You wanna talk about everything being forced? Coming straight from (finally) finishing Re:CoM in 1.5, it's nothing at all. Every line in Sora's story took ages to finish, with awkward pauses every other word, and Riku's story kept banging on about smelling peoples scents and so on. My sanity barely made it through intact, only sustained by the knowledge that I'd beat the only game in the series I had yet to beat, and I'd be able to play my two favourite games, KH2 and BBS, in a couple of days when they came out.. I honestly preferred the GBA version for dialogue, since it was all text based I could imagine that that were speaking normally(I played through the entire GBA version for Sora but couldn't beat Marluxia, so I had the gist of all the dialogue and could skip a lot of the cut-scenes in the PS3 version thankfully).
Geez, this game's story is even more flawed than I remembered.
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Aerith not being dead has nothing to do with appearance though and that there may be differences in both appearance and behaviour is to be expected (Vivi also isn't exactly the same as FF IX-Vivi) as it was explicitly stated that the FF characters in KH are NOT related to their original FF incarnations.
Their origins definitely differ (that's why there are no Final Fantasy worlds in KH and most likely never will be), their appearances and behaviour can differ as well.
Like Taochan said, regardless how the characters look or act in FF proper, in the KH verse it is irrelevant.
That seems to be a pretty common East vs West problem...Western stories, generally, will try to maintain some sort of continuity from one story to the next, especially when using the same characters, where in Eastern storytelling, they will simply tell a story, and not worry about wehter or not there is character continuity.
This is starting to cross over a bit, as you see it in comics, and some of the hollywood reboots, although they still need to classify it as a reboot or alternate universe, whereas in Eastern culture they would just write stories and not worry about continuity.
I finished Roxas' story in KH2 last night (after 5 hours of it dragging on and on and getting my caboose handed to me by Axel 7+ times) and it feels the same as when I first played minus the intense difficulty of Critical. The story is quirky, which was always readily noticeable. A lot of staring at things, to be sure.
I understand the writing is bad. The game is make-you-feel-like-a-Keyblade-god easy. But I still like it although there aren't really any excuses for it to be so poorly executed.
I especially despise how they talk about Nobodies. As MATGSY said at the beginning, how can they not exist? I mean, it's not like they don't have a physical presence. And any symbolism of saying "oh, you were just never meant to be a Heartless, so THAT'S what it meant" doesn't really make sense. Anyone could become a Heartless. They've been around ever since darkness entered the hearts of man. I'm honestly not even sure if I can say Nobodies were retconned to suddenly have hearts. It's evident that Roxas 'feels' which made everyone suspect of that for years.
I guess that's the only thing that really irks me. And it's the central theme for Organization XIII's cover-up of forging the X-Blade.
Yeah, I know things evolved as the series progressed, but that part just feels strange.
I understand the writing is bad. The game is make-you-feel-like-a-Keyblade-god easy. But I still like it although there aren't really any excuses for it to be so poorly executed.
I especially despise how they talk about Nobodies. As MATGSY said at the beginning, how can they not exist? I mean, it's not like they don't have a physical presence. And any symbolism of saying "oh, you were just never meant to be a Heartless, so THAT'S what it meant" doesn't really make sense. Anyone could become a Heartless. They've been around ever since darkness entered the hearts of man. I'm honestly not even sure if I can say Nobodies were retconned to suddenly have hearts. It's evident that Roxas 'feels' which made everyone suspect of that for years.
I guess that's the only thing that really irks me. And it's the central theme for Organization XIII's cover-up of forging the X-Blade.
Yeah, I know things evolved as the series progressed, but that part just feels strange.
You're on the right track here.
It isn't a retcon at all because there is nothing to retcon. DDD does not state that Nobodies suddenly have (or always had) hearts, it only states that Nobodies can grow a new heart when the right conditions are met by themselves.
The issue with the Nobodies was ambigious throughout the series, yet Days and especially KH 2 are littered with Mantras and speeches hammering in the point that Nobodies have no hearts, no feelings etc.
The sheer intensity with which this happens throughout the narrative (How often do Xemnas or Xigbar stress it to other members that they should not behave so emotional because the "can't really feel it anyways"?) leads to the impression that it is some deliberate mindscrew/brainwashing propaganda going by the premise that if you repeat it often enough it will be believed and stick.
There was always suspicion in parts of the fanbase that all these claims were probably not 100% correct, but a majority simply fell in the same trap as the in-universe characters did and believed that the "heart-less" state of a Nobody is permanently unchangeable which was never outright stated anywhere.
It's not anything really that deep. For some reason fans don't seem to comprehend that any FF, TWEWY, or other characters in KH are alternate versions. Even the Disney ones are altered slightly due to Soras presence.
Few seem to realize that Nomura isn't copy and pasting characters into KH but altering them to fit into it.
except many of the things you listed do have answers either scattered in the scenes, reports or interviews.
We don't know for sure. The PoHs full roles aren't explained but going by what we know it's safe to say if they aren't the light parts that they are definitely connected. If GoL fail to fight him Xehanort can use the PoH instead.
It's not elaborated on nor does it really need to be. Everything in the series falls back on the heart so whatever helps them remember is tied to that. It's an instance of Nomura wanting you to make up your own theory.
just go back to 1.5 and watch the scenes of Axel retrieving near the end. You'll see the scene of Xemnas carrying her away.
No. There is no world that Riku visits that Sora doesn't as well.
I wouldn't say ambiguity leads to bad writing but more how Nomura handles it. The things that actually need explaining aren't done so in story but interviews.
Ultimanias aren't enough. The only way to get a full grasp is to read all the interviews. Many details are scattered throughout all of them sadly.
Honestly this is nitpicking a bit here. KH having a will doesn't need to be stated its the heart of everything. If individual hearts like all the cast carry have wills and minds then it's only natural the largest of all would.
That's why this is one of the few inconsistencies you mentioned is actually true. Them being physical after losing their bodies goes against what we know.
But given they was only that way briefly makes me doubt you'll ever see explanation on it.
That might be a bit too much of a trouble (even for a diehard KH maniac like me). I'm fine with my guesses for now ... and if the need ever arises to correct me, I'm sure someone here will be able to help.
I think the same, 7 pieces of light and 7 princesses of heart with pure hearts of light. That can't be a coincidence.
Which is completely fine; however it's a fact how nobodies retain memories was never explained (since CoM bluntly states memories are in the heart).
Just did, and I also checked that day's secret report just in case ... We see Xemnas take her away, and in the next scene she attacks Roxas after giving him an ice cream. Nothing here points to Xemnas "modifying" her so she attacks Roxas, which is the best explanation I can think of too, given the circumstances.
What I meant to say is: isn't it possible for Riku to go ahead of Sora story wise? Visiting worlds Sora has yet to see? I believe they take turns (one is awake when the other is asleep) so their stories do not play out in parallel ... But this is just gameplay (not really important story wise), maybe we're just meant to play each world as Sora first :/
I did say I realize this doesn't need explaining; but the series being named after KH, I just felt it at least needed to be detailed further. Still, I kinda like it better this way, as you can make your own theories or adhere to that of others (Galand...something [sorry I can't remember] comes to mind). Still it doesn't change the fact KH's true nature, power, and purpose is still very ambiguous.
Not really, it doesn't go against what we know, I just think we don't know enough. For instance: heartless are just hearts controlled by the darkness, but can still manifest a physical body through the use of said darkness. Who's to say the mind, memories or light within can't help the heart manifest a pseudo-body?
Can't say I blame you. I only seen so many myself cause I've been here so long and seen them posted as they arrived.
It's a fact but not a plot hole or retcon or inconsistency in the story. Everything in this story revolves around a heart and most of the time that's the only explanation we're left with cause that's all Nomura thinks is needed.
Heartless, born from the darkness of the heart. "Darkness made real".
Nobodies, the lingering person who's heart was lost.
Dream Eaters, born of dreams and dreams are born of sleeping hearts.
Unversed, born from the negativity of Vanitas' dark heart thanks to Xehanort ripping him out of Ventus.
Lingering Will, the lingering hatred and thoughts of Terra's heart/mind taking out it's rage on Xehanort.
Every enemy is tied to the heart some how but not truly explained. Only that they are.
I could've swore the journal or scene conveyed it but meh. Here's the interview then:
link: http://www.khinsider.com/news/358-2-Days-Scenario-Interview-894
She had no choice. Though I do apologize I thought it told why other than just cause.
That's a gamemplay mechanic cause who advances further depends on how you use the drop system. You can use items to delay "dropping" and through this actually get farther with one than the other until the story forces you to switch at some points.
Story wise there are a few times when Riku and Sora are shown to be at the same location just on opposite sides of the dream. So, story wise, it makes it appear they run parallel.
You don't seem to understand that's the point. Kingdom Hearts is the almighty force of this series. The heart of everything converges there and is linked to it, everything from lowly insects, to mortal men to supernatural beings such as gods. Anything bearing a heart is tied to kingdom hearts.
Like anything of such importance it's true nature is never revealed because such a thing isn't meant to be nor can it usually be understood.
Kingdom hearts is their god in a sense and like in any belief system your aware of it's existence but will never be able to truly comprehend it.
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This thread is hilarious. I've got more enjoyment out of KH2 and the following games since I learned to turn my brain off, and just focus on "Wow, pretty." KH2 was where I lost interest in serious discussions about the storyline, because you just know everything will end up being a mess held together by tape, glitter, and glue. 
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This thread is hilarious. I've got more enjoyment out of KH2 and the following games since I learned to turn my brain off, and just focus on "Wow, pretty." KH2 was where I lost interest in serious discussions about the storyline, because you just know everything will end up being a mess held together by tape, glitter, and glue.
I envy that sooo much and I wish I could go back to that lol.
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There's a reason for this. Ansem stated that the reason why Roxas had no memories of his time as Sora was because Sora returned to his human form almost immediately. This implies that those memories leak out from the heartless into the nobody as the Heartless loses its sense of self. Sora confirms that he'd begun forgetting everything after he was a Heartless.
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This thread is hilarious. I've got more enjoyment out of KH2 and the following games since I learned to turn my brain off, and just focus on "Wow, pretty." KH2 was where I lost interest in serious discussions about the storyline, because you just know everything will end up being a mess held together by tape, glitter, and glue.
I think calling KH2 out on its problems is important to me in terms of serious discussions about the storyline. Yes, KH2 ruins everything, but by calling it out, I minimize the damage done to every other game.
Hell, I'm of the opinion that later games in the series are also calling out Kingdom Hearts 2. It's a party and even the canon is invited!
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I think calling KH2 out on its problems is important to me in terms of serious discussions about the storyline. Yes, KH2 ruins everything, but by calling it out, I minimize the damage done to every other game.
Hell, I'm of the opinion that later games in the series are also calling out Kingdom Hearts 2. It's a party and even the canon is invited!
Pretty true, I think. Even if you're not a fan of, say, Birth by Sleep or Days, structurally speaking they didn't leave a lot of us scratching our heads as much, plot wise, even if some plots were...ridiculous.
I think this is a direct result of KH2 being such a hot mess.
Good to know that someone else shares this same idea. I thought it made sense, and all my friends told me I was bonkers XD
Critique of any form of media is a good thing, no matter how old or new. KH2 and its wonky...EVERYTHING doesn't overshadow flaws in the other games for me, but it is certainly full of the most.
First playing the game, I didn't really care. It was the first I actually completed, and I had no idea how to play a proper KH game. The only other I'd played at all was the original Chain of Memories, and - needless to say - that's hardly the same. I never changed Keyblades. I never made shortcuts. I never added armor, accessories, or abilities. I was totally clueless. So I didn't do that for KH2, either.
But through my cluelessness, I still understood the story to an extent. It's not so terribly written that it's completely indecipherable, at least. Though playing it now? I'm glad I can take time to understand its faults. It's obviously not as glorious as I originally saw it, but that's ok. Coming at it the way I did...this game makes it easy to know your do's and dont's!
No need to apologize ... and thanks for the interview, I could swear I already read it somewhere (must have been in one of the ultimanias). But yeah, I'll just roll with "the word of god" then.
I'll go with that, as it makes more sense than the "drop" mechanic.
That's a very good analysis, but it would mean memories can exist outside the heart (which is very likely anyways). Roxas (and Xion, via Roxas), for example were sapping Sora of his memories (though Roxas kinda had Ven's heart, and Replicas are born with a heart ...).
Theory time: though unlikely, maybe Roxas lost the connection to his former heart because Sora reclaimed it as his own soon after turning into a heartless? Without a way to make and keep memories, Roxas then became a vegetable (for 7 days I think?) until he was somehow able used Ven's heart as a "container" for his own memories ...
And am I the only one who thinks the "scratching head" after finishing a game is the best part of KH?
Edit: I think I strayed WAY too much from the thread's original topic ...
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Roxas never lost his connection to his "original heart". In fact his connection to Sora was very strong and was the cause of several things such as letting him wield a keyblade (he uses Soras), it was half the reason for his collapse in Castle Oblivion (other half the reason was Ven), of course there's the tug of war he, Sora and Xion had over his memories, etc.
Much of Roxas existence was affected by his connection to Sora. Though Sora being saved denied Roxas memories it didn't sever the connection. The connection between a nobody and its lost heart can never be undone.
Ventus also had little to do with Roxas. All he contributed was the face and second keyblade. Roxas' "container" was the heart he forged for himself. Hearts are born from experiences as Diz described in DDD and from there the experiences turn to memory.
Memories are like the hearts building block.
If you need an explanation for how Nobodies remember that badly then blame it on the connection to their lost heart. In Chain of Memories Vexen created a card from memories of "the other side of Soras heart" which ended up being a card of Twilight Town meaning he made it from Roxas' memory.
The connection also causes recompletion when the heartless and nobody are destroyed so perhaps it's more like the nobody is accessing the lost hearts memory that flows into the nobody as Tinny pointed out.
It's also possible the part of the heart that is memory lingers in the nobody and from there it grows into a new heart with time. Like how Xehanort leaves parts of his heart in others or how Vanitas was made from a part of Vens heart.
There goes my theory ... But it's possible he only lost his connection to the memories (until he drained them). After all Roxas (and Sora for that matter) never had access to Ven's memories, yet he was still able to use Ven's keyblade.
I wouldn't go as far as saying it can never be undone (the body does perish after all, whereas the heart is eternal), but I agree it's always there; otherwise, the recompletion process couldn't ever take place (as the original body and heart are calling to each other, even after 11 years as seen with Xehanort) ...
But could he grow a heart that fast though?
It's not that I want an explanation at all costs (I already have my own ideas, which we are discussing), I just find it fun debating about these stuff and making theories.
There are only three possibilities I can think of though:
- The nobodies can access the memories in the heart they are connected with (the heartless however cannot, due to darkness taking over or something)
- The memories flow into the nobody from the heartless, but this leads to the question: "where do the memories go then?" The brain? The whole body? Or like you said a part of the heart lingers in the nobody, draining all the memories and (with time and enough stimuli) growing into a new heart (kinda like a liver)
- A combination of both ...
I believe Tinny's explanation is the one that makes the most sense, though there are still other possibilities.
I do realize this will likely never be explained in the series, and it doesn't need to be as it's not even a pivotal point of the story. But it still warrants a discussion I think.
Roxas never lost any connection to Sora.
That he has Sora's memories (after Naminé messed up everything in CoM) is plainly shown in Days when Roxas starts to have dreams and visions about the "boy in red".
However since Roxas' own sense of self has already started to develop he doesn't associate those memories with himself.
That both of them never had access to Ven's memories has to do with the state of Ven's heart. It's injured and inactive and thus sealed away. Kairi's heart for example was active and awake, thus why Sora saw apparitions and sometimes memories of her during KH 1.
Roxas could also only access Ven's Keyblade (and thus dual-wield) after the emotional shock of Xion's death triggered Roxas accidentally accessing Ven's heart and "activate" his Keyblade.
That he had not any "contact" with Sora's memories before was because Sora's own chain of memories was still intact and Sora himself used the memories. It was only after Naminé undid the links of Sora's main chain of memories that some of the links (memories) started to sink into Roxas through his connection with Sora.
From there, Xion started to unwittingly absorb these memories and also to "pull" more loose chain links out of Sora's heart.
That's why it became increasingly difficult for Naminé to restore Sora's memories, as they were "escaping" through his connection with Roxas.
The connection was always there and active (Vexen could create the Twilight Town card in CoM through Sora's connection to Roxas), but there was no memory transfer at all because after Sora was restored by Kairi they co-existed as independent, but connected individuals. Any memory transfer to Roxas afterwards was a result of Naminé unhinging Sora's memories.
How fast a heart grows depends on how many connections a being makes with others, how deep these are and if there are other hearts in proximity.
Roxas was constantly connected to Sora's heart, one of the most powerful around, and had Ven's heart (although damaged and inactive, it is still present) directly inside him.
In CoM, Axel is "subjected" to contact with Sora's heart just for a short time and the development of his "replacement heart" skyrockets as he remarks in one scene "Hey wait, I'm really enjoying this. You guys are something special!" and places a hand on his chest.
These connections already sped up his "forming" of a heart and if you look at Days, you'll notice that Roxas is the Org member who has the most contact and interaction with other beings, not only Axel and Xion or other Org members, but also several other Disney and original characters like Phil, Pete, Tinkerbell, Genie, Pence etc., or, as Ansem the Wise puts it:
Ansem the Wise said:
Just by being connected to Sora gave Roxas already a huge "starting boost" so to say.
As for how the "normal-case" Nobodies "access" the memories of their original self, since only very strong hearts even can create a Nobody (and of those only the strongest result in a human-shaped Nobody), there has been the theory floating around that the original heart when lost to darkness leaves an "imprint" of sorts in the spot where the heart has originally been and it is there where eventually the transferred memories gather.
Given the proper conditions and "nurturing" as Xemnas put it, that imprint may eventually grow into a new heart.
With Roxas, that imprint however was "empty" due to Sora regaining his humanity and eventually resulted in Roxas developing a unique heart independent from his original, with the information about his appearance being provided by Ven's damaged heart.
Sephiroth0812 got the rest so I'll cover this. What I mean is the connection can never be undone aside from death. The only reason the connection severs at death is cause the body dies as mentioned. Any other time such as in separation or even possession the connection remains strong. (until further game notice anyway)
Just started KH2 FM today.
I'm willing to let what you pointed out re: the stolen munny pouch and the "photo" situation slide (or any other issue with the prologue) since I wouldn't imagine DiZ would have have gone the extra mile to have the simulated Hayner, Pence, and Ollette programmed to respond to those situations in a rational way. DiZ hated Roxas and would have put in only the bare minimum for him and his simulation.
I'm willing to let what you pointed out re: the stolen munny pouch and the "photo" situation slide (or any other issue with the prologue) since I wouldn't imagine DiZ would have have gone the extra mile to have the simulated Hayner, Pence, and Ollette programmed to respond to those situations in a rational way. DiZ hated Roxas and would have put in only the bare minimum for him and his simulation.
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