Vanitas as next series villain

[Zettaflare]

To be optimistic, that could change with KH3 if they decide too develope him more, but yeah, as he is now there's not much that's makes him interesting as the potential main villain of the next saga.

He could get development in KH3, but I wouldn't want him as the main villian for the second saga for reasons aside from he is(currently) a flat character


I want the main villian of the next saga to have ZERO connections with any of the characters or events of the previous saga. Vanitas or any other antagonist from the Xehanort saga being the antagonist of the second saga would feel off to me

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

Actually, they are still somewhat relevant because they're also an option in making the X-Blade, so Xehanort will go after them if he can't gather the seven lights. The issue is that the PoH shouldn't have been as irrelevant as they are up until this point considering the mythos and are just an example of how Disney as a whole hasn't been well integrated into the series.

Anyway, Vanitas...

And as I understand it, aren't they the "new Kingdom Hearts", so to speak? As they "make up all the Light in the world, and should they fall, Darkness will consume the world once again". Or something like that...

And though I certainly wouldn't be against more crazy crossover potential, isn't there a chance Disney wouldn't allow that? I seem to remember Tai Yasue saying something similar to the fact when he was promoting DDD.

Personally, I want the Disney to make a presence again. I know people have said this a lot, but I think The Horned King from The Black Cauldron would be a great main antagonist for the next Saga. Or perhaps even Davy Jones from Pirates? There are so many great possibilities in the Disney lore, so I hope the fact that they dug deep in including Julius in 3D is hints of what's to come.

About Vanitas: If they're not going to go the Disney route for the next antagonist, I wouldn't mind if Vanitas was the Big Bad. I've thought about it before, and I think it could work. -shrugs- But like everyone has already said, he should probably be developed before that happens (perhaps by using things like how he was written in the novels), but I could see him working well, if given that chance.

However, I do think it'd probably be best if the next Saga was a clean slate, and didn't have too many connections to the Dark Seeker Chronicles ( i.e. that the new players shouldn't have to know a ton of details about the last Saga, in order to completely understand the current one).

 

[KeybladeGuy]

I'm curious to see if they're going to do anything more with Maleficent - She's been in every game to date somehow.

 

[gamerobber7]

Personally, I want the Disney to make a presence again. I know people have said this a lot, but I think The Horned King from The Black Cauldron would be a great main antagonist for the next Saga. Or perhaps even Davy Jones from Pirates? There are so many great possibilities in the Disney lore, so I hope the fact that they dug deep in including Julius in 3D is hints of what's to come.

About Vanitas: If they're not going to go the Disney route for the next antagonist, I wouldn't mind if Vanitas was the Big Bad. I've thought about it before, and I think it could work. -shrugs- But like everyone has already said, he should probably be developed before that happens (perhaps by using things like how he was written in the novels), but I could see him working well, if given that chance.

However, I do think it'd probably be best if the next Saga was a clean slate, and didn't have too many connections to the Dark Seeker Chronicles ( i.e. that the new players shouldn't have to know a ton of details about the last Saga, in order to completely understand the current one).

You know what with MX being all over the series and being the main villain I never really thought about a Disney villain being the main one for the next saga. While I would welcome it I don't think they will go that route and instead use another original character. Though if Maleficent never gets back to her dominant power and position from KH1 then The Horned King could be a great new leader for the Disney villains.

Something I thought of since Vanitas is a part of Ventus (being his darkness) would the destruction of either one lead to the destruction of the other?

 

[zspek09]

Yeah, it's like, they were there and that's it. Heck, you barely even see them again in their respective worlds in Kingdom Hearts 2...

Just...yes? They are an option just like how Vanitas and Ven were an option in making the X-Blade (albeit, a frail one). That's part of what makes the battle near unaviodable, if the heros refuse to fight, Xehanort will just go after the princesses because their pure hearts together are the equivalent of the power of KH, which makes them more than duable.



Ven hasn't awoken yet and the status of Vanitas is unknown. Ven smiling was a reaction to Sora's feelings of happiness

I really hope you're joking lol. Vanitas cannot EXIST without Ven. He isn't his own entity. That is why when Ven killed Vanitas in BBS, Ven became unconscious. With Vanitas back that means the darkness that was once separated from Ven has now returned, allowing Vanitas to be reborn.

 

[Ruran]

I really hope you're joking lol. Vanitas cannot EXIST without Ven. He isn't his own entity. That is why when Ven killed Vanitas in BBS, Ven became unconscious. With Vanitas back that means the darkness that was once separated from Ven has now returned, allowing Vanitas to be reborn.

Joking about what? All I said was that the current status of Vanitas is unknown. We don't know what happened to Vanitas after Ven defeated him; if he went back to Ven and fell to sleep, if his heart drifted off elsewhere seeking shelter as Ven's heart did, or if his conscious was completely obliterated. Vanitas is his own being though, how tightly his connection is with Ven doesn't hamper that. Ven falling to sleep after defeating Vanitas was because their hearts became intertwined when Vanitas tried to force their fusion, so Ven had to shatter their partially shared heart in the process.

 

[zspek09]

Yeah, it's like, they were there and that's it. Heck, you barely even see them again in their respective worlds in Kingdom Hearts 2...

Joking about what? All I said was that the current status of Vanitas is unknown. We don't know what happened to Vanitas after Ven defeated him; if he went back to Ven and fell to sleep, if his heart drifted off elsewhere seeking shelter as Ven's heart did, or if his conscious was completely obliterated. Vanitas is his own being though, how tightly his connection is with Ven doesn't hamper that. Ven falling to sleep after defeating Vanitas was because their hearts became intertwined when Vanitas tried to force their fusion, so Ven had to shatter their partially shared heart in the process.

No. Ven fought and defeated Vanitas. When Vanitas was defeated Ven became unconscious. Vanitas cannot exist without Ven. The darkness that resided inside Sora was Ven's armor. It is what was needed to wake Ven up, so by Riku defeating the armor, he woke Sora up and subsequently woke Ven up as well.

 

[Ruran]

No. Ven fought and defeated Vanitas. When Vanitas was defeated Ven became unconscious. Vanitas cannot exist without Ven. The darkness that resided inside Sora was Ven's armor. It is what was needed to wake Ven up, so by Riku defeating the armor, he woke Sora up and subsequently woke Ven up as well.

It was never established if Ven and Vanitas could survive without each other under normal circumstances, their final fight was a special case because their hearts were partially fused so defeating Vanitas ment Ven had to fracture his heart in the process. Ven is not awake and defeating the armour has nothing to do with waking him. The smile at the end was because Ven could sense Sora's happiness from reuniting with his Dream Eaters. It's more so to show how deeply sora and Ven are connected.

 

[zspek09]

Yeah, it's like, they were there and that's it. Heck, you barely even see them again in their respective worlds in Kingdom Hearts 2...

It was never established if Ven and Vanitas could survive without each other under normal circumstances, their final fight was a special case because their hearts were partially fused so defeating Vanitas ment Ven had to fracture his heart in the process. Ven is not awake and defeating the armour has nothing to do with waking him. The smile at the end was because Ven could sense Sora's happiness from reuniting with his Dream Eaters. It's more so to show how deeply sora and Ven are connected.

No it was definitely established. It was foreshadowed when Vanitas was created for the very first time. MX removed the darkness from Ven to create Vanitas but he did not completely destroy Ven because Ven needed to be alive in order for Vanitas to exist. MX clearly expressed he did not see Ven as fit to complete his task, if Ven was not needed in order for Vanitas to exist and to form the xblade, MX would not have hesitated to destroy him. MX WANTED them to fuse, but instead, Ven defeated Vanitas, which in turn put him to sleep since his darkness was temporarily absent from existence. Light cannot exist without darkness and vice versa, so with Vanitas gone Ven was devoid of Darkness and so slipped into a coma.

 

[Solo]

Nay, it's not that MX needed Ventus alive to sustain Vanitas. Instead, Ventus' survival is necessary for the forging of the X-blade, because hearts of light and darkness must clash against each other. Without Ventus, there would have been no one Vanitas could have fused with.

That's also the reason why Vanitas' decision to finish Ventus off in their first fight was a rash one. It would have been a huge detriment to MX's plans.

It's possible that Vanitas could exist without Ventus just fine. They have become two completely separate entities, similar to (but not the same way as) how it is with Heartless and their Nobody counterparts. They have become disconnected from each other and likely need not the other's survival to sustain themselves.

 

[Ruran]

No it was definitely established. It was foreshadowed when Vanitas was created for the very first time. MX removed the darkness from Ven to create Vanitas but he did not completely destroy Ven because Ven needed to be alive in order for Vanitas to exist. MX clearly expressed he did not see Ven as fit to complete his task, if Ven was not needed in order for Vanitas to exist and to form the xblade, MX would not have hesitated to destroy him. MX WANTED them to fuse, but instead, Ven defeated Vanitas, which in turn put him to sleep since his darkness was temporarily absent from existence. Light cannot exist without darkness and vice versa, so with Vanitas gone Ven was devoid of Darkness and so slipped into a coma.

It was never insinuated that MX kept Ven alive so that Vanitas could survive; since Ven failed in submitting to the darkness and being a new vessel, the new plan hence forth was to use Ven as a component for the X-Blade. Vanitas is the one who saw Ven as not fit enough for the fusion, not MX. MX dumped Ven on ME and had Vanitas lure him away from home in hopes that he would get stronger. Vanitas is the one who saw Ven as too weak, tried to destroy him, and pursued Aqua as a better candidate.

Again, the case with Ven falling to sleep after defeating Vanitas is a special circumstance. Their hearts were partially fused with each other as shown by the incomplete X-Blade. The possibility of both being destroyed if one was taken down wasn't treated as relevant until then. Ven falling to sleep wasn't a result of being devoid of darkness, regardless of his connection to Vanitas, he was devoid of it for years. It was a result of breaking his heart into itty-bitty bits getting to Vanitas and the X-Blade.

 

[kupo1121]

Am I the only one who wouldn't mind a more lighthearted saga? Something a bit less story intensive, and a lot more crossover intensive? Perhaps letting the translation team take some liberties to make the script funnier to us? I want to see things like Jack Skellington rescuing Princess Jasmine, only to scare the crap out of her, much to Aladdin's embarrassment, and more villain interaction.. Nomura'd never do it though.

No, you're definitely not the only one, but the way I see it, it doesn't HAVE to be a lighthearted one. I'd actually enjoy a lighthearted villains as much if not more than I would a dark-hearted one. It's interesting to take what Eraqus kind of thought and expand and exaggerate it to make a villain that is so anti-darkness that they try to rid the world of it (which is impossible because "wherever there is light, there is darkness").

Just no lol, the whole 7 lights vs 13 darknesses in DDD foreshadows the showdown between the heroes and the xehanorts. There is no "option" of MX using PoH. That's literally why the intro to DDD was the 7 lights (keyblade weilders)

The PoH are still important BECAUSE what is stopping the 7 GoL from just running away and saying "Nah, I don't want to fight?" If 1 of the GoL ran away and MX never could find them, how is he going to make the X-Blade (since he doesn't have all 7 GoL) I guess...that's it? His plan is foiled because 1 of the GoL said "teehee, I don't feel like it, I'm leaving, k thx bye." You do realize how big of a flaw that is in his plan, that if all 7 don't fight, his whole plan is over? That's the reason for the PoH, if the 7 GoL don't want to fight, he can go back, capture them, and still make the Xblade. The PoH are the reason the 7 GoL HAVE to fight because if they don't, he'll just get the PoH and harm countless people in the process.

I'm curious to see if they're going to do anything more with Maleficent - She's been in every game to date somehow.

+ A LARGE NUMBER

I honestly want to see a Disney villains take front and center. As dumb as it sounds, I want Maleficent to get a game where she is just honestly the baddest guy out there, nobody controlling her, or using her as a puppet, or anything but she just gets to be what she was always meant to be...a boss kupo kupo.

No it was definitely established. It was foreshadowed when Vanitas was created for the very first time. MX removed the darkness from Ven to create Vanitas but he did not completely destroy Ven because Ven needed to be alive in order for Vanitas to exist. MX clearly expressed he did not see Ven as fit to complete his task, if Ven was not needed in order for Vanitas to exist and to form the xblade, MX would not have hesitated to destroy him. MX WANTED them to fuse, but instead, Ven defeated Vanitas, which in turn put him to sleep since his darkness was temporarily absent from existence. Light cannot exist without darkness and vice versa, so with Vanitas gone Ven was devoid of Darkness and so slipped into a coma.

lol That's how I feel right now. I'm beginning to think you didn't play BbS <_< That bolded part is pretty much the entire focus on this because VEN WAS NEEDED TO MAKE THE X-BLADE!!!! It was literally stated in BbS that in order to form the X-Blade you needed a heart of pure light and pure darkness to face off that were of equal strength (another way to create it). Vanitas was made out of all the darkness in Ven's heart so Ven became the heart of pure light and Vanitas the heart of pure darkness. Why didn't Vanitas just go beat up Aurora, Cinderella, Belle, etc.? You needed the 2 hearts to be EQUAL STRENGTH! Vanitas is far stronger than any of the PoH so by having Ven go through all the worlds, he hoped to they would be equal strength upon their encounter (which they were). Vanitas is really his own being since he's all the darkness in Ven's heart manifested into his own person.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Also, Vanitas clearly could have survived without Ven. Ven was near-death BECAUSE Vanitas had taken too much in the split. That's why Xehanort took Ven to Destiny Islands...as a resting place. He would have faded away had it not been for Sora.

Also, the darkness that was in Ven's armor was the darkness that Sora fell to. Ven's heart protected Sora from getting hurt further. If Ven woke up after that, which he didn't, he wouldn't have been in whatever form he was in Sora's heart to meet Riku on the islands.

 

[Launchpad]

PRO TIP: Sometimes people aren't as knowledgeable as others about certain media franchises. This isn't funny, it's just rude.

 

[zspek09]

Yeah, it's like, they were there and that's it. Heck, you barely even see them again in their respective worlds in Kingdom Hearts 2...

No, you're definitely not the only one, but the way I see it, it doesn't HAVE to be a lighthearted one. I'd actually enjoy a lighthearted villains as much if not more than I would a dark-hearted one. It's interesting to take what Eraqus kind of thought and expand and exaggerate it to make a villain that is so anti-darkness that they try to rid the world of it (which is impossible because "wherever there is light, there is darkness").



The PoH are still important BECAUSE what is stopping the 7 GoL from just running away and saying "Nah, I don't want to fight?" If 1 of the GoL ran away and MX never could find them, how is he going to make the X-Blade (since he doesn't have all 7 GoL) I guess...that's it? His plan is foiled because 1 of the GoL said "teehee, I don't feel like it, I'm leaving, k thx bye." You do realize how big of a flaw that is in his plan, that if all 7 don't fight, his whole plan is over? That's the reason for the PoH, if the 7 GoL don't want to fight, he can go back, capture them, and still make the Xblade. The PoH are the reason the 7 GoL HAVE to fight because if they don't, he'll just get the PoH and harm countless people in the process.



+ A LARGE NUMBER

I honestly want to see a Disney villains take front and center. As dumb as it sounds, I want Maleficent to get a game where she is just honestly the baddest guy out there, nobody controlling her, or using her as a puppet, or anything but she just gets to be what she was always meant to be...a boss kupo kupo.

lol That's how I feel right now. I'm beginning to think you didn't play BbS <_< That bolded part is pretty much the entire focus on this because VEN WAS NEEDED TO MAKE THE X-BLADE!!!! It was literally stated in BbS that in order to form the X-Blade you needed a heart of pure light and pure darkness to face off that were of equal strength (another way to create it). Vanitas was made out of all the darkness in Ven's heart so Ven became the heart of pure light and Vanitas the heart of pure darkness. Why didn't Vanitas just go beat up Aurora, Cinderella, Belle, etc.? You needed the 2 hearts to be EQUAL STRENGTH! Vanitas is far stronger than any of the PoH so by having Ven go through all the worlds, he hoped to they would be equal strength upon their encounter (which they were). Vanitas is really his own being since he's all the darkness in Ven's heart manifested into his own person.

Darkness can't exist without light correct? Vanitas is pure darkness correct? THUS, Vanitas CAN'T exist without Ventus. This is just dumb obvious now.

 

[Solo]

If light and darkness were that intertwined to the point that one could not exist without the other, how, then, would you explain the existence of the Princesses of Hearts, whose hearts are completely devoid of even a speck of darkness? Or little children, whose hearts are said to be filled with nothing else but light? Or even Pureblood Heartless, creatures born out of pure darkness?

Vanitas and Ventus were separate entities who did not share a single lifeline of existence. If they did, then the splitting wouldn't have worked because as Tinny said, Ventus was all but dying after it took place and that would have spelt the end for Vanitas too.

 

[Ruran]

Not to mention that there's also the existence of Nobodies who are "nothing". While the rule about darkness and light needing each other to exist is important, it isn't THAT literal. It's more complicated when it comes to living beings because they obviously consist of more than just light and darkness. Ven and Vanitas have hearts of pure light and darkness respectively, but their beings also consist of more-memories, emotions, opinions, life experiences, etc that allows them to exist on their own outside of being merely pure light and darkness.

Basically, while having hearts of pure light and darkness are important features, they're not so dictated by them that they're forced to be intertwined because the laws of the universe also say they those with strong enough individualities should be able to exist beyond that.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Darkness can't exist without light correct? Vanitas is pure darkness correct? THUS, Vanitas CAN'T exist without Ventus. This is just dumb obvious now.

You just don't get it, do you?
After the creation of Vanitas Master Xehanort dumped Ventus on Destiny Islands because he was totally certain that Ven was done for and would never recover.
If Vanitas' existence would be really dependent on Ventus, he would have been already done for as well right from the start because Ven was dying/fading when MX brought him to the islands in the Prologue.
It was only the intervention of Sora's newborn heart that saved Ventus.

Vanitas HIMSELF tried to destroy Ven after their first encounter during BBS. So unless Vanitas was suicidal this move would not make any sense.

If you really played both BBS and DDD you would know about how hearts work and that even pieces of hearts are capable of growing into full hearts, regardless of the elemental makeup of that heart.
Like Ruran said, you're taking the "light and dark can't exist without each other"-rule too literal here.

 

[Norpthalomus]

I read some of the posts and I see that the discussion has shifted substantially to more about the Ventus/Vanitas dynamic, but back on with Vanitas being a villian:

I sort of assumed he would be one of the Thirteen Darknesses, and I hope that's the role he plays. I assume he'll come back (since he made extremely brief cameos in 3D). Vanitas works better as an underling because he's had no development. But, I suppose that's what they were going for, considering Vanitas is "pure darkness" anyway.

 

[Ruran]

I read some of the posts and I see that the discussion has shifted substantially to more about the Ventus/Vanitas dynamic, but back on with Vanitas being a villian:

I sort of assumed he would be one of the Thirteen Darknesses, and I hope that's the role he plays. I assume he'll come back (since he made extremely brief cameos in 3D). Vanitas works better as an underling because he's had no development. But, I suppose that's what they were going for, considering Vanitas is "pure darkness" anyway.

Indeed it has and I'm glad it's getting bakc on track.

He'll most likely be one of the Darknesess and while I think it's be nice to get more development on him, he runs into that issue that if he's included in KH3 there simply wouldn't be much room without half-assing it. So he probably will remain an underling till the end.

Presuming that Vanitas does survive until the next saga though, if they want to continue building him up as a villain, the story could revolve around his slow rise. I can't see it happening it, but hypothetically speaking, the next saga could be the "Vanitas Saga" and where the Xehanort Saga is about a villain who already left a big footprint, the next one could feature the villain just getting their start and attempting to make an even bigger one.