which, while somewhat understandable, is kind of lame considering his importance to the game's plot. A journal entry would have been nice at the very least.

And Naminé's character seemed to pull a complete 180 in my mind. She just seemed like another Kairi, and I hate how they pushed Roxas/Naminé just because they're Sora and Kairi's Nobodies. They barely even knew each other. I think in general the game could have been more subtle about implications, anyway. BBS had practically no romantic hints for its main cast, and I liked that.

Moving away from story, there's the gameplay.

While reaction commands were fun in their own right, you could perform them simply by button mashing. There was no challenge.

Furthermore, you lost a lot of awesome abilities from the first game (except in Final Mix), like Dodge Roll, strike raid, arcanium, and so on. Drives were another fun concept, but also made things a bit too easy, if you ask me.

Cure was an insta-heal that sapped up all your MP, and you had to wait for it to come back. I preferred it in KH1, where different levels of cure healed different amounts of HP, and you could regain MP by getting hit or attacking other enemies. The absence of sells like aero, gravity, and stop was also a shame.

But honestly, the battle system wasn't that bad. I enjoyed it for the most part. It's the rest of the gameplay that honestly bugs me, other than Gummi missions, which were an improvement.

The world layouts were just so linear. In KH1 you could explore the worlds, interact with them, and they were just a lot bigger. There were puzzles you had to solve, and fun little bonuses like trinities and dalmatians.

KH2 took all that away. There was virtually no platforming, and you just went from one area to the next, fighting enemies. That took a lot of the fun away. I adore Hollow Bastion in KH1 because you can just go on a jolly romp, enjoying its massive environment, and the map was initially a huge challenge. TWTNW...was not. It had no real puzzles to solve. HB was basically the climax of KH1, and it showed. KH2's climax was just cutscenes and battles. :/

tl;dr: Sloppy story, linear worlds, and easy gameplay are my biggest qualms.

...Though I do like the new stuff in KH2 Final Mix. Cavern at least has some platforming, which is fun to play through.
 

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I do like Kairi in KH2 because she had a bit more backbone

I find it hard to agree to this as it's not that Kairi seemed to realize what was going on that she decided to do things despite it. Specifically what she tells Sora after they get reunited and get somewhat of a chance for some R&R. The girl was pretty certain Riku and Sora really were out adventuring even though KH1 and even KH2 itself didn't really give her much of basis for that, and it's not after the Saix battle that she started singing a different tune.
Only then kicks in what you call her backbone and she's intent on going with Sora and Riku to fight Xemnas.
That's not backbone, imo.
That's stupidity. It's stupidity, the lack of ability to pay attention to your surroundings and beyond that no knowledge at all of her abilities.
If she needed Riku to act as her human shield against a lesser enemy, I fail to see why she'd be of any true help against the final boss :\
Also, it's not really like in KH1 she lacked backbone. It's not like she tagged along in KH2 because she managed to convince Sora to take her along or anything. I will give her that moment's hesitation in HB when Riku told her, Donald and Goofy to run (she at least seemed more confused by the situation than KH2's oblivios Kairi) and wanting to protect HeartlesSora. So it's not like she actually got any backbone - it's just that this time due to circumstances Sora couldn't leave her behind.
It's not like KH1 Kairi wouldn't have swung a Keyblade if she had one. She just didn't have one to swing.
Yes I'm defending KH1 Kairi because to me she's the lesser evil quality wise :v

but was it really necessary to revisit every single world?

It wasn't necessary to clear every single world, iirc. So, uh.

Riku Replica wasn't even mentioned, which, while somewhat understandable, is kind of lame considering his importance to the game's plot.

Hate to break it to you but Repliku had basically no impact on the game's plot sans Riku's character development. And while that does have merit, it's on a much lesser scale than what you make him out to be. If any clone was important at all in the long run it's Xion and even then, time will tell how and how much.

And Naminé's character seemed to pull a complete 180 in my mind. She just seemed like another Kairi, and I hate how they pushed Roxas/Naminé just because they're Sora and Kairi's Nobodies. They barely even knew each other. I think in general the game could have been more subtle about implications, anyway.

ILU <3
But I still say Namine didn't really care about Roxas, at least not in any sense it'd be a mildly healthy relationship. She was only after him to get Sora to wake up, and after Days came out - because she promised Xion. Beyond that are Namine's own issues and an attempt to find a somewhat more pathetic being than she herself.
Not quite the best basis for romance imo, especially not when it all comes back to "you're a part of Sora". It all leads back to SoNami (and whether or not that leads back to SoKai I'll leave it to you, I'll stick to Namine saying that SoNami made SoKai "stronger", so basically any SoKai post CoM is SoNami related, yey <3)

In KH1 you could explore the worlds, interact with them, and they were just a lot bigger.

I'm not sure the worlds were bigger in KH1. Some KH2 worlds were HUGE. The difference lies mostly, imo, in the fact that KH1 had many smaller "rooms" whereas KH2 "excelled" in huge open-air halls. See Hollow Bastion, Land of Dragons and the Pride Lands for good examples.
 

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The story is a huge and convoluted mess. It tries to accomplish far too much.

That's pretty much a complaint for the series in general at this point.

IMO, Pete and Maleficent probably shouldn't have been in the game, especially considering they weren't even really that important anyway. They could have focused a little more in the Organization instead and the plot would have been more streamlined for it.
 
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That's pretty much a complaint for the series in general at this point.

IMO, Pete and Maleficent probably shouldn't have been in the game, especially considering they weren't even really that important anyway. They could have focused a little more in the Organization instead and the plot would have been more streamlined for it.

Or streamlined the Organization from the beginning.
 

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KH2.....I enjoyed it for the most part. the whole Pete thing was pretty annoying to say the least. The storyline, I kind of understand the way it tied in. But they didn't make it a big part of the storyline, most of the worlds had a couple coming together. the problem was it was a big deal. it just reminded Sora of Kairi. I admit that Xemnas was pretty lame as a final boss. as far as the statement about HB in KH1 and TWTNW in KH2. It is very easy to say that they were different. but I think its because the difference between the storylines of the two games. I agree that TWTNW could have been much better. but for what they wanted, it was fine. The drive abilities gave KH2 a new feel and I think it was incorperated for the times in KH1 were you ran right into the fights in a way and you were right there in the boss of a world and you just kept dieing around the same part. The "auto" forms gave you a kind of fun way to get back in the fight when you were against the wall. The worlds were great....except Atlantca......wtf was that? pathetic way to give a side world. better off staying with the disney castle. the difficulty did change a little.. its just they didn't spread around the stronger heartless and nobodies like in the first one where the heartless got stronger after the first HB level. The whole Roxas thing could have been more developed. And as far as Organization 13 in the storyline. it was good that they didn't put too much into the story in the beginning because you don't know what they are up to. and once you find out that Sora is helping the Organization, they start to come into the picture. That I agree with. Could have been more developed with the Characters though. I never played FM so I don't know whats different in that one. But over all KH2 was an extention of what they probibly wanted to do with the first game and didn't put it in. The magic in KH2. agree that it was dumbed down a lot. I never really used them at all.....ever. I think that it was a great game though. I've beat it twice and working on my third, along with beating KH:CoM. Just can't beat Riku then Larxene on 13 floor. XD lol.
 

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Also, it's not really like in KH1 she lacked backbone. It's not like she tagged along in KH2 because she managed to convince Sora to take her along or anything. I will give her that moment's hesitation in HB when Riku told her, Donald and Goofy to run (she at least seemed more confused by the situation than KH2's oblivios Kairi) and wanting to protect HeartlesSora. So it's not like she actually got any backbone - it's just that this time due to circumstances Sora couldn't leave her behind.
It's not like KH1 Kairi wouldn't have swung a Keyblade if she had one. She just didn't have one to swing.
Yes I'm defending KH1 Kairi because to me she's the lesser evil quality wise :v

Point made-- and I actually do prefer KH1 Kairi for the most part because she just has a lot more spunk, especially at the start of the game, whereas KH2 tried to make her uber girly. I guess the better way of putting it was that it seemed like they were trying to have her do more. Stuff like standing up to Saix is mostly what came to mind, but she was pretty stubborn in KH1's HB, too, wanting to go back for Sora and Riku.

So, rather than have her be comatose, it was nice to see them /try/, even if it was still poorly handled. I'd love to see Kairi get the Aqua-treatment, though, as well as veering more towards her KH1 personality in terms of spunk.

I'm not sure the worlds were bigger in KH1. Some KH2 worlds were HUGE. The difference lies mostly, imo, in the fact that KH1 had many smaller "rooms" whereas KH2 "excelled" in huge open-air halls. See Hollow Bastion, Land of Dragons and the Pride Lands for good examples.

Well, some of the worlds were big, I guess, but they were so...flat. I didn't get that sense of exploration that I got from the original Kingdom Hearts, because of the linearity. And some worlds were pretty small, such as Olympus, but then you had stuff like the Cave of Wonders, HB, and End of the World.
 

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So, rather than have her be comatose, it was nice to see them /try/, even if it was still poorly handled. I'd love to see Kairi get the Aqua-treatment, though, as well as veering more towards her KH1 personality in terms of spunk.

Sadly, at this point, after 6 games of having done nothing with her, I can't see that as anything less than complete and utter rewrite. Especially if they turn her into an Aqua-wannabe.
I actually would prefer it if they went with either the Namine direction (non-fighter with ridiculous plot importance) or the Xion direction (non Deus Ex Machina fighter all the time with high development and tight relations to her friends and their stories). At the very least it'll make a slightly more logical direction of development from what we had so far than to turn her into something so "grand".
 

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Sadly, at this point, after 6 games of having done nothing with her, I can't see that as anything less than complete and utter rewrite. Especially if they turn her into an Aqua-wannabe.

Oh, I'd rather not have her with too large of a role combat-wise. Enough people have Keyblades as is, and slapping a giant key into someone's hand doesn't make them automatically awesome. When I said Aqua-treatment, I just mean in terms of screen time and stuff.

More over, I just want her to serve more of a purpose than token female. What I'd really like to see is for her to interact with more people than just Sora constantly. Give me scenes with her and Riku and some of the Disney characters, man. I think if KH took the BBS approach and tried to avoid pushing 'subtext' and whatnot, Kairi'd have a lot more opportunities to shine.
 

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Oh, I'd rather not have her with too large of a role combat-wise. Enough people have Keyblades as is, and slapping a giant key into someone's hand doesn't make them automatically awesome. When I said Aqua-treatment, I just mean in terms of screen time and stuff.

I didn't play BBs but seeing how both Namine and Xion got lots of screen time and development and plot importance at least for the duration of their own games (Xion) if not further (Namine established, Xion likely), it's not that Kairi needs the Aqua-treatment. She just needs non-Kairi treatment XD;
Hell even Olette was better developed than her in a sense that didn't need fanfic authors to give proper meaning to her actions, which is kind of sad.

More over, I just want her to serve more of a purpose than token female. What I'd really like to see is for her to interact with more people than just Sora constantly. Give me scenes with her and Riku and some of the Disney characters, man.

ILU ;w; I do I do.

I think if KH took the BBS approach and tried to avoid pushing 'subtext' and whatnot, Kairi'd have a lot more opportunities to shine.

I think you got it the other way around. It's not that they tried pushing subtext - it's that they tried basing things by stating them bluntly without really basing them.
See - Riku and Kairi too being childhood friends when both said things that can be interpreted as "hey Sora, ditch the other person and let's go just the two of us" on more than one occasion.
See - Namine telling Sora Kairi was his most important person. In KH1, Kairi was another person on Sora's "to save" list with the debatable issue of her Heart being inside his Body and thus messing up basically everything that could amount to true proper SoKai until very deep into the game - and then he left her behind. And then we have Sora's behavior towards Namine vs. his behavior towards Kairi that doesn't mount up. but hey, Namine SAID so, so it HAS to be true, right?

If they bothered doing anything with Kairi beyond "the girl Sora needs to save so he MUST love her" and did what they did with Namine, being "the girl Sora cares for so he saves her", they might've also based things other than Kairi's obsession towards Sora :v

See, that's the thing about subtext - it's something you draw out of something else that might not necessarily relate to what the subtext is about. And therefore had it been true subtext, there would've been more development about other things that most likely would've related back to Kairi. But they tried to shove SoKai down our throats and therefore sacrificed so much on its alter.
See, KH2's anticipated SoNami reunion that went to hell so they could base SoKai through RokuNami, for instance.

Grah.
 

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The problem is Kairi as her character as it is now can't develop much when she's cut off from everyone else for most of the game. And since the games entail adventuring that would mean she would have to start adventuring herself. Which would probably entail her developing some kind of fighting skills.

Will that make her totally different from how she appeared previously? Yeah. Is that necesserily a bad thing? I don't think so.
 

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I think you got it the other way around. It's not that they tried pushing subtext - it's that they tried basing things by stating them bluntly without really basing them.
See - Riku and Kairi too being childhood friends when both said things that can be interpreted as "hey Sora, ditch the other person and let's go just the two of us" on more than one occasion.
See - Namine telling Sora Kairi was his most important person. In KH1, Kairi was another person on Sora's "to save" list with the debatable issue of her Heart being inside his Body and thus messing up basically everything that could amount to true proper SoKai until very deep into the game - and then he left her behind. And then we have Sora's behavior towards Namine vs. his behavior towards Kairi that doesn't mount up. but hey, Namine SAID so, so it HAS to be true, right?

If they bothered doing anything with Kairi beyond "the girl Sora needs to save so he MUST love her" and did what they did with Namine, being "the girl Sora cares for so he saves her", they might've also based things other than Kairi's obsession towards Sora :v
Eh I'm a sucker for romance. I just hate what they did to Kairi in KH they pretty much just thrusted the role of DiD on her then tried to remedy it by giving her a keyblade and a 15 clip of her hitting two shadows GAHHHHH!!!!!!

See, that's the thing about subtext - it's something you draw out of something else that might not necessarily relate to what the subtext is about. And therefore had it been true subtext, there would've been more development about other things that most likely would've related back to Kairi. But they tried to shove SoKai down our throats and therefore sacrificed so much on its alter.
See, KH2's anticipated SoNami reunion that went to hell so they could base SoKai through RokuNami, for instance.
Hey at least they had a KaiNami reunion that gotta count for something.
 

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The problem is Kairi as her character as it is now can't develop much when she's cut off from everyone else for most of the game. And since the games entail adventuring that would mean she would have to start adventuring herself. Which would probably entail her developing some kind of fighting skills.

Namine got most of her development while being held hostage, first by the Organization and then by Diz since she had to help Sora. There's no reason why they couldn't have developed her in KH1 after they finally found her even in Traverse Town, or after the Organization caught her in KH2. Hell, Kh2 in its entirety was a good chance to develop Kairi since unlike in KH1, she was conscious, and further unlike the other games, she actually did come into contact with other characters and changed settings. However, all the scenes we got to see her in amounted to Kairi thinking about Sora and the plot advancing with her as the device, without her getting actual development or even in sight.
I mean, HPO and Kairi's talk. I think that even if she truly did talk only about Sora (as can be understood from Hayner needing to hear who Riku was from Sora) there would've been more value, imo, to actually hear what she told them.
It's not as much that Kairi didn't get chances for development or insight. It's just that even when she was released by Namine, her own Nobody, and reunited with Riku, her childhood friend who transformed into the same villain who kidnapped her and the rest of the Princesses in KH1 - we got to see nothing of that. NOTHING. They fast forwarded to when she jumped off a balcony for Sora. So I kind of doubt tying Kairi in more to elements other than Sora or getting her off the islands would help, so long as they keep treating Kairi as they did so far. The potential is there, when all is said and done - they just use it to wipe where the sun won't shine.

Will that make her totally different from how she appeared previously? Yeah. Is that necesserily a bad thing? I don't think so.

Assuming they base it, of course. Even drastic character changes aren't bad. But again - so long as they base it. Hell, they didn't even explain how Kairi ended up as KH2 Kairi from Kh1 Kairi (and as much as the Memory mishaps can explain it - there's us saying it might've happened and there's them bothering to say it happened and thus show they give a damn about this character), which is what makes it into rewrite and not development. And rewrite is bad. It's the writers telling us that basically, they screwed up with this character and have no other ideas of how to redeem her.

Eh I'm a sucker for romance. I just hate what they did to Kairi in KH they pretty much just thrusted the role of DiD on her then tried to remedy it by giving her a keyblade and a 15 clip of her hitting two shadows GAHHHHH!!!!!!

I'm a sucker for romance too. Hence why SoNami gets me time and again with Sora's "smile for my sake" speech :3~
As for the Keyblade issue though, eh XD; and I still say it's not her own Keyblade for various reasons, despite it all :D

Hey at least they had a KaiNami reunion that gotta count for something.

1) reunion takes place between two people that have met before. Hence the "re".
2) ...no they didn't. They met, ran around a bit, and the details of why Kairi trusted Namine, what they talked about, and where Namine even truly disappeared to and how were never bothered with.
So yeah. It doesn't count to squat.
 

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You guys are always saying that the Disney worlds were irrelevant to the KH2 plot, but I think that CoM's Disney worlds are useless too.

The CoM Castle Oblivion storyline was amazing though.
 

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You guys are always saying that the Disney worlds were irrelevant to the KH2 plot, but I think that CoM's Disney worlds are useless too.

As I love to point out, if you pay attention to the Disney worlds' plots during replay, you'll notice many things that actually relate back to the plot. Each and every world has some element of SoNami's general story, be it blunt things like Oogie Boogie being terrified by his "True Memories" or Aerith telling Sora to not trust his Memories, through hintings of events to follow like in Neverland with Wendy wanting to leave and Peter resenting her at first to Monstro with the undying will to be with those you love, regardless of the shackles and bounds you'll be putting yourself under.
As such elements can be found within basically every Disney world, I manage to find rather a lot of value in them, at the very least - more than what KH2 had to offer.
 

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Oh, I'd rather not have her with too large of a role combat-wise. Enough people have Keyblades as is, and slapping a giant key into someone's hand doesn't make them automatically awesome.

Enough people have keyblades as is? Why is everyone so opposed to more characters getting Keyblades? Is it really that awful? The Keyblade is one of the biggest plot elements of the KH series (next to Kingdom Hearts of course).
 

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Enough people have keyblades as is? Why is everyone so opposed to more characters getting Keyblades? Is it really that awful? The Keyblade is one of the biggest plot elements of the KH series (next to Kingdom Hearts of course).

Maybe because the fact Sora was kind of the chosen one from the get go, besides the fact Mickey has one and Riku was supposed to have the keyblade. There were just two wielders in KH1 and CoM. All of the sudden, several more appear. Wouldn't this seem a bit annoying to you?
 
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The problem is Kairi as her character as it is now can't develop much when she's cut off from everyone else for most of the game. And since the games entail adventuring that would mean she would have to start adventuring herself. Which would probably entail her developing some kind of fighting skills.

Will that make her totally different from how she appeared previously? Yeah. Is that necesserily a bad thing? I don't think so.

I think turning her into Aqua would be a bad thing, but just giving her fighting abilities isn't enough to really call it an "aqua-wannabe". Aqua has a very different personality than Kairi.


But...

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

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Enough people have keyblades as is? Why is everyone so opposed to more characters getting Keyblades? Is it really that awful? The Keyblade is one of the biggest plot elements of the KH series (next to Kingdom Hearts of course).

That's exactly the point though, why people should not get Keyblades left and right. Because getting one should actually mean something. And, yeah, excuse me if I think that
Spoiler Spoiler Show

Namine doesn't have a Keyblade because plot wise, she doesn't need one.
Donald and Goofy don't have Keyblades because plot wise, they don't need one.
Too many other characters in the series even now lack Keyblades - because they don't need one.
Sora got a Keyblade for a good reason.
Roxas and Xion and Riku got Keyblades for good reasons.
Aqua, Terra and Ven are Keyblade Apprentices, and MX is a Keyblade MASTER. They have their plot reasons.
If anyone else at this point in the series gets a Keyblade, for half as lame a reason as what I put in the spoilers, then yes, it's bad and should be avoided at all costs. I know the main characters are supposed to have strong Hearts and what not but if EVERYONE ended up with Keyblades and strong Hearts it kind of kills the effect.
Sora at the get go was alluring because he was the only Keyblade Wielder.
Riku was in a tug-o-war with him which made it interesting, and he got his development and quality as a character because of his weakness.

Giving a Keyblade to just anyone over any poor reasons isn't contributing to the plot - it's admitting they're running out of ideas.

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I actually don't mind that last effect you mentioned. Part of what I liked about Namine was that when push comes to shove, as stupid as it ended up being, she let Sora and Repliku run on ahead because it showed she knew she won't be of much help, and fixing Repliku was more important.
It's also one of the things I did like about Kairi in KH2 on the conceptual level that they killed by trying to shove SoKai in there - Kairi being just what you said - the person waiting at home for Sora and Riku to come back to. She was the person Sora saw as waiting for both him and Riku, and his KH1 promise was basically to bring Riku back home to Kairi. She sent him the letter and eventually reminded him and Riku where they belonged, and at the final scene showed Sora, through the wall drawing, that yes - Sora still had a place to come back to because if no one else would (mostly because they didn't bother developing anyone else >_>; ), Kairi'd still be there, waiting for him, keeping a place for him to come back to.
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