What if Eraqus was one of the 13th Darknesses?

[Xehanort-X-blade]

i don't have alot to say except since eraqus alive inside terranort heart could it be eraqus one of them?

 

[Draxem]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

There's nothing at all to suggest he is going to be one of the darkness's. In my opinion, Eraqus is a character that really should stay dead, his role has been passed onto Aqua now.

 

[Ruran]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

I doubt it, especially since it's been established that Eraqus' presence is what helps keep Terra from completely losing himself.

 

[Xehanort-X-blade]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

There's nothing at all to suggest he is going to be one of the darkness's. In my opinion, Eraqus is a character that really should stay dead, his role has been passed onto Aqua now.

death's in KH? draxem no one dies in KH except disney villains so eraqus not dead

 

[robvandam111]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

death's in KH? draxem no one dies in KH except disney villains so eraqus not dead

Well, in the games. Disney villains don't die...for now.

 

[Xehanort-X-blade]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

Well, in the games. Disney villains don't die...for now.

if you play again you can see they die don't know how to spell them right but anyway 1 oogie boogy 2 frollo 3 ursule i think she won't come back after that attack in KH2 we might see her sister instead 4 scar 5 jafar since his lamp was destroyed in KH2

 

[Gram]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

death's in KH? draxem no one dies in KH except disney villains so eraqus not dead

People do die it's just a confusing matter. The body of a person dies as confirmed by Ansem the Wise in KH2's secret ansem reports. It's the heart that's enternal.
Mufasa died, everyone in Hades underworld is dead, Oogie has died twice, that burning village is shows when you first get to Mulans world is a scene from the movie in which everyone that lived there is dead, etc. Death was Xehanort's leading fear in stealing a body.

Though Eraqus really is a grey area right now. It's no doubt Xehanort literally, I mean literally here, stabbed Eraqus in the back so it's likely his body is truly toast but his heart is clinging to Terra so it's like he's dead but not truly passed on yet.

It'd help drive home death is real though if Nomura would quit bringing people back. -_-

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

People do die it's just a confusing matter. The body of a person dies as confirmed by Ansem the Wise in KH2's secret ansem reports. It's the heart that's enternal.
Mufasa died, everyone in Hades underworld is dead, Oogie has died twice, that burning village is shows when you first get to Mulans world is a scene from the movie in which everyone that lived there is dead, etc. Death was Xehanort's leading fear in stealing a body.

What most people do not get is the last part of the heart being eternal though.
Yes, Mufasa may be dead physically but his heart still exists like nearly everyone else's in the KH-universe.

Hearts of people/beings who are dead are in normal cases asleep (where they are located/sent to is another matter that isn't fully clarified, although there are hints that they may return to Kingdom Hearts itself), but as Nomura points out in the BBS Ultimania if you can find and "wake up" those sleeping hearts, these beings may return to the world of the living again.
Hades was explicitly shown (with Auron) to "bring back"/summon people considered "dead" which leads to the assumption that in Hades' underworld there might be sleeping hearts located and Hades is one of those few (he's a god, duh) who has the power to awaken sleeping hearts.
And Auron was "physically present" enough to actually be Sora's party member despite being "dead".
Who knows, Hades' underworld might actually be a "pathway" of sorts which hearts of beings who have died have to travel in order to eventually reach and rejoin with KH itself.

So the main reasons preventing "mass revivals" seem to be a) that the sleeping hearts of "dead" beings cannot be easily/not at all found, that b) the power to wake sleeping hearts (which Sora and Riku gained during DDD) seems to be pretty rare among the populace and c) just awakening the sleeping heart by itself isn't enough as even when awake the heart of the "dead" being still does not have a physical presence (aka a body and corresponding soul that does have life energy to function).
With the people having a chance to "come back" in question since Blank Points there is the defining point of each of them having closely knit ties to Sora or someone close to Sora and their hearts can be "easier" salvaged than most others due to these connections.

Though Eraqus really is a grey area right now. It's no doubt Xehanort literally, I mean literally here, stabbed Eraqus in the back so it's likely his body is truly toast but his heart is clinging to Terra so it's like he's dead but not truly passed on yet.

It'd help drive home death is real though if Nomura would quit bringing people back. -_-

Considering though that creating a body (or at least a functioning vessel/container) for a heart seems to be not that much of a challenge in the KH-universe, Eraqus having lost his "original" body probably doesn't mean much of a hindrance.
Then there's also to consider that Eraqus' body "vanished" in the exact same manner than both Master Xehanort's (in BBS) and Sora's (in KH 1) bodies did, and both still managed to regain a presence back.

That depends on what you define as "real" though, as death exists obviously but not as a definite end of everything and the "border" between the world of the living and the world of the dead isn't as tightly shut as in other settings which may have to do with the prevalence of magic in that universe as well as with such concepts already being present in several FF and even Disney works.
The beings in Hades' underworld are quite and undeniably "dead", but their consciousness/self quite clearly still exists and they can also be communicated with. Maleficent was also described as "definitely gone" by Vexen in CoM and dismissed as "unable to return" on her own.
The act of returning vanished beings was made clear however already during the first game with the summon gems:

Fairy Godmother: Oh, the poor thing! He has turned into a summon gem.


Sora: A summon gem?


Fairy Godmother: This little creature lived in a world that was consumed
by darkness. When a world vanishes, so do its inhabitants. But this one
had such a strong heart, he became a gem instead of vanishing with his
world.


Sora: Can he regain himself?


Fairy Godmother: Yes, but only his spirit. Now, watch! Bibbity Bobbity
boo!


The Fairy Godmother cast a spell on the summon gem. Sora learned the
summon spell Simba.


Fairy Godmother: Whenever you call, he will help you. If you find any
more of these, bring them to me. Don't worry, when their worlds are
restored they will return there. Sora, please help save them.

The Fairy Godmother talks about the "spirit" there but the spirit in the KH-universe is the heart (kokoro in japanese, which means both heart and spirit).
The "everything can have a heart" is ironically already shown there with hearts being located in gems.

---

As for Eraqus being one of the 13 independent from Terra, for this Xehanort would need to get a hand on Eraqus' body somehow (or restore it) and fill it with a seed. With Eraqus' heart being located inside Terra's, his body would be empty and could be controlled by Xehanort.
This could even lead to a battle within Eraqus' body if the "Key to Return Hearts" sends Eraqus' heart back where it belongs where it clashes with the Xehanort-seed already inside. Since Eraqus then for some shenanigan reason can't overcome the seed on his own, Sora enters the fray as well (with his heart-diving powers gained in DDD) resulting in another boss battle during the course of KH III.

 

[Gram]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

That depends on what you define as "real" though, as death exists obviously but not as a definite end

Death to some extent or form must be definite else Xehanort wouldn't fear it so. Most of the things he's done over the entire series has been a desperate attempt to avoid its outcome while achieving his dillusioned goals.

Even if hearts are eternal but sleeping where they go must be a place from which it's hard to return from without some sort of serious or godly magic to intervene.
Where the hearts ends up is also important. Roxas, Xion, Namine and Eraqus aren't gone but clinging to others. Hades underworld is a mass gathering of dead he can call and Maleficent was sent to the dark realm and returned but I doubt everyone goes to the same place. (Though I'm sure KH is the final destination of everyone eventually)

The vanished beings your quoting from KH1 also aren't dead, never were, but fallen into darkness which wasn't death by kh standards as the body didn't die.
Death in this series isn't being split (heartless/nobodies), falling with a world (kh1/dream realm), or other such things it's when the body dies by loss of its soul either through time or malicious ends.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

Death to some extent or form must be definite else Xehanort wouldn't fear it so. Most of the things he's done over the entire series has been a desperate attempt to avoid its outcome while achieving his dillusioned goals.

Even if hearts are eternal but sleeping where they go must be a place from which it's hard to return from without some sort of serious or godly magic to intervene.
Where the hearts ends up is also important. Roxas, Xion, Namine and Eraqus aren't gone but clinging to others. Hades underworld is a mass gathering of dead he can call and Maleficent was sent to the dark realm and returned but I doubt everyone goes to the same place. (Though I'm sure KH is the final destination of everyone eventually)

The vanished beings your quoting from KH1 also aren't dead, never were, but fallen into darkness which wasn't death by kh standards as the body didn't die.
Death in this series isn't being split (heartless/nobodies), falling with a world (kh1/dream realm), or other such things it's when the body dies by loss of its soul either through time or malicious ends.

What Xehanort fears isn't a definite end but the prospect of having to leave the physical plane for an extended period of time (and thus missing stuff that could further satiate his immense curiosity). In his reports it is shown that Xehanort already knows about the eternal aspects of a heart and the possibility to transfer it to prolong his stay in the physical plane.
If his heart is asleep and tucked away somewhere he cannot continue to explore things and see new stuff that seems to be the core of his being, thus he seeks to avoid ever falling into this sleep at all because then he would lose control and also any means to return by himself (as stated by Vexen about Maleficent, and seen by Riku having to wake Sora in DDD, once a heart has fallen into the "eternal sleep"/death, it cannot awake by itself anymore and always needs outside influence).
Xehanort is someone who would never willingly surrender himself to an outside influence.
The Replica project (which was started way after BBS and the time Xehanort wrote his reports) can also be seen as an attempt by Xehanort to ensure a virtually seamless "essence transfer" without his heart ever falling to sleep, as his "scenario" with Terra proved to him that already inhabited bodies/vessels might be a too stressy path to take.
Even if his natural body would eventually expire, with a successful Replica project he could have had a new empty vessel prepared for his essence/heart to enter, extending his presence uninterrupted and without giving away any control.

Thus Xehanort's fear isn't so much of an definite end, but of a loss of control that would come about if he allowed a natural death.

The place where these sleeping hearts are located isn't even so crucially important if we consider that it already is quite hard to return from this sleep because of the conditions attached to it and the quite rare power to even awaken such a heart again.
No heart so far that has fallen to sleep can awaken by itself (even Maleficent needed the three Fairies unwilling aid) and the power to awaken a heart (as seen in DDD) requires some effort to attain.
Even if the heart in question isn't within KH itself, finding it might be a strenuous task, as Yen Sid's and Mickey's search for TAV indicates. They spent over a decade looking for them and, according to the Re: Coded secret ending, only found definite clues on Aqua. Mickey states then that he now may have hints towards the whereabouts of Ven's heart, but on Terra they still have nothing.
In the context of the whole universe we're viewing through a very narrow lens I might add due to most central characters being highly special beings that are either Keybladers or especially strong in magic (like Maleficent, who can revive Disney villains as seen with Oogie, Hades who is a god, Merlin etc.), I would guess this power is quite rare in itself.
Yen Sid knows about the power and has Sora and Riku go to obtain it, but it doesn't mean that he himself has the power. Mickey is implied to have the power, as Yen Sid muses during the last part of DDD that Mickey may be able to awaken Sora's heart IF he can reach it:

And perhaps you may even succeed, Mickey. But there is no denying Riku stands the better chance, having dived into Sora's heart as long as he has.

The way Yen Sid words it, having the power to awaken a heart in itself apparently isn't a guaranteed success, as there seems to be concern that awakening Sora's heart could also fail for a number of reasons.
So even if you find the sleeping heart and have necessary power to awaken it, it may not always work.

Hearts being located inside KH itself would be unreachable by definition though as so far no one managed to "open the door" to the true KH anyways.
The only way for a heart (and thus the essence attached to it) to be revived that is located in KH would be if KH itself "decides" to spit that heart out again with all memories and whatelse makes up that essence/self attached so it can be awakened.
Heck, what lies beyond "the door" to the true KH may in fact be the true "afterlife"/Spirit World/Nirvana/Elysium/Paradise or whatever one might want to call the world after "death" where hearts can live free without the need of a physical presence.


Another thing is the part of the puzzle that we are still missing, as in what happens with those hearts who do not have a body to inhabit (either because they never had one to begin with like newborns such as Roxas and Naminé or because their original body is, for all intents and purposes, gone with a capital G) in the physical plane anymore.
The crux of this whole thing seems to be, as ironically as it may be, the state of the rather "unspectacular" soul in the KH-Universe. It's in essence nothing more than an energy battery for the body. But this "battery" definitely has limited "fuel" and once the fuel runs out the body ceases to function.
In this light the soul isn't as much "lost" but rather "going empty" either by continued use => age or by overload => the soul has to use immense energy to try and repair extensive damage to the body which exhausts so much energy it collapses, resulting in death.
That means, in KH, "death" pertains solely to the physical presence (aka the body).
In order to create a (functioning) body/vessel however, a (charged) soul is needed in order for the entity to function.
This leads to the further questions of what exactly IS the energy that the soul provides for the heart to use/move a body, from where comes that energy and can it, and thus a soul, be either recharged or created?

Let it be resolved by another complex construct ala Nomura or a simple deus ex machina, I bet people will complain in either case though...lol.

Maybe people (us included) are also simply overanalyzing too much instead of simply accepting all this as a part of a fairy tale/fantasy world.

 

[Draxem]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

Maybe people (us included) are also simply overanalyzing too much instead of simply accepting all this as a part of a fairy tale/fantasy world.

That is really all that was needed to be said hahaha

 

[Gram]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

What Xehanort fears isn't a definite end but the prospect of having to leave the physical plane for an extended period of time (and thus missing stuff that could further satiate his immense curiosity). In his reports it is shown that Xehanort already knows about the eternal aspects of a heart and the possibility to transfer it to prolong his stay in the physical plane.

Thus Xehanort's fear isn't so much of an definite end, but of a loss of control that would come about if he allowed a natural death.

That's a semantic. Leaving from the physical plane and dieing in this case are the same thing. When the body dies you leave the physical plane. Your existence as a "living" person, or rather a physical person, no longer exists.

So yes Xehanort is indeed afraid of death and even refers to it as a death:

Xehanort's Report 8

My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in.

Eraqus and I did not see eye to eye. I left, and wandered the World. This was perhaps the first time I felt truly free since that day I departed my boyhood home. But free to do what? I had already shown the Mark and become a Keyblade Master - but having been passed over as a Successor, all that remained to me was the road of teacher.

Ordinarily, Keyblade Masters take pupils under their wings, malleable minds in which to impress the precepts of the Keyblade wielder and keep our profession alive for generations to come. Was my time drawing to an end, then, after all I had accomplished since casting away the place of my birth? Surely waiting for a quiet death would not do, not when there was still so much I needed to see for myself. Powers help me, I thought, my body is so old...

Xehanort's Report 9

We Keyblade Masters have a special gift. We can extract a heart, be it our own or that of another. By continuing this cycle, it is possible to remain in the world of the living forever.

The way Yen Sid words it, having the power to awaken a heart in itself apparently isn't a guaranteed success, as there seems to be concern that awakening Sora's heart could also fail for a number of reasons.
So even if you find the sleeping heart and have necessary power to awaken it, it may not always work.

Hearts being located inside KH itself would be unreachable by definition though as so far no one managed to "open the door" to the true KH anyways.

This is exactly why "death" has to be a definite end or at least definite enough for Xehanor to fear this outcome/fate and try his damnedest to avoid it.

Even the ones being saved now are only exceptions to the normal bindings of nature as none of them is truly dead.
Roxas never had a body of his own but merely gave Sora's back. Even if he has a heart of his own, until he returns, he is a part of Sora.
Namine is to much of a mystery to even entertain.
And Xion was also part of Sora to an extent.

These three have vanished but never truly died as they weren't truly people. Individuals definitely. But still apart of someone else which has kept them in a place they can be recovered from.

 

[Rau Le Creuset]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

I really wish that they never started the reincarnation of characters. Becoming a nobody/heartless should have been the end of the regeneration cycle. That's just me though.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Re: what if eraqus was one of the 13th darknesses?

I really wish that they never started the reincarnation of characters. Becoming a nobody/heartless should have been the end of the regeneration cycle. That's just me though.

It's not really reincarnation, though. It's just a reformation.

Reincarnation implies that they were born into new bodies and new lives, not their old ones. A Nobody and Heartless reforming is merely a continuation of their natural life that was previously disturbed.

 

[Rau Le Creuset]

That's true.

Does it not sap all of the emotion out of the "deaths"of all these characters though? I really believe that it does.

 

[bgizzles45]

I do not see Eraqus being a seeker of darkness, nor would I think he would submit to Xehanort.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That is really all that was needed to be said hahaha

Heh, I just notice more and more since I rarely get to post anymore due to RL-stuff that when I do it always becomes nearly an essay, lolz.

That's a semantic. Leaving from the physical plane and dieing in this case are the same thing. When the body dies you leave the physical plane. Your existence as a "living" person, or rather a physical person, no longer exists.

So yes Xehanort is indeed afraid of death and even refers to it as a death:

Truly is, lol, seems like I wasn't that well rested when writing the previous post. *ggg*.

This is exactly why "death" has to be a definite end or at least definite enough for Xehanor to fear this outcome/fate and try his damnedest to avoid it.

Even the ones being saved now are only exceptions to the normal bindings of nature as none of them is truly dead.
Roxas never had a body of his own but merely gave Sora's back. Even if he has a heart of his own, until he returns, he is a part of Sora.
Namine is to much of a mystery to even entertain.
And Xion was also part of Sora to an extent.

These three have vanished but never truly died as they weren't truly people. Individuals definitely. But still apart of someone else which has kept them in a place they can be recovered from.

What I take from the elements surrounding the whole issue we are shown so far in the KH-verse is that the "definite" part applies mostly to an individual level, as no one can come back/be restored by his/her own will. There must be always a second force being present who wants to restore someone and then also fulfill all the various conditions applied to it.
I. e. even if Simba wanted to restore/bring back Mufasa it wouldn't work because he has neither the power, abilities or knowledge to do so.
I'm not even sure that Riku or Sora with their newfound powers in DDD could do the deed, mainly because searching for Mufasa's heart (if it isn't already settled inside KH itself) would be a wild goose chase for possibly more than a decade and even if they would find it there's no guarantee it could be awaken.
Xehanort being the control freak he is though would not want to leave such a thing to an outside force (and honestly, considering Xehanort's whole personality and modus operandi I guess he's very much aware that there would be no one who would want him to come back).

The main question however would be what triggers a heart going into KH?
Does KH itself call out to a heart? Can a heart decide to return to KH or remain lingering somewhere else in hopes that someday someone may awaken it again?
What about hearts that weren't originally created by KH but developed on their own like i.e. Data-Sora's, Riku Replica's or Tron's?
In the Prologue of BBS Xehanort was pretty damn sure that Ven was done for and would "soon drift into the clutches of eternal sleep", yet Ven's heart, even as damaged as it was, was not incorporated into KH but lingered until it met Sora's newborn heart.
Then there's also the issue with Nomura claiming that even Aqua and Ansem the Wise would be "born by sleep" despite (technically) their hearts never did fall into sleep at all nor did anything happen to their bodies. They just changed realms.

Does it not sap all of the emotion out of the "deaths"of all these characters though? I really believe that it does.

That's of course a totally subjective issue, but I personally have much more emotion for the current predicaments all those characters are in which can be counted as fates worse than death.

Not to mention that the pain caused by their disapperances for themselves as well as those close to them still lingers and causes active problems and consequences (see Sora's heart in DDD for example) regardless if these disappearances are permanent or not.

I do not see Eraqus being a seeker of darkness, nor would I think he would submit to Xehanort.

He might have no choice though, Terra also didn't want to submit to Xehanort and yet he was forced to...

 

[bgizzles45]

The epilogue conversion between Terra and Xehanort says otherwise. Not to mention, Terra had to feed into the darkness before being possessed by Xehanort.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

The epilogue conversion between Terra and Xehanort says otherwise. Not to mention, Terra had to feed into the darkness before being possessed by Xehanort.

A very important truth that's overlooked here. Though one could argue that Eraqus himself commented that his own heart was darkness, just because he ignored his own darkness doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Personally, I think Eraqus knew what he was doing when he fell into Terra. I think that might make all the difference here.

 

[5glitchers5]

That's true.

Does it not sap all of the emotion out of the "deaths"of all these characters though? I really believe that it does.

I agree! The revival process shouldn't even exist. Xehanort's story should've ended after KH BBS (We first fight his heartless, then his nobody, and learn his past and fight his human self) honestly and they still could've made either a KH BBS Vol. 2, or KH 3D that introduces a new villain. My own ideas were the X-Blade got split into 20 pieces, 7 of light, 13 of darkness just like we have now only that the 13 Darkness's are not Xehanort, as they are hearts born of NATURAL darkness 100 % just like the 7 princesses of heart are born with no darkness in their heart. And the leader of this Organization can be the new villain and maybe he was the one that started the keyblade war. Or perhaps his heartless became the Guardian heartless who was using Xehanort to get to Kingdom Hearts. Xehanort may have heard of the 13 Seekers of Darkness and you can still say that he as Xemnas tried to create his own The true villain using the what is though to be the main villain is overused, however Time Travel also is so I don't see why not. I (personally) think that idea is WAY better than we have now!