Final Fantasy in Kingdom Hearts

[onewingedhoneybee]

What is the future of FF in the Kingdom Hearts franchise? It seems like they really sidelined the FF/TWEWY characters in KH3, and while I know they wanted to focus on the main story it was still disappointing. Any predictions/hopes for FF in future installments?

I'm honestly really surprised Cloud and Sephiroth didn't appear in 3 considering when KH3 came out Remake was right around the corner. And no Noctis or Lightning either.

 

[MATGSY]

IMO, KH outgrew FF & FF outgrew KH.

KH1 had FF characters to fill gaps that otherwise would've been filled by original characters. Subsequent KH games basically decided "nah, let's just make new characters anyway". We got guys like Ansem the Wise & Eraqus instead of possible other FF guys. Hayner/Pence/Olette replaced Tidus/Wakka/Selphie. Heck, it's gotten to the point where it's become a debate if KH would be better off without Disney worlds going forward, FF is way more expendable by comparison.

From FF's perspective, KH1 was the 1st time many of those characters were seen again after their original games & the 1st time (Gilgamesh notwithstanding) that characters from multiple FF games met. But it didn't take Square very long to realize that they didn't need the Mouse's permission in order to milk their own cash cows. & thus we got Dissidia, we got World of Final Fantasy, Record Keeper, X-2, the compilation of FF7, FF4 After Years. The Final Fantasy fanservice now happens outside of the KH series where it's done on Square's terms & profit.

 

[Zettaflare]

Since Nomura was planning to have Shibuya appear in the next saga it makes sense why he held off on TWEWY cast appearing in KH3(and in San Fransokyo no less).


As for FF who really knows? He was aware of the disappointment that they weren't in KH3 so maybe he will decide to use them again in the future. Would be nice if the Cloud Sephiroth conflict got properly resolved. At least then Zack can be saved, lol

 

[jacklak]

To me it seems like nomura is tired of dealing with Disney considering how long it takes to get stuff cleared. Shibuya and Verum Rex are more final fantasy type worlds I could see the ratio start to drift that way while still using characters like Donald, goofy, Mickey etc.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Nomura thought fans weren't really interested in them considering the series has grown well beyond the need to have FF characters in to attract fans, but it is clear fans still want them. It'll be up to Nomura, Yasue, and Hazama to decide if it is worth introducing new characters in future KH titles.

Personally, I wish to see a resolution to Cloud and Sephiroth's story and find out what happened to Zack. It is an absolute crime that we never got any resolution to that. Also we all want Aerith and Zack to meet. At this point with FF7 in the forefront of everybody's minds, reintroducing these storylines wouldn't hurt. It's still something that can draw in new fans who might be coming from playing FF7R.

If they decide to introduce new characters, WoFF really would work well with Kingdom Hearts.

But...I don't know. It's hard to know where Kingdom Hearts is going from here on.

 

[AegisXIII]

While playing to KH3, you can feel that disney is way too protective towards their licenses (especially the movies). I think the next game will be more final fantasy oriented. Radiant garden, Shibuya, etc... Disney will only be here to support the main cast. Probably Mickey Donald and Goofy, but no big movie worlds. Maybe original disney worlds that are not based on any movies so that they can get full creative freedom.

 

[Zettaflare]

If we are talking about reunions between characters we should also get one between Leon and Rinoa. We know she exists since she sent him a letter in the credits of KH2

 

[2 quid is good]

I think it'll be non existent.

What I hope for are appearances that rival in quantity to KH2 and in of the quality of the Hollow Bastion Restoration Committee. I feel like there's not much more I can say on this topic that I haven't already said at length. But there is one thing I want to address, about the "KH outgrew FF".

I don't think that's very true to say. I mean first of all FF characters really did just feel like OCs. There's not a single other square enix property that offers FF characters in the same vein that KH does, maybe a case can be made for WoFF but I want to elaborate on that elsewhere. I think it's frankly, just silly, to expect people that looked forward to seeing what were essentially 2nd tier KH characters, to be pleased with Dissidia or opera omnia. That's not what anyone here wanted when they say they want FF present in KH. Nomura just thought he could cut corners and get away with it, and it annoys me that for the most part he *did*. In fact he managed it so well that fans now claim that it was always obviously the case that FF characters weren't destined for KH3.

I'm not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion when the kast game released before KH3 was a 3ds game that had 5 cameos from The World Ends With You, and almost just as many remixed tracks. If anything you would expect fans to think beyond the limits of FF characters for the future of the series.

The world of KH felt a lot more alive when I could visit Hollow Bastion five times in one game and there would always be something new to experience than it does with an overcrowded Twilight Town that's filled with NPCs who add nothing to the table except window dressing.

 

[MATGSY]

If we are talking about reunions between characters we should also get one between Leon and Rinoa. We know she exists since she sent him a letter in the credits of KH2

That's not conclusive proof. Letter could be from anyone.

 

[Zettaflare]

That's not conclusive proof. Letter could be from anyone.

When Leon was reading the letter two small angel wings came from it which is a symbol of hers

 

[disney233]

When Leon was reading the letter two small angel wings came from it which is a symbol of hers

If it took KH 4/5 games and Riona STILL hasn't made an appearance, then...her chances of appearing just to fill that gap are...just as low as Midgar or a Jungle Book, at this point.

As for the topic at hand: uh...I'm...not sure. BOTH Disney and Final Fantasy are in an...iffy situation. I mean...rip Disney out of the KH3 story, and there really wouldn't be any different. It's what they did with Final Fantasy, after all.

 

[Elysium]

What is the future of FF in the Kingdom Hearts franchise? It seems like they really sidelined the FF/TWEWY characters in KH3, and while I know they wanted to focus on the main story it was still disappointing.

No truer words spoken. That's why I just treat that statement they gave about wanting to focus on the main story as the excuse it was.

 

[Deleted member 252753]

If they decide to introduce new characters, WoFF really would work well with Kingdom Hearts.

Definitely. It made me smile just to imagine Lann, Reynn and Tama meeting Sora, Donald and the Goofy. I would be surprised if it happens but it would be really fun.

 

[DizneyXBirds95]

@onewingedhoneybee Who knows, I'm optimistic that for KHIV it will be more reminiscent to KH2 with the balance of Disney and Final Fantasy, makes me optimistic we may see more characters from FFVII such as Barret Wallace, Vincent Valentine, Cait Sith, Red XIII; FFXIII such as Lightning, Serah, Snow, etc. and FFXV in Radiant Garden, Twilight Town or some other original world in the series as long as they either provide a purpose supporting Sora and Co., and play a role and not just be "there" for show like Tifa was in KH2.

Nomura thought fans weren't really interested in them considering the series has grown well beyond the need to have FF characters in to attract fans, but it is clear fans still want them. It'll be up to Nomura, Yasue, and Hazama to decide if it is worth introducing new characters in future KH titles.

Personally, I wish to see a resolution to Cloud and Sephiroth's story and find out what happened to Zack. It is an absolute crime that we never got any resolution to that. Also we all want Aerith and Zack to meet. At this point with FF7 in the forefront of everybody's minds, reintroducing these storylines wouldn't hurt. It's still something that can draw in new fans who might be coming from playing FF7R.

If they decide to introduce new characters, WoFF really would work well with Kingdom Hearts.

But...I don't know. It's hard to know where Kingdom Hearts is going from here on.

Let's not forget that when it comes to the Final Fantasy characters that were in the KH series, Nomura only wanted to include just the characters he designed (Cloud, Yuffie, Leon, Waka, Auron, Yuna, Rikku and Paine, etc.) but the staff pressured Nomura to include Setzer and Vivi (FF characters he didn't designed) for Kingdom Hearts II.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I think it'll be non existent.

What I hope for are appearances that rival in quantity to KH2 and in of the quality of the Hollow Bastion Restoration Committee. I feel like there's not much more I can say on this topic that I haven't already said at length. But there is one thing I want to address, about the "KH outgrew FF".

I don't think that's very true to say. I mean first of all FF characters really did just feel like OCs. There's not a single other square enix property that offers FF characters in the same vein that KH does, maybe a case can be made for WoFF but I want to elaborate on that elsewhere. I think it's frankly, just silly, to expect people that looked forward to seeing what were essentially 2nd tier KH characters, to be pleased with Dissidia or opera omnia. That's not what anyone here wanted when they say they want FF present in KH. Nomura just thought he could cut corners and get away with it, and it annoys me that for the most part he *did*. In fact he managed it so well that fans now claim that it was always obviously the case that FF characters weren't destined for KH3.

I'm not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion when the kast game released before KH3 was a 3ds game that had 5 cameos from The World Ends With You, and almost just as many remixed tracks. If anything you would expect fans to think beyond the limits of FF characters for the future of the series.

The world of KH felt a lot more alive when I could visit Hollow Bastion five times in one game and there would always be something new to experience than it does with an overcrowded Twilight Town that's filled with NPCs who add nothing to the table except window dressing.

When I say that the series outgrew it, I mean it in that Nomura introduced 50 characters that all still are woefully underdeveloped which left very little room for him to work with FF characters because he is clearly incapable of handling too many characters. The series has outgrown it because Nomura has made it outgrow it. Does that make sense?

I personally don't believe the series has outgrown FF or really any other property SE could potentially use. I think they could really do something fantastic with FF characters if they really put their minds to it. But we are at the whim of Nomura's wants and desires, not our own. It's clear his focus on on something else altogether.

 

[Face My Fears]

Honestly, I think Nomura got himself into this situation by making Hollow Bastion/Radiant Garden the FF characters' home. Like in KH3, even though I didn't notice/care that they weren't there during the main game, it is odd - storywise - why they weren't present and/or mentioned during the game. Not only that, but their absence during BbS was glaring. I don't think Nomura was thinking that far ahead regarding the FF characters' involvement with KH.

They worked perfectly in KH1 because the series was lacking original characters to fill certain roles and the appearance of fan favourites immediately increased the appeal of the debut game of the series. They also worked really well because Hollow Bastion's role/history was limited. When that world got expanded and got a wealth of history - the issue comes up - do you include FF characters in that history (IMO no because it just seems weird to have a character from another franchise be a major part of your own franchise's main story) or do you exclude them (this choice forces the absence/ignorance of characters that should be connected a la Cid/Ienzo SHOULD be communicating)?

I think Nomura needs to clean up the mess of the FF characters in Radiant Garden -- make their status/relation to Ansem The Wise/Ienzo etc. clear. My suggestion would be to have a one-liner explaining that Leon and the gang didn't really know Ansem etc. personally as they were in the castle, but when the world was attacked by darkness they were all the defense available against Maleficent (which also brings up Maleficent's relationship with them - probably will never get a scene with them). As with Disney, the FF characters EVEN IN KH1 were treated like there was this invisible barrier between main plot and FF characters. Leon and the others were able to go to Hollow Bastion, so why didn't they accompany Sora to help take down Maleficent - the person that destroyed their home world? Why didn't Leon and the gang join Sora to take on Xemnas in KH2? Unlike the Disney worlds where "world order" is the convenient excuse, what is the excuse for Leon and others?

Which brings me back to the issue that is the very presence of the FF characters, specifically the Hollow Bastion group. That issue being that they teeter between relevant or irrelevant to the main plot - which ends up affecting the logic of the series. I think moving forward, FF involvement should be limited to appearances like Cloud in KH1 or Auron in KH2. I rather a FF character show up in a Disney world that either has no Disney party member OR has no Disney villain that has been authorized to fight. There are WAY too many original characters in the main plot and it's clear Nomura has no issue whipping up original characters for the main plot.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

I like the idea of them being party members in Disney worlds that don't have Disney companions. I've said this a thousand times but while I enjoy the FF characters, they are not the main reason I play KH. So what do we do? Will they be in the Foreteller arc, when many fans are complaining we have too many characters already? How do we balance it? There are plenty FF characters I'd love to see like Rinoa, Balthier, and Gilgamesh. They've been pretty strict with FF characters in Disney worlds even as far back as KH1, as the only one you'll see them in is Olympus if not a original world. I wonder if there is a reason for that, Olympus seems to have loads more freedom.

 

[Zettaflare]

It is odd that Olympus was the only Disney world to use FF characters. You'd think it was an idea Nomura would run wild with at the time. Imagine Red XIII in Pridelands or Vincent in Halloween Town.

 

[onewingedhoneybee]

It is odd that Olympus was the only Disney world to use FF characters. You'd think it was an idea Nomura would run wild with at the time. Imagine Red XIII in Pridelands or Vincent in Halloween Town.

What a missed opportunity, honestly. Red XIII in Pridelands sounds super awesome.

 

[Soaked_Pancakes]

I wouldn't have an issue with Final Fantasy's and TWEWY's presence in Kingdom Hearts being wiped if any of their respective stories had been resolved...

Cloud and Sephiroth are still eternally battling across worlds while Tifa searches for Cloud.
Leon still has a past with Mickey and understanding of keyblades that were never explained, and is presumably trying to reconnect with Rinoa.
Zack's fate and lust for Aqua are still in limbo.
Auron still doesn't seem to know much about his identity and ability to form his own free will.
Sora promised to reconnect with Neku, et al. in their real home world.
Sora hasn't given a shit about reconnecting with Selphie, Tiddus, and Wakka after saving Destiny Islands.
Yozora's reality is mirroring Noctis'.

Most of these are loose threads that the series outgrew by having its own original characters and stories outweigh those of other licenses. I wouldn't really fault the series for doing that too much if Nomura just ended these stories.

Cloud and Sephiroth died after their battle.
Rinoa beckoned Leon & co. to help restore Radiant Garden outside of the main city.
Zack and Auron assist Herc in protecting and restoring Olympus, and Sora informs Zack that he and Riku are searching for Aqua. Zack's moved on over the years.
The other Destiny Islands kids could've been seeing playing in the background during any scene there, or even been a part of the beach party scene in KH3. After their home fell to darkness, I'm sure they must also be aware of other worlds and people? Especially since Mickey, Donald, and Goofy seem to chill there sometimes.
Neku, et al. can be witnesses to Sora's battle with Yozora and help resolve whatever this conflict is.

Just end a story; don't forget about it.

Needless to say, I still also have bones to pick with where we left the Grid and Toy Box in DDD and KH3, respectively. Tron was still under Rinzler's control while Sam, Flynn, and Quorra try to escape the Grid (to where, Radiant Garden?), while the toys are still enduring a split in their worldline and are separated from their humans and other toy companions, just like the TWEWY crew were in DDD.

Anyway, if FF stories had actually been resolved, I wouldn't have an issue with them loosing their presence in this series. KH stands plenty well on its own these days, and frankly, needs every chance it can to more properly develop its original characters, stories, and themes.

If FF, TWEWY, or any other SE property were to rear up in a future title, I'm still down with that. Just make them matter, and make their stories close-ended. Personally, I'd much rather that SE characters pop up as ancillary characters in Disney worlds, embarking on their own journeys, than as citizens of original worlds with their own lore.

Alternatively, I think it'd also be cool to just have other SE characters be totally optional secret bosses throughout the games. No story necessary, just a battle against a recognizable character who's decided that Sora's in their way.