did anybody else... hate Aqua?

[Grey]

Also unlike the others Aqua never really grows as a person

Well, character development is always great, but Aqua did in fact grow as a character. It's just that she didn't have much room to grow.

The entire story, Aqua was the one who was worried about Ven and Terra. In the end, she grabbed Ven to keep him from being lost, and that's the only reason Ven's body wasn't lost amongst the ocean of worlds. She sacrifices herself (as well as her Keyblade and armor) to send Terra back to the realm of light, sending herself into the realm of darkness.

She's the "guardian." She, the only Master of the three, takes on a parenting role similar to Terra's and Aqua's over Ven--however, Aqua also looks out for Terra. She ends up being a voice of reason and a big sister to even Terra, who is mature enough as is. Her guardian qualities, while seen the most with Terra and Ven, also apply to... pretty much everyone else. She recognizes her responsibilities as a Keyblade Master. I especially liked how, when Cinderella was being attacked by the Pumpkin Carriage Unversed, Aqua didn't pull what every other protagonist in the series has done by just blocking the oncoming attack with a weapon--instead, she used her own body to cover Cinderella from the attack. That's something we didn't see with Terra and Ven--if they were to do anything like that, it'd be the norm--see oncoming attack, flash of light, then Terra/Ven/Sora/Riku jumps in the way and blocks with the Keyblade in a heroic fashion. You never see anyone literally sacrifice themselves for someone they don't even really know, except with Aqua. That was really awesome.

When she's a character like that, she doesn't need to develop leaps and bounds like Ven or even Terra did.


And she never stopped believing in Terra. It's just that she knows Terra and that he has darkness tempting him, and after hearing Maleficent's words and witnessing the sorts of things he had done, she began to have her doubts. Her hope was not completely gone, obviously, because her doubts went away just as quickly as they appeared. Aqua's the reasonable and logical one of the three--it makes sense that, even though she's involved in the wonderful all-trusting friendship gushy stuff that the protagonists of this series are all into, she's still a logical person.


I loved Aqua and I loved Aqua's story. I felt like Ven's was a little boring because it was so similar to Sora's, which is what we're used to. Ven's was good, but when you take a story and character that's very similar to what we've always had and you compare it to two other scenarios that are wildly different than what we're used to, it's easier to like the different ones more. Aqua was the most different, because we've never really had a heroine that was feminine yet still a skillful fighter. Aqua wasn't the damsel in distress, she was the one jumping in to save and protect that damsel; yet, at the same time, her femininity is still apparent, especially when you see her interactions in Olympus Coliseum.

Her voice actress was emotionless, but her character is one of the most unique we've ever seen in this series, ever.

 

[destinykh]

There's one scene (though I can't remember which world it was, Neverland maybe?) where she realized that maybe it was Ven's time to leave and grow up.

Actually, that was in Dwarf Woodlands.

Side note, this is a complaint Smile and I have in common: World order. I find Aqua to be a very unique and intriguing character. But do I consider her character development pitch perfect? Not really. There are some fascinating developments for her, but it just does not feel as consistent as I would have liked. And these problems boil down to the world order. Likewise, but only ten times worse, in Terra's story.

How were they bipolar in any way? :/

The Radiant Garden fight scene. It happened too fast to be believable. Aqua says Terra is going down a dark path, but what did she see to justify her accusations? Some old hag possibly lying to both her and Ven about how Terra helped her with something. It's all good until you realize that we are never actually shown whether Aqua knows what Terra actually did for Maleficent. This one incident is still explainable, but then we reach Castle of Dreams and Dwarf Woodlands, where it is almost proven that Terra never did anything dark in one world, and had no idea what he was up to in the other. She did not even know that Terra scared Snow White into the forest, and that's a great missed opportunity to play up the tension.

So in actual fact, the only dark thing Aqua knew Terra did was in Enchanted Dominion. That alone should not have caused her to lose faith in Terra just yet, considering she displayed such strong faith in him in LoD. Now, the RG fight scene itself is great, but it's placed too early in the game to make sense.

It's just that she didn't have much room to grow.

Actually,she has a LOT of growing to do IMO. She is portrayed as one totally dedicated to her Keyblade Master title and mission, going so far as to put these above friendship. Even Ven calls her out for it, telling her that being a Keyblade Master has gone to her head. And it has. Aqua keeps preaching to Terra about how he's going down a dark path when she has no idea about his struggles. Like Eraqus, she has this philosophy: Light good, dark bad. Darkness can only be destroyed the hand of justice that is light. But even the Fairy Godmother knows this is not true. That's why she was prevented from beating up Lady Tremaine and her daughters in Castle of Dreams. Even by the game's end, she says "What else is Darkness but hate and rage?". Ven felt both just fine even with a heart of pure light.

She also has this somewhat tiring, overprotective motherly attitude towards people. She treats Ven like a five year old and she calls out Peter Pan for giving the Lost Boys some tough love.

These are all real flaws to her, but they make me appreciate her. Again, however, how she develop from these flaws are still rather patchy IMO.

 

[Ikkin]

Actually, that was in Dwarf Woodlands.

Side note, this is a complaint Smile and I have in common: World order. I find Aqua to be a very unique and intriguing character. But do I consider her character development pitch perfect? Not really. There are some fascinating developments for her, but it just does not feel as consistent as I would have liked. And these problems boil down to the world order. Likewise, but only ten times worse, in Terra's story.

I dunno, I think the world order itself is fine once you realize that KH characters don't develop in a straight line.

The pattern tends to be, learn something -> fail at implementing it -> have learning reinforced -> fail a little less -> have learning reinforced again -> succeed instead of, learn something -> immediately implement it and become a better person. The best non-BbS example of this, of course, is Riku, both in Reverse/Rebirth and in the series as a whole.

The characters are struggling against deeply-held beliefs; it'd be weird if they didn't backslide incessantly.

The Radiant Garden fight scene. It happened too fast to be believable. Aqua says Terra is going down a dark path, but what did she see to justify her accusations? Some old hag possibly lying to both her and Ven about how Terra helped her with something. It's all good until you realize that we are never actually shown whether Aqua knows what Terra actually did for Maleficent. This one incident is still explainable, but then we reach Castle of Dreams and Dwarf Woodlands, where it is almost proven that Terra never did anything dark in one world, and had no idea what he was up to in the other. She did not even know that Terra scared Snow White into the forest, and that's a great missed opportunity to play up the tension.

So in actual fact, the only dark thing Aqua knew Terra did was in Enchanted Dominion. That alone should not have caused her to lose faith in Terra just yet, considering she displayed such strong faith in him in LoD. Now, the RG fight scene itself is great, but it's placed too early in the game to make sense.

I'll agree that they really ought to have had the Dwarves tell Aqua about the guy with a Keyblade who "attacked" Snow White, to give her a better reason to doubt him.

Though I think the Enchanted Dominion thing is more powerful than you give it credit for. While it's true that she doesn't actually hear Maleficent's claim that Terra stole Aurora's heart, she does hear three other things:

1) Terra's hurt somebody. She doesn't know who or how, but that's still not a good thing to hear.
2) After Terra arrived, Maleficent knew about the Keyblade and its power to unlock hearts. Since she hasn't mentioned knowing Xehanort yet, Aqua's forced to assume that Terra told her. I'm not sure it ever really sinks in that this was Xehanort's doing, so it would add to her doubt.
3) Terra fully embraced the darkness in his heart. This is the clincher. It doesn't really matter what he did, at this point, because Terra falling to darkness is what she's really afraid of.

To compound this even further, the one who tells her this is Maleficent, who seems to be unnaturally convincing in general, and this is the last thing Aqua hears before she goes to Radiant Garden. So she's not thinking, "Terra messed up once, but seems to have righted himself." Her mind is stuck on, "oh man, what did Terra do?"

Because of that, she ends up being overly blunt when she finally meets Terra, and flubs up the conversation because she can't talk her way out of a paper bag. And she instantly regrets it, as seen by her "I'm anything but a hero" line in Disney Town.

Even by the game's end, she says "What else is Darkness but hate and rage?". Ven felt both just fine even with a heart of pure light.

I'm going to have to call this out, because I don't think Ven was ever intended to display hatred and rage, just righteous anger.

Hatred and rage are "blind" emotions - they render you incapable of seeing what's really going on (that's why they're "dark"). Ven never reaches that point - he's furious, but not out of control.

 

[lilVon]

*Steps into spoiler section for 1st time in 3 weeks*

ha! I remember this thread, goog times!

 

[Chrono Mizaki]

I like to point out about what I seem to started off the 'Birth by Sleep' vs. 'Days'. 358/2 Days does seem like the better story when written on paper. In practice, it's a downright terrible mess with literally bad pacing. It didn't help matters even with a novel writer on board, because it felt like the story was just shoehorned into the game rather than making the game and the story go hand in hand.

That is from my view, that 358/2 Days is a game that's trying to catch up with its own narrative. Sure, we might find some good in the narrative, but fuck, we can have Smile selling us the whole world with its great development in Days. But from my view, it's a fucking heap of mess. The game let its story down and frankly, my opinion is this:

I respect you like Days for the storyline. But if the game is a heaping pile of mess that plays catch-up to the story, then Days is best off being a novel or even a manga. I take pride and I love my story, but I wouldn't play your game if I had to complete 20 missions that hasn't diversify itself in the same location just to see how Xion is in pain.

And you know, I still think Xion is a terrible character.

 

[Reika]

Actually, that was in Dwarf Woodlands.

Side note, this is a complaint Smile and I have in common: World order. I find Aqua to be a very unique and intriguing character. But do I consider her character development pitch perfect? Not really. There are some fascinating developments for her, but it just does not feel as consistent as I would have liked. And these problems boil down to the world order. Likewise, but only ten times worse, in Terra's story.

No development is perfect, so I agree that Aqua's certainly wasn't. I think the main flaw is, as was pointed out, how fast it happened. I think they squeezed too much for such a short space of time. It wasn't as gradual as it should have been.

The Radiant Garden fight scene. It happened too fast to be believable.

For me, I always figured that was because that was the first time they had all been together in a while. Sure, they met in other worlds, but not all together. At Radiant Garden, they finally were, and things just spilled out.

Aqua says Terra is going down a dark path, but what did she see to justify her accusations? Some old hag possibly lying to both her and Ven about how Terra helped her with something. It's all good until you realize that we are never actually shown whether Aqua knows what Terra actually did for Maleficent.

I agree with Ikkin, Enchanted Dominion had more of an impact than you think. Maleficent had information that Aqua sure as hell didn't tell her. The only way for her to have know some of the things she's known (like about Xehanort, and the Keyblade) would be if Terra was her source of information. Aqua realized this, too, AT Enchanted Dominion.
Proof that Terra at least worked with Meleficent is proven when Aqua finds out about Aurora's stolen heart (only Keyblades can unlock hearts, remember).
Although I do agree that this world alone is kind of... petty to base her opinion on. She was right to be suspicious, but she didn't know about a lot of what he had done until after Radiant Garden.
Regardless, I can definitely see her voicing such suspicions, based on Enchanted Dominion, at Radiant Garden, but she was harsher than she needed to be. But I see this as a character flaw, and proof that she was blinded by her duties at times.

This one incident is still explainable, but then we reach Castle of Dreams and Dwarf Woodlands, where it is almost proven that Terra never did anything dark in one world, and had no idea what he was up to in the other. She did not even know that Terra scared Snow White into the forest, and that's a great missed opportunity to play up the tension.

I do agree with this. I found the Dwarf Woodlands on Aqua's story to be useless to the overall plot anyway, so her finding out about Terra would have made that world at least somewhat useful, if not necessary to explain later actions.

 

[Grey]

Actually,she has a LOT of growing to do IMO. She is portrayed as one totally dedicated to her Keyblade Master title and mission, going so far as to put these above friendship. Even Ven calls her out for it, telling her that being a Keyblade Master has gone to her head. And it has. Aqua keeps preaching to Terra about how he's going down a dark path when she has no idea about his struggles. Like Eraqus, she has this philosophy: Light good, dark bad. Darkness can only be destroyed the hand of justice that is light. But even the Fairy Godmother knows this is not true. That's why she was prevented from beating up Lady Tremaine and her daughters in Castle of Dreams. Even by the game's end, she says "What else is Darkness but hate and rage?". Ven felt both just fine even with a heart of pure light.

That was never really brought up as a flaw in her character, though. If it was, a better job probably could have been done establishing it, because while it's clear enough that she agrees with Eraqus most of the three, she still doesn't seem to be flawed by her strong affinity with light.

For that (as well as the messed up Radiant Garden scene), I blame the title being on the PSP. Content needed to be removed in order to make the game run with less lag. From what we know, Terra was much more openly evil, at least earlier on before things were changed. I feel as though, had the title been produced on the PS2 or PS3, more obvious development for all three characters--Terra struggling more with darkness, Aqua seeing more to base her accusations towards Terra on, Ven having more time to transition from his states of mind (his searching for new friends seemed really sudden and random to me, for example)--could have happened. I condemn the PSP moreso than Squenix for this.

She also has this somewhat tiring, overprotective motherly attitude towards people. She treats Ven like a five year old and she calls out Peter Pan for giving the Lost Boys some tough love.

These are all real flaws to her, but they make me appreciate her. Again, however, how she develop from these flaws are still rather patchy IMO.

Terra also treats Ven like a five year old. Terra says "He can take care of himself" when Master Eraqus's balls of light are corrupted by Master Xehanort, but that's the only time Terra seems sure of Ven's abilities. Before that scene, Terra tells Ven he's "too young to know" the truth behind an obscure statement of Terra's. Even at the end of the game, before Ven can even say his bit, Terra acts like the big brother who is comforting a crying child even though Ven has clearly matured past that stage. Sure, Aqua acts motherly towards Ven (and other people as well), but Terra's a big culprit of treating Ven like he's mentally retarded too.

I personally agreed with Aqua when Peter Pan was coming down on the Lost Boys, so I suppose that's just a matter of opinion.

 

[Ikkin]

That was never really brought up as a flaw in her character, though. If it was, a better job probably could have been done establishing it, because while it's clear enough that she agrees with Eraqus most of the three, she still doesn't seem to be flawed by her strong affinity with light.

Kingdom Hearts never really brings things up as flaws, though. It usually just shows characters doing what they do, how the other characters react to it, and lets us decide how to see them.

Aqua herself certainly seems to think she messed up really badly, though, considering how down on herself she is in Disney Town ("I'm anything but a hero"). And she makes a point of changing her approach to Terra at the Keyblade Graveyard, letting him explain himself without implying anything.

Besides, we get two other perspectives in Ven and Terra, both of whom don't appreciate that behavior from her. (Terra eventually decides she was right, but Terra's really messed up by that point)

From what we know, Terra was much more openly evil, at least earlier on before things were changed.

I fail to see how that would be a good thing. -_- Terra's so much better the way he is.

Seriously, "sweet, caring guy who struggles to reconcile his natural tendency towards darkness with his deeply-held belief that darkness is evil" is about a thousand times more interesting than "bad boy loner who falls to the Dark Side due to his ruthless pursuit of his (good) goals." If moving the game to PSP was responsible for that, I'd be glad it's not a console game.

 

[Grey]

Terra being more openly evil would also give him more character development (especially if he ended up the same way as he did in the final version of the game; it's not as if he'd have to stay openly evil, anyway), and it would have made Aqua's and Ven's reactions more logical than they were in the finalized version. I could totally tell that Terra was supposed to be more openly evil given by Aqua's and Ven's reactions, and it saddened me that the game wasn't polished enough to cover up those minor inconsistencies.

While I agree that Terra's story was generally better than what it would have been--Terra avoided being an exact copy of Riku by staying a "good" guy--my point was that because of drastic changes made to the storyline during production, the game ended up feeling a little incomplete, and a little inconsistent, especially with character reactions.

But then, all of that would have been fixed by adding more dialogue from the characters.

 

[Goldpanner]

What the hell was Riku doing all that time, if what he wanted to do was help Sora? He knew for a good while what needed to happen for Sora to wake up. Nothing could've changed Xion's fate. And waiting only made for a bigger risk out of Xion and Xemnas' plans for her.

He was waiting for Xion to make the decision herself, according to the Days novels.

 

[Smile]

Final verdict.
I don't like her. I'm not sure I hate her, mostly because the game as a whole irritates me to no end. there're so many lessons she had shoved down her throat she never listened to that could've saved so much grief later on.
Because really, what's the point of the Fairy telling her you can't fight Darkness with Light if she came and slapped Terra with a large trout later on?

As for the Radiant Garden scene:
Years on years of training together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old hag with a high chance of lying spewing nonsense.
I could somehow put up with it in Terra and Ven's scenarios because I didn't see Aqua's side so I could give her the benefit of the doubt, but then I did... and out of the three worlds she's been to one was the wasted Dwarf Woodlands. Hardly enough for me to accept her strict attitude, but seeing how she's the star pet student of a man who was willing to off not one but two of his students, his children, for a goal that might've not made all that much of a difference? (Aqua's X-Blade material substitute and Xehanort made sure he'd have backup plans in case Terra didn't work)
...
Bleh. BLEH I SAY.

So yeah. No likey. Though that might change if they show her in a better paced game. Pacing and characterization were all over the place in this game and the motifs and concepts were there for the lulz.
I swear, Vanitas isn't Darkness; he's trollnig and lulz, the abundant amount the writing couldn't fit into itself.

 

[Goldpanner]

Years on years of training together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old hag with a high chance of lying spewing nonsense.

Perhaps it was the years of training together and her intimate knowledge of his personality that actually made the lies easier to accept.

I mean, Erauqs knew, and told us at the start of the game, that Terra was obsessed with power for it's own sake. (And he was, in the beginning; we watched him find a reason for that power, his friends, over the course of the game.)

I'm sure Aqua knew this about Terra just as Erauqs did... which would have made Maleficent's lies easier to believe.

 

[Smile]

Eraqus was also ready to declare Terra as Master until Master Xehanort told him not to. So it shows a bit about Eraqus's decision making abilities.

You do have a point but it makes me dislike Aqua and Eraqus even more since it paints them in rather a hypocritical as well as idiotical light. If you knew, all these years, that Terra was like that... why not do anything about it? And why make him Master if he was like that only to make things worse by breaking the dream he worked so hard on?

I know Eraqus asked what he has to do to get through to Terra but it's on the "say so" level. I can't believe for the life of me, going by what was shown, that Eraqus really was Terra's "father". And if Aqua was so buddy-buddy and happy-go-lucky with Terra at the start of the game without them bothering to show us distrust, on the contrary - they see Aqua putting him on a pedestal. So either it's because she's really distrusting and is trying to hold onto something, but then they pulled it out of nowhere, or it's whacked.
Hence why I keep saying that my opinion about Aqua might change if she was written in a better game. Make her character more solid, alternatively, explain why she acts in the ways I disapprove of and can't understand.

They just painted far too pink a picture at the start for me to believe there was this much distrust going on.

 

[Goldpanner]

I wouldn't say there was distrust, just that it didn't come as a complete surprise to her. I mean, I love my brother very much and I trust him with many things, but if I hear he's done something stupid and is in trouble I'm not surprised, because I know it's just his personality.

And I've known my brother his whole life, and I've tried to talk to him and help him for years, but he's just not going to change until he figures it out and makes it happen himself. Doesn't mean I love him any less, doesn't mean I don't trust him to do his best. But I'm still not surprised when I hear he's done something silly like throw ink at someone and get himself suspended.

And where did you get that bit about MX telling Eraqus not to make Terra a Master...? Was that in an interview I didn't read?

 

[Reika]

Eraqus was also ready to declare Terra as Master until Master Xehanort told him not to. So it shows a bit about Eraqus's decision making abilities.

I don't recall Eraqus making the decision because "Xehanort told him not to." To my understanding, they came to the decision TOGETHER. :/ It could just as easily been Eraqus' decision, not Xehanort's.
If there's something I've forgotten that proves me wrong, my apologies and I retract my statement. Otherwise, my post stands.

You do have a point but it makes me dislike Aqua and Eraqus even more since it paints them in rather a hypocritical as well as idiotical light. If you knew, all these years, that Terra was like that... why not do anything about it? And why make him Master if he was like that only to make things worse by breaking the dream he worked so hard on?

How do we KNOW they didn't do anything about it? For all we know, Eraqus was disappointed that Terra resorted to the darkness he supposedly suppressed through training. And it actually kinda sounds like that's the case, judging by Eraqus' own words and reactions:

Terra, you failed in keeping the darkness sufficiently in check.

Why would Eraqus make a decision that big because it happened ONE time, for the first time? There's probably more to it than that; Terra probably had darkness issues before, trained to suppress it, and then "failed" to during the exam, leading Eraqus to believe he wasn't ready to be a Master after all.

But, how can I, when you are so obsessed with power? Terra, you mustn't be afraid of losing.

Again, I think there's more to it than just that. It would be hard to come to that conclusion based on Terra's actions in the Mastery exam alone. Meaning this probably isn't the first time this has happened. Terra most likely had issues with darkness and power prior to the exam, and trained to rid himself of it, then failed to do so during the exam (thanks to Xehanort).

 

[Sign]

And where did you get that bit about MX telling Eraqus not to make Terra a Master...? Was that in an interview I didn't read?

Xehanort's letter to Eraqus.

And on the topic of darkness: we must speak of another matter that concerns me, one related to the upcoming ceremony. When I visited several years ago, your pupil Terra drew my attention. His power is immense, to be sure, but within his heart I could see darkness just waiting to be awakened. I know this is none of my business, but I have reservations about welcoming Terra as a true Keyblade Master without taking certain precautions. The traditional examination, perhaps, to see if he has the Mark of Mastery? The choice is yours, and I will humbly respect your decision.

 

[Smile]

But you guys raised my point. If it's not the first time, if it happened before, if there was distrust...
Why make him a Master without the Exam? Sounds stupid to me. Blind trust and father and son and whatever... sure. Right. And then he wanted to kill him. Lovely.

This is in a nutshell what I was talking about. They don't show the important stuff, making for the logical explanations to be nothing more than theories and assumptions that leave it feeling even worse than it did before you tried to excuse it to me. So they're all a bunch of dellusional idiots. I can accept that, I just disapprove even more than I did before coming into the thread.
You want me to believe there was distrust, Nomura? Stop shoving them being a happy family until MX came along down my throat. It's called basing stuff, and yes I know you fail at this. You have since KH1. It's no excuse.

 

[Goldpanner]

Xehanort's letter to Eraqus.

Thank you :3

Okay, well I don't see where that says that 'Eraqus was also ready to declare Terra as Master until Master Xehanort told him not to'.
It just looks to me like MX suggested they do an exam before crowning any Masters, while trying to exploit the little weaknesses and doubt Eraqus might already have had. This manipulation is what he did to Terra and Ven, after all.

You want me to believe there was distrust, Nomura?

You obviously just cherry-picked what you wanted from my viewpoint to fit with how you already felt 'before coming into the thread'. Because my point was about not being surprised, not distrust. It was Terra that misread their feelings and he was wrong.

 

[Z3N]

"Hate" is a strong word.
But she is definitely not my favorite, I think Namine is my favorite of the KH girls. :/
I couldn't stand her until the last episode. :/
It wasn't the VA, the VA was alright if you adjust. Just her character.

But Oh my God teacher's pet much?! x_x
It drove me nuts with the fact she couldn't process anything other than Eraqus's teachings.
There were many points in time (if you look close enough) where she could have learned a different set of ideas/morals.

And the fact she didn't even try and understand what was going on with Terra (it probably would have helped if she hadn't jumped down his throat about all the "things" he'd done) made me want to headdesk over and over and over. Yeah...some friend.

I think the worst part was the fact she never really developed her own opinions on this Darkness vs. Light controversy, as well as anything. :/

Dunno. But Terra was a bigger let down for me. xD

 

[Smile]

Xehanort reffered to them as Masters in his letters and then raised the issue of the exam. Eraqus also said he was ready to declare Terra Master in a Heartbeat which seems to indicate either he's bluffing and sweettalking, even if he means that, or he was really going to do this until MX plotted the test that got Terra to use his Darkness, seeing how Aqua had him in several tight spots during their fight.
It's not unthinkable to assume that Eraqus really was about to crown them and was doing it out of hospitality to MX or something.

Either way though I disapprove of Eraqus's attitude and as a result, since she's the star pet student, Aqua's as well. It reminds me of Sora's treatment of Riku in KH1 where despite it all he took Riku's friendship for granted, only Sora in KH1 itself seemed to have a change of Heart and then a series later to make up for it, but Aqua and Eraqus annoyed me to the bitter end of BBS.