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An Abridged History of Xehanort: Filling in the Gaps



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SeaSalt

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This theory is amazing, Grass..
I do have some questions though.

1. You say that AX was a hearltess/nobody for 9 years before KH, does this mean that he and the other apprentices all fell to darkness soon after BbS and were nobodies for that long of a time?

2. I don't know when your planning on telling us but i'd love to hear your theory on how the mysterious figure fits in here.

3. Is it ever said that Xemnas knows that CO was originally LoD and that Ven is hiding in there? How would anyone besides Aqua know that?
 

Zul

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However, as Nomura has hinted, Xemnas chose not to use it. Why? Well, would you use the weapon that allowed your body to be taken over, that killed your mentor, that split your friend’s heart in half, that led to your friend being trapped in the Realm of Darkness? Even if it would benefit him greatly, Xemnas refused to use it. He despises that keyblade, and sees it as a curse that he can even use it, as it is a constant reminder of what happened. It is the object of his hate and rage. He would sooner die than use it.


We've talked about this earlier, and this is the part I have a hard time believing. I don't think he would attribute all of his hatred towards Xehanort to his weapon to that extent. There was no indication of him in BBS really taking note of that weapon or expressing contempt towards it specifically.

I simply believe Nomura had to come up with an answer on the spot and that's what he blurted.

One reason he 'could' have not intentionally used the keyblade is that it may have an effect on him. He may have tried to use it at one point but found Xehanort's memories taking over the Terra in him, so he stopped.

Again that's an out there assumption, but to me, anything is better than him refusing to use it for the fact that it represented Xehanort to him and that he hated it so much because of that.
 
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We've talked about this earlier, and this is the part I have a hard time believing. I don't think he would attribute all of his hatred towards Xehanort to his weapon to that extent. There was no indication of him in BBS really taking note of that weapon or expressing contempt towards it specifically.

I simply believe Nomura had to come up with an answer on the spot and that's what he blurted.

It wasn't blurted out.
These questions are planted because it's what Nomura wants answered for the player, what he wants us to think about. It's not an ad-libbed transcript.

And really, there would be no reason to bring that question up otherwise. If he didn't want to make a mystery out of it, he could have simply said, "Xemnas doesn't have a heart, so he can't wield a keyblade," and it would be case closed, as it has been for a while. But he didn't do that.

Back when Roxas was not known to have a heart, it was said that he used the keyblade through Sora's heart. And now we know that he actually did have a heart within. So the rule, stated in Another Report, that one must have a heart to wield a keyblade still applies. That Nomura even would discuss the potential of Xemnas using a keyblade should bring up some implications.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in BbS." Do you mean the No Heart fight? Because it's non-canon. At least, you can't take anything away from that fight, and at most, you could say that it hints that Xemnas could use MX's keyblade. It has no implications about how Xemnas would feel about MX's keyblade.
 

Zul

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It wasn't blurted out.
These questions are planted because it's what Nomura wants answered for the player, what he wants us to think about. It's not an ad-libbed transcript.


And really, there would be no reason to bring that question up otherwise. If he didn't want to make a mystery out of it, he could have simply said, "Xemnas doesn't have a heart, so he can't wield a keyblade," and it would be case closed, as it has been for a while. But he didn't do that.

I was under the impression that someone basically sat down with him and asked him these and he had to answer them right on the spot. If he actually had time to think about the questions, then I recant that part of my post.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in BbS." Do you mean the No Heart fight? Because it's non-canon. At least, you can't take anything away from that fight, and at most, you could say that it hints that Xemnas could use MX's keyblade. It has no implications about how Xemnas would feel about MX's keyblade.
I mean I don't find any sort of direct evidence towards Terra hating MX's keyblade to that extent, or seeing it as representative of him so much.

We know Xemnas went to great, borderline absurd lengths to secure the use of a keyblade. I simply find it hard to imagine that his hatred towards MX's keyblade was so great that even when he was a nobody, which supposedly either has super-suppressed emotions or no emotions at all, would simply refuse to use a keyblade he could summon for that reason.

I felt that, if he really did refuse to use it willingly, it was because using it would have some other unintended consequences. I pointed out a possible example, that using the keyblade will make Xemnas's memories lean way more towards Xehanort than he intends to, and basically the Terra in him was stopping him from doing that.

There is something else I'd like to mention. Aqua does not summon her own Rainstorm keyblade into the RoD.

Assuming she can, she seems to have intentionally left it for Terra and refused to summon it. Perhaps she was communicating to Xemnas through that blade(Days..keyblade telecommunication..except for the fact that Aqua wasn't 5/8ths dead or whatever ridiculous condition Xion was in at the moment.)

Assuming she can't, and assuming Xemnas knows that he is capable of using a keyblade, I wonder why he didn't at least attempt to pick hers up.

He may have attempted to, the CoR scenario is one where we really don't know most of the details, we have one scene of that room and an implication from Braig that Aqua was talking back to Xemnas somehow in another scene.
 

Unrequited Lust

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You should be a scenario writer. But I see a problem. If Xemnas didn't use the keyblade because of his hatred for Xehanort, why did he use his keyblade armor?
 
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I was under the impression that someone basically sat down with him and asked him these and he had to answer them right on the spot. If he actually had time to think about the questions, then I recant that part of my post.

There is no way to see how these interviews are conducted (not like we're going to ever get a video of them- and with good reason). Still, there are several things about them that lead me to believe they are set up.

First, just the format and the way the answers are worded is very mechanical. It runs more like a Q&A (especially the "plot mysteries" sections) than it does a genuine interview with answers made on the spot. From the depth Nomura goes into his answers on such minute details, it's pretty clear that he has these things in mind. And second, it isn't just Nomura that you ought to be paying attention to. Even the interviewer provides subtle hints by asking blatantly leading questions for the reader to ponder about.

Just for example:
Is that to say that there's a possibility that within Xehanort's Heartless, the darkness that sleeps in Riku's heart, there might remain something of Terra...?

Nomura: That's also a riddle connected to the next story, so everyone please use your imagination.

The interviewer jumped to this conclusion from a rather large gap, which seems to suggest that they may know something (ie Nomura told them beforehand). Note that the question, not the answer, is the important part here.

So, yeah, that's how I've always seen these, especially for Ultimania interviews. They are, after all, "official," so I can only imagine that Nomura wanted them to be set up to answer certain questions and bring up others.

I mean I don't find any sort of direct evidence towards Terra hating MX's keyblade to that extent, or seeing it as representative of him so much.

There's not really any time in BbS where it would make sense for him to. The hate of MX's keyblade would stem, obviously, from his hate of Xehanort. And we see plenty of hate for Xehanort by the end of BbS.

There's no time in BbS where we get to see Terra isolated from Xehanort with his keyblade (other than that one quicktime event in the final battle, which as I've talked about is irrelevant). So there's no reason for Terra to direct his anger at MX's keyblade when MX himself is there. We don't get to see much of Terra's hate at all, for that matter, because things are revealed to him fairly late in the game. And when all is said and done with that keyblade, with its last appearance, Terra has already been taken over by MX, so there isn't much room to show his reaction to MX's keyblade.

We know Xemnas went to great, borderline absurd lengths to secure the use of a keyblade. I simply find it hard to imagine that his hatred towards MX's keyblade was so great that even when he was a nobody, which supposedly either has super-suppressed emotions or no emotions at all, would simply refuse to use a keyblade he could summon for that reason.

Notice, though, how that could be spun both ways. I could also say that he went to "borderline absurd lengths" to ensure he had other keyblade wielders to fulfill his plans since he did not want to use MX's keyblade.

I have already addressed the issue of emotion in the op.

I felt that, if he really did refuse to use it willingly, it was because using it would have some other unintended consequences. I pointed out a possible example, that using the keyblade will make Xemnas's memories lean way more towards Xehanort than he intends to, and basically the Terra in him was stopping him from doing that.

And that's a perfectly reasonable explanation, it could work with this theory or work on its own.

All I'm concerned with is how Nomura said he may intentionally choose not to use a keyblade.
That Xemnas would NOT want to use MX's keyblade, and yet still wants a keyblade to be used in order to enact his plans (hell, he would want to use someone else's keyblade, ie "were it only in more capable hands"), it leads to the belief that there was something specifically about MX's keyblade that he did not like.

That and with Xemnas more representative of Terra, it gives him a bit of a more active role in the plot, even if it isn't really the same Terra we know. When Terra throws around things like:

- "You think you can just come in and take over? I'm not gonna sit by and let that happen."
- "You'll never sway me from the one cause that pushes me to keep on fighting. Whatever the cost, I'm ready to pay it."
- "Aqua, Ven... One day I will set this right."

It projects an active character. For me, to suggest that both Ansem SoD and Xemnas are more or less Xehanort and that Terra was a nonfactor for 11+ years really hurts that image they're trying to portray.

There is something else I'd like to mention. Aqua does not summon her own Rainstorm keyblade into the RoD.

Assuming she can, she seems to have intentionally left it for Terra and refused to summon it. Perhaps she was communicating to Xemnas through that blade(Days..keyblade telecommunication..except for the fact that Aqua wasn't 5/8ths dead or whatever ridiculous condition Xion was in at the moment.)

Assuming she can't, and assuming Xemnas knows that he is capable of using a keyblade, I wonder why he didn't at least attempt to pick hers up.

He may have attempted to, the CoR scenario is one where we really don't know most of the details, we have one scene of that room and an implication from Braig that Aqua was talking back to Xemnas somehow in another scene.

I touched upon this in the op, without directly referencing Aqua's keyblade:

Well, first, there are three keyblades that they could potentially use: Terra’s keyblade, Eraqus’ keyblade, and MX’s keyblade. The first two cannot be used. Terra’s keyblade is with LS (or flying around the RoD) and Eraqus’ keyblade is with Aqua. In any case, just as the KK can switch owners, I believe Xemnas/Ansem lost the ability to wield those keyblades. The keyblades rejected them.

While Secret Report XIII says Keyblades can act for either the light or darkness, I still believe they have some sort of sentience and a moral compass (ie they may be able to use light and darkness, but they can pick a side, good or evil, which is an entirely different dichotomy). Neither Eraqus’ nor Terra’s keyblades would obey Ansem SoD because he is evil, and those keys are “good.” They would not cooperate with Xemnas either because, while not evil per se, his motivation has been warped. He utilizes negative emotion rather than positive ones, and is willing to hurt others. He is more amoral than immoral, but those keys are moral.

The same would apply to Aqua's keyblade.

You should be a scenario writer. But I see a problem. If Xemnas didn't use the keyblade because of his hatred for Xehanort, why did he use his keyblade armor?

That isn't Xehanort's armor. At best, it is similar to his armor, but it's not like Terra would know that anyway. And the armor simply wasn't used against them, there was nothing about it that could reflect Terra's grudge.
 

Ordeith

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Just a point I'd like to question:

While it's clear that a large portion of Terra resides inside Xemnas, can we honestly call him "Terra"? I don't think that enough of Terra passed over to give Xemnas that status--or, at least, it isn't clear enough to pass that judgment.

To me, Xemnas seems to be the quintessential Nobody--in that he isn't anybody in particular. He's the body that exhibited Terra and Xehanort's intermingled personality--and when both hearts were released, he only retained bits and pieces. To use a metaphor, Xemnas is a game console from which all of the discs have been ejected, and all of the hard disk games have been removed. The only thing remaining are the save files, from which he can make vague inferences about what those games might have been like.

Since those fragmented memories only allow him to understand hatred and rage, he doesn't seek Aqua and Ven's salvation because he cares about them. They're simply all he has left to cling to. He gives them the status of "friends", yet he doesn't understand what friendship is. While it's clear that Terra's will stayed with Xemnas, his motives didn't--and that is ultimately what distinguishes them. Xemnas is trying to claim an identity that, when everything is taken account of, isn't his; he has no identity that is uniquely his own.

Of course, this all depends upon how much of Terra remained with Xemnas:
If only a fraction of Terra lies within, he's a monster. If Xemnas contains the clear majority of Terra's substance, he's a martyr (albeit in a twisted sense).
 

Zul

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Xemnas really is the anomaly amongst all the Xehanort forms seen so far. A few scenes in KH2FM and Days points to Terra very strongly.

At the same time, the most recent sources, the BBSv2 trailer and the KH3D trailer, point even more towards Xehanort instead.

BBSv2 trailer: Xemnas being overlayed on young MX after ASoD

KH3D: Xemnas and ASoD appear to be semi-merged or something, you can see the silhouette of the other being surrounding one of them.


He's by far the hardest to tell in my personal opinion, despite knowing so little about Apprentice Xehanort.

At least with him we can somewhat safely say he's either Terra or MX(like the OP says, I don't buy the "hes a third being" at all, it would make Xehanort even more absurdly convoluted, he really doesn't need that right now).
 
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Just a point I'd like to question:

While it's clear that a large portion of Terra resides inside Xemnas, can we honestly call him "Terra"? I don't think that enough of Terra passed over to give Xemnas that status--or, at least, it isn't clear enough to pass that judgment.

To me, Xemnas seems to be the quintessential Nobody--in that he isn't anybody in particular. He's the body that exhibited Terra and Xehanort's intermingled personality--and when both hearts were released, he only retained bits and pieces. To use a metaphor, Xemnas is a game console from which all of the discs have been ejected, and all of the hard disk games have been removed. The only thing remaining are the save files, from which he can make vague inferences about what those games might have been like.

Since those fragmented memories only allow him to understand hatred and rage, he doesn't seek Aqua and Ven's salvation because he cares about them. They're simply all he has left to cling to. He gives them the status of "friends", yet he doesn't understand what friendship is. While it's clear that Terra's will stayed with Xemnas, his motives didn't--and that is ultimately what distinguishes them. Xemnas is trying to claim an identity that, when everything is taken account of, isn't his; he has no identity that is uniquely his own.

Of course, this all depends upon how much of Terra remained with Xemnas:
If only a fraction of Terra lies within, he's a monster. If Xemnas contains the clear majority of Terra's substance, he's a martyr (albeit in a twisted sense).

This is actually exactly how I see it.
Just as Ansem SoD isn't exactly "Master Xehanort," and Roxas is neither Ven nor Sora, Xemnas is not Terra.

But I think for the sake of simplifying things (and perhaps at the risk of oversimplifying them), it is easy to conceptualize Ansem SoD as MX and Xemnas as Terra.

Think of Terranort/Apprentice Xehanort as a funnel. Two substances went into this funnel (MX and Terra, disregarding Eraqus who plays a more minor role). These substances were mixed and then removed. Neither is entirely pure upon exiting (that is, both substances contain a bit of each other), but two substances nonetheless came out. Two substances in, two similar substances come out.

For the most part, MX's identity lives on through Ansem SoD and Terra's identity lives on through Xemnas, even if the two are different beings. The nature of these beings accounts for many of their differences compared to their original counterparts.

For example, Ansem SoD appears much more obsessed with darkness than does MX. MX was more concerned with balance, even if his views were warped toward darkness, whereas Ansem SoD threw out these notions of "balance" in favor of complete darkness. This can be explained by the fact that Ansem SoD himself is a darker existence than MX. He is intertwined with the Guardian, a Heartless, and has engulfed his own heart in darkness, so it is no surprise that his world views have adjusted.

The same applies to Terra and Xemnas.
Terra espouses his belief in absolute light, yet, in his heart, he is actually willing to use darkness, whatever is necessary to achieve the power needed to get the job done.
As a Nobody, Xemnas is rejected by both the light and darkness, yet also desires both. This rejection, along with the state of his emotions that I described in the op, accounts for his bitter attitude. He is not, to say, entirely heartless. He actually does associate with other Nobodies ("Share your power with all Nobodies!"), and he still identifies Aqua and Ven as friends (even if this is a hollow term to him now, as he no longer can feel the emotions that accompany friendship). If nothing more, Xemnas is the embodiment (or remnant) of Terra's will, his promise, one that has strayed off the path due to the circumstances I've described. A will that crushes anything in its way, without regard for the lives of those around it.
 

Unrequited Lust

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Do you think Xehanort's heartless and Xemnas ever shared words?

I have always pondered over that ever since I saw the Kingdom Hearts Final Mix Ultimania cover. What would they have said to each other?
 

digimikej

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i think itd be pretty funny. itd be a ery intellektual konersation, and it would also be pretty interesting, as itd reeal who is more of what. for eksample, if emnas rlly IS emotionless terra (thought by a few ppl i know), i kould see him wanting to rip ansem SoD to shreds for being so.....ebil. (rawr broken keyboard making me seem like a man with an IQ of 3)
 

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I doubt Xemnas and Ansem SoD ever spoke to each other. when Xemnas entered the room of sleep in Hollow Bastion he actually went as far as to destroy the surveillance camera once he was spotted, it appeared as if he purposely avoided any sort of contact with his other side.
 

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I doubt Xemnas and Ansem SoD ever spoke to each other. when Xemnas entered the room of sleep in Hollow Bastion he actually went as far as to destroy the surveillance camera once he was spotted, it appeared as if he purposely avoided any sort of contact with his other side.

Hm, so that's what that was about. So he knew all along that he had a Heartless? I assumed that he was always ignorant of that but whatever. I thought the reason why Xemnas destroyed that surveillance camera was so that Leon and co. won't catch him red-handed.
 
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