About the KH2.5 Secret Ending

[FudgemintGuardian]

Well if so... then why does he appear as Xigbar and not Braig in DDD?

Easy, the Xigbar we saw in DDD was brought in through time-travel.
EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Xblade13]

Simple, Xigbar has been escorted there by Young Xehanort, thereby exceeding time. This is Xigbar from a time before he was defeated.
Meanwhile Braig is off plotting his own scheme. They are coexisting during the time of that scene due to Time Travel (thanks Nomura).

I thought about that too but... does that mean that Braig and Xigbar each represent a seperate seat in the XIII Darkenesses, or that Braig was just busy at the time and Xigbar (from the past) was there just to represent him?

 

[Saken]

I thought about that too but... does that mean that Braig and Xigbar each represent a seperate seat in the XIII Darkenesses, or that Braig was just busy at the time and Xigbar (from the past) was there just to represent him?

Probably the latter because if Xigbar was to take another seat as well as the already existing Braig, then Young Xehanort would have to drag him through time for the fight between the 13 Darknesses and 7 Lights in order to achieve the goal. This would present a time limit for the actual fight, which may not be practical. But then again, I think he would need to drag a few more individuals through time, as was necessary for the gathering in KH3D. So it's not out of the question...

I guess if anything, he would drag Xigbar through time, and Braig may not even be apart of the 13. If he goes off and unravels his own scheme, we may see some plot twists where we have some Braig vs Xigbar action, or something else exciting.
This may also be why it was necessary to create the nobody of Braig to begin with, perhaps Master Xehanort foresaw the betrayal, and would answer my own question as to why Xehanort stabbed him without telling him. But then again, it still doesn't make sense for him to proclaim his name is "Ansem" to a fading Braig.
It's all up in the air, I think it's too ambitious to create a judgement from now.

 

[Precursor Mar]

Well if so... then why does he appear as Xigbar and not Braig in DDD?

Simple, Xigbar has been escorted there by Young Xehanort, thereby exceeding time. This is Xigbar from a time before he was defeated.
Meanwhile Braig is off plotting his own scheme. They are coexisting during the time of that scene due to Time Travel (thanks Nomura).

The hell? I thought the Xigbar in DDD was just Braig in Org. coat, you know like Isa. I didn't see anything that would indicate that he time traveled.

 

[EmperorPersuit]

I think that is the case and it would fit in MX's plan. Using time travelled ppl would grant him unlimited ressources, because in case of his pawns "dying", Young Xehanort can clearly summon them again. (if he still works for his older self) No need for getting more vessels for him.

According to the Apprentice Xehanort thing. What if he truly gained his own heart over the course and tried to outclass his older selves (MX and Terra?), which explains his brown colored eyes and his amnesiatic behavior? And then after further experiments, he outraged everyone and told them he is "Ansem" while MX was trying to take over and forced the separation. And after the separation of becoming Heartless and Nobody Master Xehanort had fully taken over?

 

[Anagram]

Threads like this make me miss when Xehanort was an amnesic singular person seen briefly in KH2.

 

[Saken]

The hell? I thought the Xigbar in DDD was just Braig in Org. coat, you know like Isa. I didn't see anything that would indicate that he time traveled.

The hairstyle tells all. If you look in that scene it's the long ponytail. Meanwhile what we see in the 2.5 secret ending is his human look, without that ponytail.

Threads like this make me miss when Xehanort was an amnesic singular person seen briefly in KH2.

Lol, everything was much more simple then.

 

[Launchpad]

this is one of the most fucked threads I've ever seen.


KEEP GOING

 

[hemmoheikkinen]

Yes it might be convoluted and messy, but I find discussions and topics like these part of the charm of the KH-series. Every time when I see a long theory post I get excited.

 

[Sally-boiii]

Yes it might be convoluted and messy, but I find discussions and topics like these part of the charm of the KH-series. Every time when I see a long theory post I get excited.

It is, without a doubt interesting, it's just that it's so dang convoluted. Like I can barely wrap my head around the complexities in this theory. Ugh! Still love KH though.

 

[Audo]

Honestly, I always just thought of it as more of a character quirk than anything else. Xemnas is who Xigbar spent the most time with and thus would be his go-to. Also considering that Xigbar doesn't abandon his new name once being recompleted, I get the sense he would hold the same for Xemnas. He has a bit of a shown history of referring to Apprentice Xehanort as Xemnas. In a KH2:FM cutscene he does this only to stop and correct himself.

I also don't tend to agree with the theory that Braig/Xigbar shown in Re:Coded and KH3D are separate entities. Very little supports this aside from the use of the models which could just as easily be chalked up to development shortcuts/errors/etc.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Uhh... So many theories, so little time, it's making my head spin. This scene was confusing enough without a dozen different takes on it, plus all the stuff from DDD's opening. Ah well...

Judging by the way all the bodies are strewn about, I'd say this scene takes place shortly before Lea and the others woke up in DDD. That particular scene was shown through Lea's perspective, with him waking up close enough to the glass to see his reflection. The positions from both scenes match up, as far as I can tell.

Trollanort's there thanks to time travel, no doubt. This particular scene was probably to answer Lea's question in DDD: "Where are Braig and Isa?" It seems like he was there to escort one of his selves, Isa, into the future like all of the others.

Braig looks like the way he does because I suppose that's how re-completion works: with the weird exception of Ienzo, who seemed to retain aging, all of their minor design changes (the markings on Axel's face, Xaldin's slightly altered hairstyle) seem to have reverted. He also remarks about having his own plans... apparently, he's not aiding Trollanort in the other-selves roundup. As for what he's up to... well, who knows? Probably something diabolical. Whatever it is, he ran off and isn't there when Lea wakes up, and still seems in on a ton of stuff that no one else is. Can't say I'm surprised.

So, why did a Xigbar from the past show up in DDD instead of present-day Braig? I'm not so sure. It could be that Xigbar was just needed as a kind of stand-in, while the real guy was busy running some kind of sidequest off-screen at MX's request. It could also be the result of him suddenly hightailing it follow his own personal agenda, and MX just said "Screw it, I can't find the guy, but I still need him here somehow" and found Xigbar the Nobody to fill in the spot.

Gah, who knew a bunch of HD Re:Coded cutscenes could throw such a wrench into the plotline?!

 

[Audo]

So, why did a Xigbar from the past show up in DDD instead of present-day Braig? I'm not so sure. It could be that Xigbar was just needed as a kind of stand-in, while the real guy was busy running some kind of sidequest off-screen at MX's request. It could also be the result of him suddenly hightailing it follow his own personal agenda, and MX just said "Screw it, I can't find the guy, but I still need him here somehow" and found Xigbar the Nobody to fill in the spot.

Or it could be that wasn't a Xigbar from the past at all and was in fact the recompleted Braig we see in 2.5...

Seems the simplest solution, which is often the right one.

 

[Saken]

I disagree with both things you say.

Or it could be that wasn't a Xigbar from the past at all and was in fact the recompleted Braig we see in 2.5...

Firstly, it's naive to call the one we see at the end of KH3D as "Braig" because, as I've said before, you can see from the slightly altered features he has, like the hair being a hell of a lot longer. I don't know about you, but from the time Braig and the rest were re-completed to the time of that scene in KH3D, I find it highly improbably for him to have grown his hair out so long.
You mentioned that the developers could have just whacked in this model of "Braig" to cut corners... Are you kidding? In such a convoluted plot, you're telling me that they're going to just "take a shortcut" and place in the Xigbar model, but in fact were referring to Braig? In a story where it is very probably for both to be existing at the same time, that would be incredibly unwise.
Not only this, but the model of Ansem SoD that we see when all 13 are gathered is one specifically made for that scene. Throughout the game, Ansem SoD was seen wearing his MX lookalike gear, however when all are gathered in the room, he is wearing an Organization Coat.
Now if they went to this extent for the model of Ansem SoD, why wouldn't they for this Braig/Xigbar situation?
Additionally, we see the "Braig" in the KH3D cutscenes wielding the sniper rifles he had as Xigbar...

Seems the simplest solution, which is often the right one.

I don't think so, with Time Travel and these Foretellers and missing masters and all these parallels between the past and present, not to mention the whole Xehanort mess, I think it is unwise to not consider all possibilities and just shrug it off as a "development mistake". The story was purposely created to be complicated in order to whet the appetite of the fans, albeit not in the most pristine way, however we're here, discussing it are we not?
Would a forum exist if we didn't explore possibilities, and simply all agreed on the "simplest" solution?

Let me also reply to what you said before, I would like to see where exactly the new, re-completed Braig refers to himself as Xigbar? You said he didn't abandon his new name, but where is this indication? He isn't referred to as Xigbar in the cutscene in question.
Also, him confusing the names is improbable. In KH3D he made a clear distinction in the final cut scenes of Sora's story:
"Xemnas and Xehanort formed the Organization for a specific reason..."
Not to mention in the KH2.5 Secret Ending we are discussing, he refers first to "Lord Xemnas", not simply Xemnas, and then immediately after also mentions Xehanort, again making a distinction.
That KH2FM scene was a while back, when Birth By Sleep still wasn't released, so we didn't know anything about Apprentice Xehanort's origin. I think him stuttering there was just to help the audience figure out who he's talking about.
At any rate in all the recent games he declares them distinctly as separate entities.

 

[chenoehii]

Uhh... So many theories, so little time, it's making my head spin. This scene was confusing enough without a dozen different takes on it, plus all the stuff from DDD's opening. Ah well...

Judging by the way all the bodies are strewn about, I'd say this scene takes place shortly before Lea and the others woke up in DDD. That particular scene was shown through Lea's perspective, with him waking up close enough to the glass to see his reflection. The positions from both scenes match up, as far as I can tell.

Trollanort's there thanks to time travel, no doubt. This particular scene was probably to answer Lea's question in DDD: "Where are Braig and Isa?" It seems like he was there to escort one of his selves, Isa, into the future like all of the others.

Braig looks like the way he does because I suppose that's how re-completion works: with the weird exception of Ienzo, who seemed to retain aging, all of their minor design changes (the markings on Axel's face, Xaldin's slightly altered hairstyle) seem to have reverted. He also remarks about having his own plans... apparently, he's not aiding Trollanort in the other-selves roundup. As for what he's up to... well, who knows? Probably something diabolical. Whatever it is, he ran off and isn't there when Lea wakes up, and still seems in on a ton of stuff that no one else is. Can't say I'm surprised.

So, why did a Xigbar from the past show up in DDD instead of present-day Braig? I'm not so sure. It could be that Xigbar was just needed as a kind of stand-in, while the real guy was busy running some kind of sidequest off-screen at MX's request. It could also be the result of him suddenly hightailing it follow his own personal agenda, and MX just said "Screw it, I can't find the guy, but I still need him here somehow" and found Xigbar the Nobody to fill in the spot.

Gah, who knew a bunch of HD Re:Coded cutscenes could throw such a wrench into the plotline?!

I personally don't think (since we haven't had any real confirmation yet that I know) that the person in the "Room Where Nothing Gathers" in DDD was Isa, even though Lea says his name. That could just be because he knows they've all been recompleted so he's seeing him as Isa. I mean, Braig calls Lea "Axel" because he's from the past and he's still Axel to him, and if "Trollonort" (xD) is the one who whisked Isa off then Xigbar from the past has to (or should) know that they've all been recompleted in the present day, but he still chooses to say "Axel" because that's how Xigbar the nobody sees him. But Lea probably isn't thinking about "Saix" anymore because to him the nobody doesn't exist and he is instead focused on Isa. It's not as if Lea knew about the time travel thing.

I could be wrong, and it could very well be Isa. But, like you've already pointed out, why wouldn't both Braig and Isa have gone with Trollonort? That makes it confusing to me. It won't get explained until KH3 comes out.

Another thing that comes to mind when I think about all of this is that scene in KH2 where Saix asks Xemnas if he can end the charades. There's no proof yet to back up any theory since we don't have the official timeline down and we can't possible know yet when everything occurred, and we know from Trollonort that when a person returns to the place they came from after time traveling that they forget everything that happened once they began their journey. So Saix wouldn't have any memories of anything, but I've just always found that scene very suspicious, especially in light of the recent games. Does anyone have theories about this that are different from just Saix basically saying "f*** it I don't care anymore" after Axel died and (what he considers it to be) betrays him? I don't know if too many people really thought about it when the game came out, but I'm wondering if it holds a different significance now.

 

[Audo]

Firstly, it's naive to call the one we see at the end of KH3D as "Braig" because, as I've said before, you can see from the slightly altered features he has, like the hair being a hell of a lot longer. I don't know about you, but from the time Braig and the rest were re-completed to the time of that scene in KH3D, I find it highly improbably for him to have grown his hair out so long.

in-universe explanation: he modified his appearance using his heart.

which is what ansem does to riku's body in kh1 to look like him.

You mentioned that the developers could have just whacked in this model of "Braig" to cut corners... Are you kidding? In such a convoluted plot, you're telling me that they're going to just "take a shortcut" and place in the Xigbar model, but in fact were referring to Braig?

It would not be the first time? They have cut developmental corners in a lot of places throughout the series.

Not only this, but the model of Ansem SoD that we see when all 13 are gathered is one specifically made for that scene.

Uh, you mean the model of Xehanort in an Organization Robe? You mean the model that is used in KH2 for Riku?

Let me also reply to what you said before, I would like to see where exactly the new, re-completed Braig refers to himself as Xigbar? You said he didn't abandon his new name, but where is this indication? He isn't referred to as Xigbar in the cutscene in question.

I was referring to in KH3D.

Also, him confusing the names is improbable.

I didn't say he confused them.


There really is nothing, aside from a simple model discrepancy in a single scene in an hd remix, to suggest that Braig from 2.5 and Xigbar from KH3D are separate entities existing simultaneously. Nomura more or less confirmed that the Xigbar and Isa we see at the end of KH3D are their recompleted selves with the only mystery being "why weren't they there when Lea woke up" a mystery that was answered by 2.5. In typical fandom fashion, it really feels like fans are spinning more out of this little discrepancy than was actually intended. The simplest, most logical scenario, is that Braig was recompleted and he simply refers to himself as Xigbar ( and they just didn't want to make a new model of Braig with long hair for a single cutscene on an hd remake.) He's even listed as Xigbar in Re:Coded's credits.

 

[chenoehii]

I was referring to in KH3D.

There really is nothing, aside from a simple model discrepancy in a single scene in an hd remix, to suggest that Braig from 2.5 and Xigbar from KH3D are separate entities existing simultaneously. Nomura more or less confirmed that the Xigbar and Isa we see at the end of KH3D are their recompleted selves with the only mystery being "why weren't they there when Lea woke up" a mystery that was answered by 2.5. In typical fandom fashion, it really feels like fans are spinning more out of this little discrepancy than was actually intended. The simplest, most logical scenario, is that Braig was recompleted and he simply refers to himself as Xigbar ( and they just didn't want to make a new model of Braig with long hair for a single cutscene on an hd remake.) He's even listed as Xigbar in Re:Coded's credits.

Uhh.... in what scene exactly does Braig (who very clearly looks like himself as he did in the end of BBS) refer to himself as Xigbar?? We don't even see Braig in KH3D except for in the opening, and he doesn't say any name.

 

[Audo]

Uhh.... in what scene exactly does Braig (who very clearly looks like himself as he did in the end of BBS) refer to himself as Xigbar?? We don't even see Braig in KH3D except for in the opening, and he doesn't say any name.

We see Braig in all of the ending of KH3D. And I didn't mean to imply there is literally a scene where he refers to himself as Xigbar, just that he is going by that name going forward (YX refers to him as such, for example). The new names with the recusant sigil are meant to show one's allegiance to the X-Blade plan. Xigbar, still working for that plan, is still being called by this name even tho he is recompleted. Lea on the other hand goes through great pains to divorce himself from the name (not that he was really aware of all of its implications).

 

[chenoehii]

We see Braig in all of the ending of KH3D. And I didn't mean to imply there is literally a scene where he refers to himself as Xigbar, just that he is going by that name going forward (YX refers to him as such, for example). The new names with the recusant sigil are meant to show one's allegiance to the X-Blade plan. Xigbar, still working for that plan, is still being called by this name even tho he is recompleted. Lea on the other hand goes through great pains to divorce himself from the name (not that he was really aware of all of its implications).

Okay, but that was actually Xigbar probably just taken from a time before Sora killed him. He's called by name in the place where you can see character names and short bios (can't remember what it's called -_-):

One of Organization XIII's members. As Number II, he has Xehanort's trust above all others.
His job this time has been to vex Sora and lead him further into the abyss of sleep.

Edit: so what I mean is, we know Braig's recompleted yeah, but I don't think that's Braig, but Xigbar. Plus if it was Braig, why wouldn't he look the same? Why would they have him look like Xigbar and make it confusing?

 

[Audo]

Okay, but that was actually Xigbar probably just taken from a time before Sora killed him.

Actually it probably wasn't. The Xigbar we see in KH3D is referred to by Nomura as being a recompleted human.

— Xigbar and Saix appeared as members of Organisation XIII. Did they return as humans like Lea and the others?
Nomura: The conditions of becoming a human have been met, so you’d think they had returned, wouldn’t you? For them to have been with Xehanort and the others, perhaps they were collected after they had become humans and before Lea and the others woke up.

Plus if it was Braig, why wouldn't he look the same? Why would they have him look like Xigbar and make it confusing?

Because they like the Xigbar model better? Because they didn't want to bother making a model of Braig in an Org coat? Because Xigbar is his more recognizable appearance? Because Xigbar and his connections to the Org were the better choice to highlight?