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I noticed that there, too! My first mistake when I joined this site was to create a thread asking why people hate Kairi. Got tons of Kairi haters as a response. So I decided to not come back to KHI for a while and went to KH13 instead. One of the first things I see is someone talking about how they're happy they can talk about Kairi freely there without Kairi haters coming in to bash them and Kairi into the ground like they do at KHI. It's amazing how friendlier they are there. KHI seems to attract more of the fandumb than KH13.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. If anything, the discussions are a lot more intellectual here than in other forums. Sure there are exceptions but the overall quality beats other forums. I think that when you refer to people not "bashing Kairi" it's because there's no real discussion going on. Everyone agrees everywhere else on generic stuff and few people care about correcting people.
Nah, I disagree that this place is more 'intellectual' or 'better quality'. It's just that on KHI there is a large group of people who have been here for years and years, which means people on KHI are more likely to know more trivia and are comparatively older. The double edged sword to that is it also makes this place a circlejerk for people who have been here a long time, and also there is a fossilised collective forum opinion on many things that makes it hard for new people or opinions to break in (aka. 'correcting people').
So nah I don't think KHI is more quality. It's just got more old fans who hung around for the sake of their group of friends, and that can be as detrimental to the community as it can be positive. In fact, there are lots of positives to having a forum that is more malleable and less hierarchical, especially to younger people or new fans, which is why you'll find that that's the sort of people who go to KH13.
So while I personally do prefer KHI over KH13 when it comes to posting on the forums, it's not because one is objectively better, it's just because one suits me better.
Pretty much what Goldy said. The only reason I came back to KHI (this was before I made friends here) was because it was more active than KH13. That doesn't mean it's better than KH13, it just suited me best.
And that bashing Kairi thing (which was just an example), it's not so much the hate for the character that bothered me, but rather the rude way they went about it. A KHI regular (at least I think she was a regular; it's been so long I can't remember) even came in to warn me of the shitstorm my post was about to cause.
Then, after joining the Kairi FC and this club, I realized how immature the members of this site can be. The Kairi haters and Xion fans were especially brutal, regardless of how polite we were to them. I noticed this even while I was still a big Xion fan; I ended up quitting the Xion FC and joining this club because of how nasty the people in that club were. It's like I said; this place attracts the fandumb more than KH13, which is why KH13 is a more pleasant place. The downside is that KHI is also bigger and more active, so KH13 gets boring pretty fast.
(I want to add that this doesn't necessarily reflect on those fandoms now; I haven't kept up to date with clubs I'm not in due to lack of interest in them, so the two fandoms I mentioned might have calmed down. I'm just giving them as an example.)
I just thought of something... imagine if Days had come out after DDD ;___;
Not only could we have had the reveals from BBS grounded and explained properly, we could have had all the true-purpose-of-the-org reveals perhaps!! In the game where it would have actually meant a lot to us! Like imagine if that was relevant somehow, at the time.
Imagine if THAT was the real twist of Days, not Xion. But the main characters never find it out, which makes everything more tragic for us, cause we know their fates in Kh2. Omg. Imagine if Xemnas had actually had a point in Days?? That was grounded in plot based off the stuff in the other games omg.
OH and something I never mentioned that always bugged me! If Xion looked into a mirror, who would SHE see herself as? The black-haired Kairi? Because she said "that girl that looks so much like me". But...how does that make any sense? Anyone whose close to her sees that, but...I dunno LOL What d'you guys think?
I think it was said in the novels that she saw herself as the black-haired Kairi. Not sure though. I think she definitely identifies as female though, because she uses very feminine speech patterns etc
Yeah... it feels to me like you will never get anywhere with them, though. When we look at the games, we think, 'why was this like this? Could this have conveyed something better if it were different? What if it wasn't there at all?' But when they look at the games, they think, 'this has to be here for a good reason'. The starting positions are just too different...
Sheesh, so people who don't like her don't recognize good writing? >_> I'm a writer too, and Xion's something writers would call a 2-dimensional character. 2-dimensional characters don't grow or develop throughout the story, and that's exactly what she is, you'd think they'd notice that.
Yep. I think people mistake screentime for development, really.
They so did!! Ugh, it bugs me, especially Axel being all "Heyyyyyy " bordering on creepy guy hanging with two completely innocent kids (even though I never saw Roxas in general as being all that innocent, but in Days he was innocent from the moment he was born until the VERY last minute when he did a 360. I guess before then he did lash out, but that came across more as whiny) and Riku being all passive.
Why does he keep comparing her personality to Sora's? Xion's personality is nothing like Sora's, besides the selflessness...but Sora's cheerful and perky, but can also get provoked...sure, they're both selfless, but.... *facepalm* And I completely agree, at that point in time it just didn't make any sense for him to just let her make her own decision and hope for the best...because whether it was a nice move or not, there was still the chance that she would've been all: "Nope, screw you, Riku" and decided she wanted to live regardless of what happened to Sora.
Exactly. Riku should have been like, ugh this is hard but I have to do it for Sora. I have to make up for what I did and I have to save him and I don't care what sins I have to commit to protect the people I care about. And he would have sucked it up and kidnapped her. In fact, he probably would have kidnapped her on their first meeting.
"Hey random girl who looks like Kairi and is a member of the Org... HM THIS IS WEIRD I AM TAKING YOU TO DIZ AND NAMINE"
not
"Uh... stay away from the Org, girl who looks like Kairi mysteriously!!! They are bad people...!! /flees into the night"
... wat. THAT'S it? THAT'S the reason?! Then why the hell didn't he restrain himself when fighting Roxas?! He's a BIG part of Sora! WHERE IS YOUR LOGIC, KANEMAKI?
Well, at least the novels aren't canon, so we can disregard their idiotic reasoning if we want.
Yeah. Actually, the novels made a pretty big mistake, trying to say Roxas' second Keyblade was Xion's. It is mentioned several times towards the end. I think perhaps Kanemaki and Nomura disagreed over that, and so she snuck it into the novel version haha
Ah, true. I forgot Roxas wasn't the focus of Days. Oh wait...
Mannn today when I was translating the new Jump scans about KH1.5, I snorted so hard typing this:
The Chronicles of the Struggles of New Member to Organisation XIII, Roxas!!
A young man who was given the name Roxas, who has lost all his memories of the past. Having become a member of the mysterious group Organisation XIII, the tale of the young man's fate begins now!
Yeah. Actually, the novels made a pretty big mistake, trying to say Roxas' second Keyblade was Xion's. It is mentioned several times towards the end. I think perhaps Kanemaki and Nomura disagreed over that, and so she snuck it into the novel version haha
That's honestly what I thought the game implied, that the second Keyblade was Xion's. xD; Despite the fact that her Keyblade was, you know, NOT REAL. Not that the real explanation makes much more sense...
Mannn today when I was translating the new Jump scans about KH1.5, I snorted so hard typing this:
The Chronicles of the Struggles of New Member to Organisation XIII, Roxas!!
A young man who was given the name Roxas, who has lost all his memories of the past. Having become a member of the mysterious group Organisation XIII, the tale of the young man's fate begins now!
A crappy, doesn't-make-a-lick-of-sense twist that we all could have done without. >.> Really, Days as a whole doesn't make much sense to canon. We'd be better off sticking with our headcanon, l-lol.
I just thought of something... imagine if Days had come out after DDD ;___;
Not only could we have had the reveals from BBS grounded and explained properly, we could have had all the true-purpose-of-the-org reveals perhaps!! In the game where it would have actually meant a lot to us! Like imagine if that was relevant somehow, at the time.
Imagine if THAT was the real twist of Days, not Xion. But the main characters never find it out, which makes everything more tragic for us, cause we know their fates in Kh2. Omg. Imagine if Xemnas had actually had a point in Days?? That was grounded in plot based off the stuff in the other games omg.
I mean, Roxas SAYS, "No, my heart belongs to me!" I mean c'moooon, even he thought on some level that there was something there. He should have been all defiant to Xemnas and refused to believe that they didn't have hearts. Then Xemnas being all "murrhurr you've figured it out" and explaining his plans, then fighting Roxas in an effort to wipe the slate clean and start over (removing his heart/memories since he has the power to?), since Roxas had progressed too far and grew too much of a sense of self. And then when they fight REFERENCES TO TERRA AND VEN. And ughhhh.... that sounds so cool. Goddamnnnnn.
Then again that would mean Roxas knew they had hearts when he gets his memories back in KH2, and his conversation with Axel in KH2FM suggests only that he suspects it, but not that he's sure. WHATEVER. So Xemnas wouldn't villain monologue to Roxas, but would talk to Xigbar/Saix after Roxas narrowly escapes about how he knows too much.
And with Namine taking the role of Xion as the girl that influences Roxas to leave, and FINALLY getting a basis for their interactions in KH2. But it wouldn't be a trio thing, she could interact with him in... dreams or psychic connections. So that would also leave Roxas to develop his relationship with Axel without that third wheel-ness looming over them. Days would have been... wow, that sounds good. God you're making me want to do a Days rewrite haha.
That's honestly what I thought the game implied, that the second Keyblade was Xion's. xD; Despite the fact that her Keyblade was, you know, NOT REAL. Not that the real explanation makes much more sense...
That's what I thought for a while too!
It's funny because even the game that focuses on her gives her less importance than you'd suspect. If Roxas had inherited her keyblade, then there'd be a much more solid justification for her existence (not that the explanation prior to Days for dual wielding didn't work just fine...). But all she acted as was an emotional catalyst, which could have been replaceable by any number of things.
I know Nomura's official explanation is that Roxas is wielding Sora and Ven's keyblades, but I think at this juncture I'd prefer that it was Sora and his own keyblade. Based on what we know from DDD, it's obvious that Roxas also developed his own heart, meaning he had the capacity to wield his own keyblade. So basically I want it the way it was pre-BbS lol. Put the focus back on the Sora-Roxas connection.
I know right!! I mean... agghhh!! I mean, just, having the Org-related twists happen in the game where you are one of the Org and already geared up to sympathise with them would have had much better payoff, imo. And what if, perhaps, they kept all the 'seed' identities secret in DDD, just revealed that that was MX's plan, and then revealed them in Days at some point instead? That would ALSO have had better payoff, especially regarding Xigbar. Like, he has been acting like some weird uncle all along then the twist is, he was in on the plan to infect and use you all along ;__;
As you said, it wouldn't make as much sense in KH2 for Roxas to have know. But then again, if we are going so far as to rewrite Days and DDD, perhaps KH2 could have been different? Perhaps they could have hinted that Roxas' departure from the Org was because of some much bigger betrayal. And perhaps Roxas thought Axel was in on it, too. Perhaps Saix could have done something shady to make Roxas believe that...
But yes fight with Xemnas Terra/Ven stuff!! What if Roxas found that chamber where Xemnas was keeping Aqua's armour.. like why make that actually relevant...
PLEASE WRITE THIS GRASS PLEASE ;A;/ DO IT AHHHH
It's funny because even the game that focuses on her gives her less importance than you'd suspect. If Roxas had inherited her keyblade, then there'd be a much more solid justification for her existence (not that the explanation prior to Days for dual wielding didn't work just fine...). But all she acted as was an emotional catalyst, which could have been replaceable by any number of things.
It's one of the ways it's obvious that Xion was Kanemaki's baby. Xion obviously didn't fit into Nomura's existing mythology and backstory stuff, and it looks to me like he wanted to keep it that way. The difference between Kanemaki's novels and Nomura's interviews and then the vagueness in the games themselves makes me think perhaps there were creative differences involved ^^; Who knows, Nomura has also said in interviews that he loves Xion, hasn't he?
I know Nomura's official explanation is that Roxas is wielding Sora and Ven's keyblades, but I think at this juncture I'd prefer that it was Sora and his own keyblade. Based on what we know from DDD, it's obvious that Roxas also developed his own heart, meaning he had the capacity to wield his own keyblade. So basically I want it the way it was pre-BbS lol. Put the focus back on the Sora-Roxas connection.
Aww that is super cute. I agree. Imagine if, instead of it happening right at the end due to that sort of airy crap, there had been a point in the game where Roxas actually had an awakening and got his own keyblade to go with Sora's and then dual wielded as a keyblader in his own right from then...
I know Nomura's official explanation is that Roxas is wielding Sora and Ven's keyblades, but I think at this juncture I'd prefer that it was Sora and his own keyblade. Based on what we know from DDD, it's obvious that Roxas also developed his own heart, meaning he had the capacity to wield his own keyblade. So basically I want it the way it was pre-BbS lol. Put the focus back on the Sora-Roxas connection.
You know what would have been even more better and make sense?
If Roxas was wielding Ven's Keyblade at first and then later on awakens his own when his new heart is developed far enough.
In this case the explanation why Sora could use his own Keyblade during the last third of KH 1 and CoM while Roxas is also running around with one would be way easier as to say that both Sora and Roxas use the same Keyblade at the same time in two different places.
Or really turn it around and say the Keyblades are Sora's and Roxas' own. After all, Ventus' heart is sleeping and probably still not fully healed, so keeping his Keyblade sealed would have been not that much of a stretch. That aside, it has never been remotely confirmed that Ventus' heart had any influence on Roxas at all beyond the appearance making them twins-in-looks (and probably speeding up the development of Roxas' own heart since he went from "Zombie" to emotionally responsive kid rather fast compared to the other Nobodies who were around longer than him. Although that's only a theory of mine).
You know what would have been even more better and make sense?
If Roxas was wielding Ven's Keyblade at first and then later on awakens his own when his new heart is developed far enough.
In this case the explanation why Sora could use his own Keyblade during the last third of KH 1 and CoM while Roxas is also running around with one would be way easier as to say that both Sora and Roxas use the same Keyblade at the same time in two different places.
Or really turn it around and say the Keyblades are Sora's and Roxas' own. After all, Ventus' heart is sleeping and probably still not fully healed, so keeping his Keyblade sealed would have been not that much of a stretch. That aside, it has never been remotely confirmed that Ventus' heart had any influence on Roxas at all beyond the appearance making them twins-in-looks (and probably speeding up the development of Roxas' own heart since he went from "Zombie" to emotionally responsive kid rather fast compared to the other Nobodies who were around longer than him. Although that's only a theory of mine).
That would be cool too! It would also have been a great way to link BBS more solidly within the game, and could have opened up a really cool new twist plot that we wouldn't have seen coming before BBS regarding Roxas' journey to discover his own identity (dropped in the actual game).
However, I do like the imagery behind Sora and Roxas being two halves of the same person, sharing one heart and therefore one Keyblade, like, the whole 'other side of your heart' stuff in CoM and the Nobody/Other stuff in Kh2 was really cool. So I do like them sharing, too. But yeah, for him to have at some point busted out his own Keyblade when his own heart had formed, perhaps after some particular cool event like...
Imagine if his friendship with Axel was actually a plot arc thing. Like, they didn't really click at first, especially regarding Axel's CoM personality and shadiness. But then as the game progresses they slowly (not immediately!! lol) become friends due to saving each other's asses on missions and slowly starting to appreciate each other's senses of humour and they might eventually move on from bitching about members of the Org and their missions to talking together about their memories from the past (Axel talking about Lea, maybe foreshadowing whatever Seed!Isa stuff is going to be revealed?? Or even just grounding the stuff from BBS more, and Roxas talking about the memories he is slowly getting off Sora, which would then cause Axel to feel unsettled cause of what he knows), and have Axel actually start to open up and tell Roxas some of the stuff regarding Isa/Saix or even maaaybe confide a little about what happened in CO, still lying about Sora maybe but at least talking about what he was starting to feel regarding what he did there (perhaps because he is gaining a heart too!!) which would make them actual friends that shared things and relied on each other for real things, and get to see how they got to that point, instead of just staying from start to end at the level of eating ice cream with some Moral Of The Day Line care of Good Ol Uncle Axel tacked on the end -__-
But yeah, imagine perhaps at some point, maybe the first time Axel actually makes Roxas laugh or something, maybe that's when Roxas' heart finally has formed enough to wield a Keyblade and then he has his awakening... okaaay maybe that is a bit fangirly 8D But idk. It would have to be something that was Roxas' own, you know? Not based off Ven or Sora, just something for his own, to solidify his very own heart and give him his very own keyblade. And then, waking up with two would be so weird for him, and he'd really want answers after that. and then with full-fledged feelings and stuff that could finally trigger him to confront xemnas *A*
That would be cool too! It would also have been a great way to link BBS more solidly within the game, and could have opened up a really cool new twist plot that we wouldn't have seen coming before BBS regarding Roxas' journey to discover his own identity (dropped in the actual game).
However, I do like the imagery behind Sora and Roxas being two halves of the same person, sharing one heart and therefore one Keyblade, like, the whole 'other side of your heart' stuff in CoM and the Nobody/Other stuff in Kh2 was really cool. So I do like them sharing, too. But yeah, for him to have at some point busted out his own Keyblade when his own heart had formed, perhaps after some particular cool event like...
Imagine if his friendship with Axel was actually a plot arc thing. Like, they didn't really click at first, especially regarding Axel's CoM personality and shadiness. But then as the game progresses they slowly (not immediately!! lol) become friends due to saving each other's asses on missions and slowly starting to appreciate each other's senses of humour and they might eventually move on from bitching about members of the Org and their missions to talking together about their memories from the past (Axel talking about Lea, maybe foreshadowing whatever Seed!Isa stuff is going to be revealed?? Or even just grounding the stuff from BBS more, and Roxas talking about the memories he is slowly getting off Sora, which would then cause Axel to feel unsettled cause of what he knows), and have Axel actually start to open up and tell Roxas some of the stuff regarding Isa/Saix or even maaaybe confide a little about what happened in CO, still lying about Sora maybe but at least talking about what he was starting to feel regarding what he did there (perhaps because he is gaining a heart too!!) which would make them actual friends that shared things and relied on each other for real things, and get to see how they got to that point, instead of just staying from start to end at the level of eating ice cream with some Moral Of The Day Line care of Good Ol Uncle Axel tacked on the end -__-
But yeah, imagine perhaps at some point, maybe the first time Axel actually makes Roxas laugh or something, maybe that's when Roxas' heart finally has formed enough to wield a Keyblade and then he has his awakening... okaaay maybe that is a bit fangirly 8D But idk. It would have to be something that was Roxas' own, you know? Not based off Ven or Sora, just something for his own, to solidify his very own heart and give him his very own keyblade. And then, waking up with two would be so weird for him, and he'd really want answers after that. and then with full-fledged feelings and stuff that could finally trigger him to confront xemnas *A*
Indeed, one of the things Days is lacking which bothered me a bit is that some foreshadowing things regarding BBS were treated even less than side episodes, like only a slight passing mention of the "blink and you miss it"-variety.
It's clear that they wouldn't reveal major stuff as to not spoil too much of BBS, but they could easily have included some more ominuos stuff regarding TAV, like through the chamber in Radiant Garden (and probably show Xemnas visiting it during the time of Days) or let us actually see some of Xemnas' obsession with finding Ventus (all we get in-game is some side comments from Saix when he talks with Axel). Not to mention that Xemnas having memories of both Xehanort and Terra should probably have clicked some more than just the "so sleep has taken you yet again"-line towards Roxas in regard to his twin-looks to Ven, which could ALSO be directed at Roxas' first falling asleep during the first seven days of his existence (before he joined the Org, these Days get mentioned once and are never addressed again).
To be frankly honest I always disliked that stuff and the stupid notions about Roxas being "only Sora" or just "a part of Sora". He's way more than that.
When I finished KH2 for the second time I already always saw him as his own person independent from Sora. He and Sora co-existed from the very beginning (except some few minutes with Sora as a Heartless, but Sora retained his consciousness and sense of self even as a Heartless, so even that counts).
Sora saying in DDD that Roxas deserves to exist on his own just like himself only confirmed to me what I already suspected from the time when we didn't even have DDD, or even BBS or Days, just KH2 Final Mix itself, the Director's Report and the KH2 Ultimania.
If we look at Axel's personality and behaviour in CoM in comparison to the whole series it seems now more like an act than everything else, while his more caring and outgoing personality is his true one. He does display some instances of selfishness though like even at the beginning of KH2. Although him wanting to get Roxas back could in the light of the new developments also contributed to the not so wrong question why Sora is allowed to exist over Roxas, especially considering he had grown a heart and a sense of self CLEARLY different from Sora.
In his view, Naminé could also probably just be too lazy to separate Sora's memories from Roxas and give them back to him without harming Roxas while DiZ (for sure at first before his change of heart) and Riku (debatable) didn't care at all and only used Roxas as a tool to bring Sora back.
Regarding Axel's and Roxas' relationship:
It's reasonable that Roxas, being at the mindset and knowledge of a toddler(if not even a baby, he had no single memory at all, couldn't even speak at first), would look up and towards Axel for learning though since Axel was assigned to do that, so there would be already some "bias" or rather "imprinting" in Roxas' newly shaped identity.
This was in my view even shown correctly in Days, since every newborn life at first is dependent on some caregiver or psychological "parent" figure.
As for Axel's and Roxas' friendship, they should definitely have developed that more slowly and with more care after Roxas' identity is shaped somewhat.
It's also striking that Axel, considering his CoM-personality, immediately warms up to the new kid despite initially complaining about being the "babysitter". I would not expect him to act as harshly as Larxene towards Roxas, but nonetheless at first more distanced and a bit patronizing/annoyed.
THAT would make a background for as why they don't "click" at first, as Axel is very capable of camouflaging his shadiness and until his sense of self is much more developed, Roxas would not have noticed any of the traits Axel displays in CoM. Even Sora, who's of course not the brightest lad around, has more "experience" in human interactions than Roxas and was during CoM mostly only irritated towards Axel instead of real animosity.
That sounds certainly like an interesting possibility, yup. Funny thing since I made a digital art picture of Roxas' possible awakening platform. *ggg*
Isn't his very own heart already solidified by his very own sense of self and individuality? His whole way of acting and behaving is distinctively different from Ventus or Sora, despite all similarities. His strong sense of independence also hints very strongly at him seeing himself as his own person, like the "I'm me, nobody else" and "my heart belongs to me"-statements. Makes me also think about what Joshua says in DDD:
Joshua: Well, why can't it? By ourselves, we're no one. It's when other
people look at us and see someone--that's the moment we each start to exist. All they needed was for someone to see them, connect with them. And the two
of you were a big part of making it happen.
Axel, and as we know since DDD also Sora, definitely see someone in Roxas that is not Sora, but an own existence.
DiZ seemed to realize that only after his "revenge" was already done and I certainly dunno if Naminé and Riku ever saw him as his own existence.
Xemnas also explains (as does Nomura in the DDD Ultimania), that renouncing your sense of self results in losing your heart and identity, but it is also strongly implied that doing the opposite actually creates an existence were was none supposed to be.
I remember Naminé also only saying that Roxas was not supposed to exist and never that he truly didn't exist at all.
That all being said, I would really appreciate it if Roxas could get a unique Keyblade for his own, although by now the Oathkeeper/Oblivion-combo seems to be his standard (he even uses them in the Keyblade Graveyard scene in the DDD Opening), just like he's now apparently steadily running around in his black coat instead of his normal checkerboard-clothes.
Good candidates for his personal blade however would be either the Two Become One (it's themed after him):
the Twilight Blaze:
or the Rejection of Fate:
I could imagine him dual-wielding any combination of these would also look pretty badass, *ggg*.
BECAUSE KANEMAKI AND NOMURA DO NOT HAVE THE SAME IDEAS THAN SOME FANS, LOL.
(I admit though I had the idea about new hearts at least for Naminé, Roxas, Xion and Xemnas before DDD came up with it).
Indeed, one of the things Days is lacking which bothered me a bit is that some foreshadowing things regarding BBS were treated even less than side episodes, like only a slight passing mention of the "blink and you miss it"-variety.
It's clear that they wouldn't reveal major stuff as to not spoil too much of BBS, but they could easily have included some more ominuos stuff regarding TAV, like through the chamber in Radiant Garden (and probably show Xemnas visiting it during the time of Days) or let us actually see some of Xemnas' obsession with finding Ventus (all we get in-game is some side comments from Saix when he talks with Axel). Not to mention that Xemnas having memories of both Xehanort and Terra should probably have clicked some more than just the "so sleep has taken you yet again"-line towards Roxas in regard to his twin-looks to Ven, which could ALSO be directed at Roxas' first falling asleep during the first seven days of his existence (before he joined the Org, these Days get mentioned once and are never addressed again).
YES agh. It's one of the things that really suffered from Xion's inclusion, imo. That was the price for putting her putting her in: to justify putting her in in the first place, they needed one game to make players care about her, and for that, she needed a huge amount of screen time. That forced them to reduce basically every other elements (other main characters, secondary characters, other plotlines) to basically cardboard, or as you said, 'less than side episodes'.
But I digress, lol. Yes I completely agree. All the things you mentioned should have been given much more importance, and, if this game had been released after BBS (or DDD), it could have even formed part of the actual plot of the game instead of vague hints then a sudden reveal in DDD when it didn't matter anyway. Imagine if Xemnas' true plans had actually been relevant at any point!!!
I think it's a sign of how Days was obviously made because Nintendo was pushing for a KH DS game. I know Nintendo wanted a KH launch title for the DS, only Nomura put it off forever and then ended up making TWEWY instead. And then he put it off more and made Dissidia, lol. And then fiiinally he got around to making it... and left the plot mostly up to the novels author. I think Nomura wasn't really ready to tell that part of the story (probably didn't even have it fully fleshed out in his own mind) but was sort of pushed into making something because the series is such a cash cow. And so instead of actually telling the proper story in the proper timing, he let the novels author come up with something completely different and irrelevant as a sort of bandaid for that problem, and focused on working out BBS instead.
It just makes me sad. I mean I know it's a stupid thing to care about but idk. I really love this series and it hurts to have to remember that the people responsible for it don't always actually care that much.
To be frankly honest I always disliked that stuff and the stupid notions about Roxas being "only Sora" or just "a part of Sora". He's way more than that.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think he's just part of Sora. I just like the coin-flip type imagery. Twins, mirrors, sun and moon, dawn and twilight, sort of thing. Having them both be fully real in their own right yet each exist as one half of the other is just a really interesting idea to me. It also makes it sadder in a way. Like Roxas said, "this could have been the other way around." They are both equal halves, why does Sora get to be the half facing out to the world? Destiny? Ahhhh ;__;
Sora saying in DDD that Roxas deserves to exist on his own just like himself only confirmed to me what I already suspected from the time when we didn't even have DDD, or even BBS or Days, just KH2 Final Mix itself, the Director's Report and the KH2 Ultimania.
Yep and basically every Axel/Roxas fangirl lol. I have read the fanfic where they get to exist as their own people a hundred million times
If we look at Axel's personality and behaviour in CoM in comparison to the whole series it seems now more like an act than everything else, while his more caring and outgoing personality is his true one. He does display some instances of selfishness though like even at the beginning of KH2.
Nah. I don't see it like that at all. I think Axel has had an interesting development arc, where he started out one way but changed, which is why he is still selfish at the start of KH2, but even through Kh2 he changes, and by the time of his sacrificing himself in the end, he has basically redeemed himself. (Kind of like Riku in KH1, only with less succumbing to the darkness and more sneaking around stabbing people in the back 8D)
I mean, maybe that's what I'm supposed to believe now? But I personally think Days diddlys up every single character's development arc pretty spectacularly and I'd rather believe that then believe he was just ~pretending~ to be a sneaky manipulating clever little bastard :C
It's reasonable that Roxas, being at the mindset and knowledge of a toddler(if not even a baby, he had no single memory at all, couldn't even speak at first), would look up and towards Axel for learning though since Axel was assigned to do that, so there would be already some "bias" or rather "imprinting" in Roxas' newly shaped identity.
Nah I also hated this concept lol. I hate toddler Roxas and goofy parent Axel. I hate all the fanart of baby Roxas and Xion being taken care of by Axel >:/ I like badass bitchy kid Roxas ahhh mannn
I dunno. I don't think he would necessarily need a parent. I think Nobodies aren't really organisms, they aren't really human, and in the beginning, when he truly had no heart, he wouldn't develop the way a baby would at all. I think he'd be more like a coma patient (waking up and having to remember things again, and not being able to remember a lot of things). I think his personality could just as well have been explained as the 'other side' of Sora. It's not like they really had anything concrete on Nobodies and I would have been completely happy accepting that.
Here is a meta written by kawree (the lady who translates the Days manga!) pre-Days about Nobody personalities, that I really liked. Of course it's outdated, but it's a really awesome example of using the info present in the first three games to come up with interesting conclusions that would have been valid too.
A Somebody is just what they sound like. The person as they are, at face value--or not so face value--the what you see is what you get. This is...anybody, really...and the way they act on a normal basis when they're just being themselves.
A Heartless is described as being created when the heart of a Somebody is consumed by darkness and they lose themselves to the wickedness within their own self. Now, most of the time, this creates a Shadow Heartless (I'm always surprised by how few people seem to realize that most of the Heartless in the game are manufactured; they're not true Heartless. All the Heartless with that logo imprinted on them are false Heartless that were created by Xehanort and the other apprentices to Ansem the Wise--people don't turn into those [though there is a bit of an inconsistency in the original game in which someone's heart is stolen and they turn into a Soldier Heartless with an emblem on the chest, but it is stated canon that the emblem Heartless are manufactured, so this may just be an inconsistency in the game itself and can thus be discounted]...), and it is made quite clear that most people, when they become a Heartless, lose their form and their sense of sentience along with their heart, leaving behind a masterless creature whose only purpose is to find and collect hearts. If the person in question is of a particularly strong heart and will, the Heartless will maintain its form (as it did with Scar, for example). Heartless of this nature would therefore be the embodiment of the darkness within that individual soul that consumed the heart. By this logic, the Heartless of a strong individual would basically be all of the bad and wicked things about them, amplified. The Dark Somebody, if you will. If someone is overtly selfish by nature, their Heartless would be glaringly so. If someone is bloodthirsty by nature, their Heartless would be more vicious than Charles Manson. When Xaldin tried to turn Beast into a Heartless, he played to the rage and grief within Beast's heart--Xaldin knew that Beast's Heartless would not only be physically powerful due to his monstrous form, but be filled with anger and fierce sad hopelessness and a lack of a sense of self-preservation...because these are all dark traits Beast illustrates even in his Somebody form. He has a quick temper, is easily depressed and down on himself, and was quick to lose hope in anyone ever being able to save him.
Moving on to the most nebulous facet of this triumvirate, we come to the Nobodies, who were never really explained in a true concrete manner; everybody kinda danced around the idea like they were afraid to actually say anything for certain. Nobodies are defined as the flesh and spirit left behind when a Somebody becomes a Heartless (usually the Nobody takes the form of a Dusk, as shown; they are defined as the Shadow's equivalent. Not really sure how the rest of them happen, then...). That's easy enough to understand (although I'm inclined to think there's a bit of a misnomer going on here... If the Heartless are created when a heart descends into darkness and the heart is then released when the Heartless is killed...well then it's really not heartless at all, is it? The Nobodies should be the ones called Heartless, IMO, since it's so harped upon that they have none... But I digress), but what about who a Nobody is? If the Heartless is the dark part of the Somebody, then what is the Nobody? I believe that the Nobody is the repressed part of the personality--the anti-Somebody, if you will. All those pieces of you that you keep under wraps? Those little quirks and faults and hidden talents and squelched beliefs? I think those are what's left behind and transfer to your Nobody. Think about it...if your personality is who you are, and then you lose your heart, quite logically, what would be left behind? Those parts of your personality you shoved aside on the back burner. Those would remain and be manifested in your Nobody. Now, because your soul remains behind in the flesh that becomes your Nobody, there are still strong hints of your Somebody therein...you maintain your deepest wishes and desires, you would likely keep your likes and dislikes... Think of the Nobody as the you that you were scared to allow yourself to be--the you without hesitation or restraint. Or perhaps the you you refused to allow yourself to be; someone weak or vulnerable who leaned on others instead of trying too hard to be strong... It could perhaps be argued that, in a way, the Nobody is more you than your Somebody is, if you really think about it. All those traits you hold back for one reason or another--social propriety, family expectation, fear of rejection, etc--all of those traits would be manifested with abandon in this you that was not you...
I believe canon supports these definitions fully. Even though little scientific notation seems to be given (despite the fact that there are buttloads of scientists in the game), the way the characters carry themselves in their various forms gives more than enough meat for this argument.
Exhibit A:
Let's look at Sora and Roxas for a moment. Sora is, in KHI, for most intents and purposes, the Goodest Good who ever Gooded Goodly. Seriously. He was sweet, he was extroverted, he was honest and sincere and almost saccharinely bubbly and amiable. When given the almost insurmountable task that was his apparent destiny, he poured his entire heart soul and being into saving the world, despite how that tore him and Riku apart. He was a little hesitant at first--
Sora: Well, I didn't ask for this.
Yuffie: (to Sora) The Keyblade chooses its master. And it chose you.
Leon: So tough luck.
--but in the end, he comes through without argument, regardless of the danger he knows he'll probably have to put himself through, or how big a chasm it ripped between him and his best friend. You know there had to be a little part of Sora that wanted so badly to just hurl that Keyblade aside and stop fighting and just stamp his foot in stubborn anger and refuse to keep driving the wedge further between he and Riku. Sure, Riku was his rival, and he was fighting for Kairi's life, but how hard must it have been for poor Sora to know that every move he made was pushing his best friend further and further away from him?
Sora's case of Heartless is a little...ah...special. Sora voluntarily becomes a Heartless to release Kairi's heart from his own body, where it had rather inexplicably taken up residence. So it could be argued that Sora's Heartless can't really be used in this argument; I'll buy that. Even so, if we do take any of it into account, it does still support the ideas I have illustrated thus far. Sora is the Goodest Good, remember? So while he has a strong heart, his Heartless still comes out a Shadow because he has so little darkness in him. It's like trying to wring water from dry cheese--you'd have to try really freakin' hard, and all you're gonna get is a drop or two. Sora just doesn't really have the capacity to be a hardcore Heartless, and so while he remained sentient because his heart was so strong, there was so little darkness in it that he was only able to attain Shadow form.
And now look at Roxas. in Twilight Town, Roxas was introverted, solemn, distracted and not confident--nobody really depended on Roxas to save the day, because Roxas didn't seem at all like the type who could. His friends adored him, but it was obvious they pretty much saw him as a space case who couldn't be depended on to always remember things. Recall how Hayner had to remind him sharply about the Struggle Tournament? Whether or not Roxas's general apathy with existence was deliberate or not is debatable, but the fact remains that while Sora had every lust for life, Roxas pretty much just...was, and wasn't too for wont of being in the spotlight. And when Roxas was expected to take up the Keyblade? He cast it aside and demanded a full and thorough explanation of exactly what the shit was going on before he made more than a move in his own defense. Roxas didn't want to save the world--he just wanted to hang out and spend summer vacation with his best friends. Sora accepted the task and felt obligated to carry it through to the end...but I can't be the only one who supposed there were plenty of times he wished he could have shrugged off all that responsibility. Roxas never accepted any task in the first place--at least not without a lot of explanation. He pretty much said "diddly you!" and threw away the Keyblade, even though Axel was claiming to be his best friend and promised him answers later. He didn't want answers later, he wanted them now, and gorrammit, he was gonna get them or he wasn't going anywhere.
There is a lot of controversy over Roxas's character in Twilight Town... It's argued that since he's lost all his memories of his time with the Organization, he's 'out of character', as it were, as he is portrayed in KHII. Granted, we don't know a whole lot about how Roxas was when he was actually an acting member of the Org yet, but what we do know also supports this rebellious and devil-may-care attitude. He betrayed the Org. He told them to go screw themselves, because he didn't want to take orders anymore; he wanted the answers they wouldn't give him, so he just waved goodbye and moved on to bigger and better things. Or well...he tried anyway. Sora took the orders and took up the torch without much explanation...but that's an awful lot of responsibility for a 14-year-old boy. There had to be a big part of him that really wanted nothing to do with it. Were it not for Kairi and Riku's heavy involvement in the situation, I doubt Sora would have been enthusiastic about carrying the weight of the title of Keyblade Master at all. However there were still heavy influences of Sora's character within Roxas. Above all else, Roxas loved his friends, and even if they were just data projections of kids he hadn't ever actually been close with in the real world, he loved them all the same. Whose names did he shout when the world got too weird for him? Whose faces did he conjure when he felt alone and vulnerable? There are scenes from the manga from when he was in the real world, in the Organization, and he pines for those friends; yearns for the fun they have and the companionship they share. Sora was never meant to be a lone wolf, and Roxas had a hard time being an army of one, as it were, for the Org. That's probably one of the biggest reasons he clung so tightly to Axel in the first place. More on this later.
Also note that, once Sora and Roxas were split...didn't you notice how drastically Sora's personality changed for KHII? he was a snarky sarcastic little punk! I firmly believe that the sudden change in his almost unnatural sweetness to being a headstrong sniping pubescent juvenile punk (and you can't blame this on his turning 15...he was asleep for it!) was strongly due to the fact that that's basically what Roxas was, and once Sora's subconscious got a taste of what it was like to actually mouth off and talk back and put his foot down about stuff...he wanted to keep it.
Exhibit B:
Moving on to another side of the trio we can compare, let's have a look-see at little miss Kairi, shall we? Now, while Kairi's personality is a lot less pronounced due to her truncated screentime, there are plenty of things we can still deduce about her. She's headstrong, sassy, and proud, she loves her friends even though it's pretty obvious at the beginning of KHI that Riku kinda spooks her for some reason (as an aside, I personally think that this is because she's one of the Princesses of Heart, and Riku is so susceptible to darkness. She would naturally feel a strange aura from him because of the opposing powers of dark and light between them). She's independent and would like to think she's not a damsel in distress, even if she ends up being one anyway. One thing fandom often seems to conveniently forget--or perhaps blatantly ignore--is that Kairi is not a pansy. She's a bit of a damsel in distress because she's not a trained fighter the way Sora and Riku are...she hasn't been sparring with her best friend since she was five years old. She wields her own (albeit flowery) Keyblade at the end of KHII, remember? She leaps from a third-story balcony and lands just fine to go and fight by Sora's side. Girly, yes. But helpless, useless, and worthless as the fandom often depicts her? Hardly.
Rather like Sora, Kairi is pretty much the Goodest Good revisited. She's a Princess of Heart, for crying out loud. Kairi doesn't even really get a Heartless...her heart merges with Sora before the islands are consumed by darkness, and her body that is left behind is pretty much a soulless doll. So we can't really compare Kairi's Heartless to her Somebody, because she didn't even get one, for basically the same reasons Sora likely wouldn't have turned into one ever if he hadn't...yanno...shanked himself with the Dark Keyblade and all... With the advent of 358/2 Days, we're given the new character Xion, whom I believe everyone would be likely to agree is at least affiliated with Kairi in some way, but those are theories for another day.
Like Roxas against Sora, Naminé is an excellent illustration of my theory on Nobodies as explained above. Where Kairi was strong and self-sufficient, Naminé was meek and timid and frightened. Where Kairi had good friends she could depend on and be herself with, Naminé had...Larxene and Marluxia telling her what to do 24/7. Whereas Kairi wasn't afraid to speak her mind, no matter who she was talking to, Naminé was a doormat who had no say in anything. Naminé is the side of Kairi's heart that is a weak and scared little girl because Kairi wouldn't let herself be that person. Unlike Roxas, who was the manifestation of the punk-kid Sora probably wished he wasn't too sweet to be, Naminé is the expression of what Kairi would not allow herself to be. When your two best friends are rowdy rambunctious island boys, you can't really be a girly girl or you'll get left behind. Naminé is all of the things Kairi squashed beneath her tough tomboy exterior in order to be good enough to hang around with Riku and Sora.
Naminé's inner monologue in the novels is...so sad. She spends most of her time contemplating the point of her own existence and wondering if she's even worth the air she breathes. She cowers and trembles and follows orders without question because she fears being hurt and getting cowed by her stronger Nobody company. These are obviously not traits Kairi would want for herself, but they're those shadowed parts of her personality that she's probably contemplated and never acted on. What would it be like if I didn't try so hard to be cool? What would I be like if I actually showed how much Riku freaked me out? How would things be if I didn't act so strong all the time? Naminé is the answer to these questions. She is still Kairi--she's still sweet and helpful and pleasant and kind, even when she's being ordered and jerked around--but she's the weaker shadow of Kairi who didn't have the strength to really stand on her own two feet. Sure, she put her foot down in Castle Oblivion when Sora was fighting with Repliku, but other than that, Naminé was a pushover. Kairi was decisive and fierce, but Naminé for the most part was very wishy-washy and sad. Manipulative, yes, and quite good at diddlying with peoples' heads, but meek nonetheless. I believe that Kairi, for all her feistiness and fire, really wanted to be saved... Something in her wanted to be that princess at the top of the tower whose knight in shining armor came to save her from the wicked fate bestowed upon her...and Naminé is very much that frail and fragile princess Kairi never allowed herself to be.
While we don't really see Kairi after she and Naminé re-merge, I'd be inclined to hypothesize that in the same way Sora embraced a lot of Roxas's personality into himself, Kairi's personality would be slightly altered as well. It's likely that she would be less afraid to be vulnerable in Sora and Riku's presence, because the Naminé in her knows that those boys will love her all the same. Riku and Sora were kind to Naminé even though she wasn't strong or fierce or a tomboy like Kairi, and so Kairi would logically come to the conclusion that she's allowed to be much more of herself now than she was before, because her friends have seen both extremes.
It's also striking that Axel, considering his CoM-personality, immediately warms up to the new kid despite initially complaining about being the "babysitter". I would not expect him to act as harshly as Larxene towards Roxas, but nonetheless at first more distanced and a bit patronizing/annoyed.
Yeah. And he was a tiiny bit like that for like, the first tutorial mission with him, but once he warmed up there was basically no change in him for the rest of the game. It felt like the writers went, well you guys already KNOW they become friends You really want to see them being friends dont you OK WE WILL JUST DO THAT~ /forsake everything
Like
I really don't see how the interactions they had in Days justifies the lengths Axel goes to for the rest of the series...
THAT would make a background for as why they don't "click" at first, as Axel is very capable of camouflaging his shadiness and until his sense of self is much more developed, Roxas would not have noticed any of the traits Axel displays in CoM. Even Sora, who's of course not the brightest lad around, has more "experience" in human interactions than Roxas and was during CoM mostly only irritated towards Axel instead of real animosity.
Yes (Only I like Roxas less fluffy naive saviour angel, lol, i like him being equal parts badass and pricky and then a bit dorky sometimes haha)
That sounds certainly like an interesting possibility, yup. Funny thing since I made a digital art picture of Roxas' possible awakening platform. *ggg*
Well, as your quote even just said, and also as AtW said at the end of DDD, hearts are formed by other people recognising you and loving you etc. (I dont remember his exact words... something like children love things and give them hearts etc). He also basically said, and Xemnas said too in DDD, with flower analogies that hearts bud and grow, they don't just pop into existence.
So I think, and this even was pretty much the case in the actual series, that hearts form inside Nobodies slowly, and they grow through contact with other beings and friendship and love and stuff. ("He made me feel like I had a heart"). So yes, Roxas' own sense of self is important, but his friendships and human contact would have been a much bigger influence on making his budding heart grow to a fully formed existence.
I also think that 'renouncing your sense of self', as Xemnas put it, was half a reference to how he tried to trick them into repressing any budding feelings by making them think they couldn't possibly be real in the first place, and half just a euphemism for whatever process they used to become Nobodies (stabbing with the evil MX blade, some kind of machine, idk)
I could imagine him dual-wielding any combination of these would also look pretty badass, *ggg*.
YES. I hope he keeps the dual wielding ability ;___;
(I admit though I had the idea about new hearts at least for Naminé, Roxas, Xion and Xemnas before DDD came up with it).
As I said, I think loooots of fanfic writers did too
That's what I thought for a while too!
It's funny because even the game that focuses on her gives her less importance than you'd suspect. If Roxas had inherited her keyblade, then there'd be a much more solid justification for her existence (not that the explanation prior to Days for dual wielding didn't work just fine...). But all she acted as was an emotional catalyst, which could have been replaceable by any number of things.
Hell, AXEL could have been that catalyst! What better way to trigger an emotional epiphany than your best friend lying about who you are?
I know Nomura's official explanation is that Roxas is wielding Sora and Ven's keyblades, but I think at this juncture I'd prefer that it was Sora and his own keyblade. Based on what we know from DDD, it's obvious that Roxas also developed his own heart, meaning he had the capacity to wield his own keyblade. So basically I want it the way it was pre-BbS lol. Put the focus back on the Sora-Roxas connection.
Personally, I still like the theory that Roxas started off wielding Ven's Keyblade, gained the ability to dual-wield when Sora went to sleep (since Sora would no longer be actively wielding his Keyblade, making it available to Roxas), but didn't realize that ability until later. Would have made more sense than Xion's existence.
YES agh. It's one of the things that really suffered from Xion's inclusion, imo. That was the price for putting her putting her in: to justify putting her in in the first place, they needed one game to make players care about her, and for that, she needed a huge amount of screen time. That forced them to reduce basically every other elements (other main characters, secondary characters, other plotlines) to basically cardboard, or as you said, 'less than side episodes'.
But I digress, lol. Yes I completely agree. All the things you mentioned should have been given much more importance, and, if this game had been released after BBS (or DDD), it could have even formed part of the actual plot of the game instead of vague hints then a sudden reveal in DDD when it didn't matter anyway. Imagine if Xemnas' true plans had actually been relevant at any point!!!
I think it's a sign of how Days was obviously made because Nintendo was pushing for a KH DS game. I know Nintendo wanted a KH launch title for the DS, only Nomura put it off forever and then ended up making TWEWY instead. And then he put it off more and made Dissidia, lol. And then fiiinally he got around to making it... and left the plot mostly up to the novels author. I think Nomura wasn't really ready to tell that part of the story (probably didn't even have it fully fleshed out in his own mind) but was sort of pushed into making something because the series is such a cash cow. And so instead of actually telling the proper story in the proper timing, he let the novels author come up with something completely different and irrelevant as a sort of bandaid for that problem, and focused on working out BBS instead.
It just makes me sad. I mean I know it's a stupid thing to care about but idk. I really love this series and it hurts to have to remember that the people responsible for it don't always actually care that much.
Even with much screentime granted to her it would not have been needed to let her hog nearly the whole story (and nearly all voiced cutscenes, seriously, how often do we need to see her getting owned by Riku?). Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-Xion at all, but her literally soaking up the whole spotlight was more than just a slight error on the part of the writers.
Her story is also be really reasonably sad (and it is tragic considering what actually happens), but unlike like say, with Terra, or Ven, or Roxas, or Naminé, heck even the Riku Replica, her tragic story is so overwhelmingly put to the forefront and shoved into the player's face that I can only consider it overdone, which in turn (at least for me) leads to actually not caring as much as her actual in-universe fate would require you to do if you're not an unemotional brick without empathy. It's a bit like feeling surfeited. You have too much drawn out about her drama in too short time.
Sometimes less is more and distributing the spotlight more evenly between her and the other major characters would also have done better for the whole picture without the actual need to totally remove her character.
Damn, even Mickey could have had a bit more screentime at least once showing what the heck he was doing the whole time during that year Sora was sleeping,
This "less than side episodes" and an almost forbidden neglect of at least the other major characters (Riku, Roxas, Axel, Naminé, Mickey and DiZ are classified as majors after all) and also the main villains (Xemnas, Saix and Xigbar) are what actually bothers me the most about Days. It's not so much Xion herself but the way the writers choose to play out the whole scenario.
It's clear that a game (like a movie) cannot go as much into detail as for example a book can be, so I won't complain if some secondary characters don't get that much screentime, and the non-C.O. Org-members had way enough screentime (except Xemnas, and Saix only in cutscenes) when on missions with Roxas to get a basic overview of their personalities. Like i.e. that beside gambling Luxord has quite some curiosity to explore things and laments being left out of the important stuff.
About releasing schedules and stuff, I would wonder if playing Days again with the current level of knowledge (where Nomura finally decided not to be vague with every fact that got revealed and confirmed some outright) would result in a total different perspective of some things.
If I remember correctly Birth By Sleep was the only story (and game) Nomura had in mind at first when he finished KH 2. He knew that there is the story of Roxas' time in the Organisation which is one of the four he wanted to tell, but he had not yet a clear concept on how it should play out.
Birth By Sleep was ironically also the first of the BBS/Days/Coded trinity that started development (at first still for PS2 before switching to PSP), yet got released last due to the BBS-Team having to help with Re: CoM. When the original Coded was released in Japan on phone, they postphoned the release of the last episode (Castle Oblivion) because it would have spoilt the ending of BBS (the suffering of TAV) since BBS wasn't released yet.
So the notion that Nomura didn't get to release the games in the order he originally intended during planning stages isn't that farfetched. That's also what many people fail to realize when they lay all blame on Nomura. He may be the director, main character designer and responsible for the overaching story, but not all story elements come from him and he also does not make all decisions regarding KH's marketing, localisation or other business stuff.
If I recall correctly though having a girl his own (physical) age being one of the reasons of Roxas leaving the Organisation was cooked up by Nomura himself. Although he clearly said one of the reasons, not the main everything else overshadowing reason.
It's really up to interpretation though as I also know enough people who like Days and right now it becomes apparent there's seemingly more importance to it than was initially thought. Nomura himself also stated several times that he likes to make KH, so I think we can assume that at least he cares. And of course Yoko Shimomura. A big bunch of KH's influence is made simply with her music.
We as fans also do not know the whole picture and what is actually planned for the future. I have set it up for myself that I won't judge the first KH series until the saga is over and I can look at the whole picture from start to end.
I know most likely millions of fans can come up with some awesome headcanon, but that should not lead to neglect of the actual canon.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think he's just part of Sora. I just like the coin-flip type imagery. Twins, mirrors, sun and moon, dawn and twilight, sort of thing. Having them both be fully real in their own right yet each exist as one half of the other is just a really interesting idea to me. It also makes it sadder in a way. Like Roxas said, "this could have been the other way around." They are both equal halves, why does Sora get to be the half facing out to the world? Destiny? Ahhhh ;__;
But that's the point, at least KH2 (which I think some people take too seriously on some statements, also since both Days and Coded vaguely and now DDD clearly suggest the opposite) makes a point about that being fully real on their own and being able to exist concurrently is NOT possible, as Naminé's "You won't disappear" is clearly a flat out lie since Roxas does disappear. His existence ended, only his heart (as we know by now from DDD) and consciousness remain, the former only due to Sora's generosity and the latter forced into an eternal sleep after exchanging those last words with Axel in KH 2 FM. It takes very much goodwill to label that "existing".
In Kid Icarus: Uprising, this is clearly played straight as the Angel Pit and his counterpart Pittoo (aka Dark Pit) can exist concurrently and completely independent from each other. Sure, they have a telephatic link and if one of them dies the other will follow in short time, but there's no one trapped in the other.
Destiny? Nope, Destiny is only a convenient excuse, just like Xehanort uses it to brush aside his crimes by declaring them as "destined" to happen when he actually choose to carry them out. Same with Sora getting to be the half facing out: It were DiZ, Naminé and Riku who choose to let it happen that way.
And surely every inquisitive fan who does not need to be a clear out Roxas-fan to see that Roxas' special status is way more than just co-existing with Sora, and that co-existence also being way more important than some people are willing to believe since it resulted in two different existences and minds. Axel/Lea or Zexion/ienzo are the same mind and consciousness in essence, while Sora and Roxas as well as Kairi and Naminé (and of course Xemnas/Ansem and Xehanort, who were confirmed by Nomura to operate on different minds) are NOT.
Bringing memories together sparks emotion, and emotion in turn eventually leads to the birth of a heart. This explanation Xemnas gives in The Grid is actually pretty simple and it makes me somehow smirk that such big parts of the fandom were just as fooled as the in-universe characters to believe that Nobodies remain without a heart (no one actually disputes that they start without one, not even Xemnas) the whole time.
This of course may also rob overcrazed Organisation XIII-fans of their excuse that they cannot be held accountable for their crimes because they had no hearts, lol.
Nah. I don't see it like that at all. I think Axel has had an interesting development arc, where he started out one way but changed, which is why he is still selfish at the start of KH2, but even through Kh2 he changes, and by the time of his sacrificing himself in the end, he has basically redeemed himself. (Kind of like Riku in KH1, only with less succumbing to the darkness and more sneaking around stabbing people in the back 8D)
I mean, maybe that's what I'm supposed to believe now? But I personally think Days diddlys up every single character's development arc pretty spectacularly and I'd rather believe that then believe he was just ~pretending~ to be a sneaky manipulating clever little bastard :C
But that's the thing, Axel didn't start out one way and then changed too much. These slight vibes of selfishness he displays in KH2 are also present in Days, as are his sometimes rather direct methods and no-nonsense attitude, like when neck-chopping Xion or chewing out Saix, otherwise he also has some vibes from his original persona he displays in BBS. In CoM, the only times I remember him being far more ruthless than what was shown in Days and KH2 was when he killed Vexen and caused Zexion's death (who were both no saints either).
When bickering with Larxene he showed actually more of his "pretended" goofy side as he also often did with Roxas, while towards Marluxia he acted very similar to how he did with Master Xehanort in DDD, serious but often mocking and not really respecting their authority.
Nah I also hated this concept lol. I hate toddler Roxas and goofy parent Axel. I hate all the fanart of baby Roxas and Xion being taken care of by Axel >:/ I like badass bitchy kid Roxas ahhh mannn
Such fanart may go a bit overboard in artistic freedom, lol. But the imagery is realistic and correct.
It's by all natural purposes impossible to have "badass bitchy" kid Roxas from the start when he cannot even form a correct sentence and has no reasons to be bitchy about anything.
What I give you though is that they failed to depict Roxas' personality change from Days to KH2 correctly (again Days-writing ;P). After the small period of happiness and bliss during the early mid-game when shit starts to hit the fan Roxas had a reason to get "more bitchy" and should have been more proactive in general about things. It's ok being sad about things like when he thought that Axel perished in C.O. (which is also earlier and therefore fitting), but in the later parts of the game they missed to make slowly the transition to his more aggressive, moody mindset. He stayed the remotely happy (sometimes sulking and moping) kid when he should be outspoken and defiant to the things happening, because these are some of his core traits. While Roxas does cry and also sometimes curls up into fetal position (as seen in Kh2 FM when Axel gets to their last meeting inside their minds), he also balances that out by being generally aggressive and stubborn when things go awry. They showed that remotely with some of his outbursts to Saix and that one time when Axel chopped Xion, but these were only glimpses. From what we can take from KH2 it looks certainly the way that Roxas reacts to emotional stress and pain with anger first, and only in the second round goes for crying or curling into a ball if at all.
I dunno. I don't think he would necessarily need a parent. I think Nobodies aren't really organisms, they aren't really human, and in the beginning, when he truly had no heart, he wouldn't develop the way a baby would at all. I think he'd be more like a coma patient (waking up and having to remember things again, and not being able to remember a lot of things). I think his personality could just as well have been explained as the 'other side' of Sora. It's not like they really had anything concrete on Nobodies and I would have been completely happy accepting that.
Here is a meta written by kawree (the lady who translates the Days manga!) pre-Days about Nobody personalities, that I really liked. Of course it's outdated, but it's a really awesome example of using the info present in the first three games to come up with interesting conclusions that would have been valid too.
If that word bothers you too much we can also use "guide", lol, that's more neutral.
Nobodies are existences though, even Ansem the Wise acknowledged that back in KH2, which he only reinforces by his explanations to Riku in DDD now. That's one of the things I noticed about DDD as well, except the time-travel jibba-jabba and that the X-blade is made of twenty hearts instead of two it doesn't actually bring anything truly new to the table. It only confirms several things that were vaguely hinted at in several games and Ultimanias before that could be interpreted differently, of course in the process flushing several maybe even widely accepted fan interpretations down the toilet.
Of course that's another way to put it, but "the other side" of Sora would just place him back in the "just a part of Sora"-category which I despise and which he clearly doesn't display.
That he had to build his personality from scratch makes him way more unique, and certainly more of his own entity.
I bookmarked that one to read on a weekend, lol, I have way too few time online ;P.
I won't dispute that this was a valid interpretation at that time since we only had vague information back then.
We also held for a time the belief that the DS (Dark Soldier, later revealed to be Vanitas) would be the current day Xehanort found by Ansem the Wise who only remembered the name of his former Master, the old man Xehanort.
Fact is however that Nomura and the series' canon choose to not go by that interpretation canon-wise in both cases.
So far, nearly all of my predictions and interpretations regarding KH mysteries have been proven at least partly correct, but if facts should come up that put one of my interpretations down I won't hesitate to drop it in a heartbeat.
Yeah. And he was a tiiny bit like that for like, the first tutorial mission with him, but once he warmed up there was basically no change in him for the rest of the game. It felt like the writers went, well you guys already KNOW they become friends You really want to see them being friends dont you OK WE WILL JUST DO THAT~ /forsake everything
Like
I really don't see how the interactions they had in Days justifies the lengths Axel goes to for the rest of the series...
The funny thing? Most fans really wanted to see them being friends and, you know, how that came to be. Like i.e. them being paired together on missions and Axel tutoring him is not that bad of a starting point. With Axel being longer a patronizing, somewhat gruff tutor it would have been the perfect opportunity to show off how and why Roxas develops a bit more aggressive, bitchy attitude when i.e. he improvess vastly and Axel snarkily does not initially want to acknowledge it.
They butt heads often, snarking at each other during some real missions as well, which slowly lets Axel accept him since he's impressed by Roxas' defiance in standing up to him.
Put in some real tough situations were they are really forced to rely fully on each other, resulting in mutual respect for each other and eventually develops over camaraderie into full-blown close friendship.
Giving the development more time would definitely give their relationship a much better boost, but alas, it's a game not a book and of course to make room for that they would have needed to cut away some of Xion's screentime (how about having two bed-moping scenes less?)
When we talk about such stuff though, then Roxas' and Xion's friendship would have needed to be developed a bit more detailed as well, although this is one of the few things Days' writing manages to do remotely decent.
That said, what somewhat irked me with BBS despite my love for it is while we don't need to be shown clearly how the close, sibling-like friendship between Aqua, Terra and Ventus came to be, it would have done wonders if they included more close scenes/flashbacks between the three than just the tutorial and the two to three short scenes they actually included.
Partly agreed, Axel tends to call Roxas "partner" and as we see in DDD Roxas is still strongly present in Lea's mind and heart (It's almost like Riku's relationship is with Sora). Nomura even hinted that Lea actually being able to summon his own Keyblade may have something to do with Roxas, not to mention Lea's Keyblade has a strong Phoenix-like theme, the symbol of Rebirth.
The naive came naturally from his short actual lifespan, lol. As for the fluffy, they probably wanted to play up his cuteness-factor (and he can be cute if he wants to, *ggg*) while the saviour angel is mixed Xion-focus and Sora-sympthome.
Well, as your quote even just said, and also as AtW said at the end of DDD, hearts are formed by other people recognising you and loving you etc. (I dont remember his exact words... something like children love things and give them hearts etc). He also basically said, and Xemnas said too in DDD, with flower analogies that hearts bud and grow, they don't just pop into existence.
So I think, and this even was pretty much the case in the actual series, that hearts form inside Nobodies slowly, and they grow through contact with other beings and friendship and love and stuff. ("He made me feel like I had a heart"). So yes, Roxas' own sense of self is important, but his friendships and human contact would have been a much bigger influence on making his budding heart grow to a fully formed existence.
I also think that 'renouncing your sense of self', as Xemnas put it, was half a reference to how he tried to trick them into repressing any budding feelings by making them think they couldn't possibly be real in the first place, and half just a euphemism for whatever process they used to become Nobodies (stabbing with the evil MX blade, some kind of machine, idk)
That's one of the conditions, yep, Ansem the Wise also spoke of exposure to light, or simply experiencing the natural world (aka the physical world meaning the Realm of Light) as factors who shape the newborn heart.
Xemnas only mentioned his flower-bud comparison and that they can be nutured, but he never elaborates on how the nuturing functions.
Exactly, they grow and develop very slowly, if we are to believe Xemnas' words (which I would be wary as of now, since he's such a liar). But this makes Roxas' rapid growth even more astounding, which leads me to believe that Ven's heart, although subconsciously and without actual willing influence from Ven's side, helped to accellerate the growth of Roxas' heart.
In order to have a new heart grow into a full fledged one I do believe as well that all factors are needed to play into it. This also gives the Organisation's need to "stay unnoticed" another, more sinister meaning. By interacting with world inhabitants (and possibly the worlds themselves, as they also have hearts) the Org members could continue to "form" their heart-buds, which was not in Xemnas' and Xigbar's interest.
Roxas interacted several times with Genie and Tinkerbell during Days though, and more importantly with Phil in the Coliseum, who clearly acknowledges Roxas as a worthy person, probably giving his heart another growth-burst. ;P
Well, for the most time Xemnas tricks seemed to work, as apparently while several members turned out to be useless to become Borg...err Xehanort, they never suspected that they could give birth to a heart and nuture it themselves without needing the artificial KH. Even Yen Sid was fooled and while DiZ found something during his research, he chose to ignore it at first due to his hatred towards Nobodies.
In short, Xemnas and Xigbar practically trolled hard both the universe about the Nobodies and the Nobodies about themselves as well.
It would actually make him quite unique if he is the only one who is able to still dual wield (I don't care if rabid Sora fanboys whine, Sora is grabbing so many techniques already taking away other character's uniqueness).
Nomura could easily explain it by stating that Roxas' new heart was influenced by both Sora's and Ven's heart, accidentally giving him two wielding abilities.
I know right!! I mean... agghhh!! I mean, just, having the Org-related twists happen in the game where you are one of the Org and already geared up to sympathise with them would have had much better payoff, imo. And what if, perhaps, they kept all the 'seed' identities secret in DDD, just revealed that that was MX's plan, and then revealed them in Days at some point instead? That would ALSO have had better payoff, especially regarding Xigbar. Like, he has been acting like some weird uncle all along then the twist is, he was in on the plan to infect and use you all along ;__;
As you said, it wouldn't make as much sense in KH2 for Roxas to have know. But then again, if we are going so far as to rewrite Days and DDD, perhaps KH2 could have been different? Perhaps they could have hinted that Roxas' departure from the Org was because of some much bigger betrayal. And perhaps Roxas thought Axel was in on it, too. Perhaps Saix could have done something shady to make Roxas believe that...
But yes fight with Xemnas Terra/Ven stuff!! What if Roxas found that chamber where Xemnas was keeping Aqua's armour.. like why make that actually relevant...
Oh man it'd just be such a huge endeavor... and I am the great unfinisher lol.
But! I wanna get down stuff we'd want in alternate!Days for reference. I know we've talked about this exhaustively before but with DDD now shedding more light, it'd be nice to have everything in one post.
So, I think this is what a lot of us would have liked to have seen (people can feel free to argue against certain points):
- Roxas being more emotionally distant/aggressive (not zombie-ish) and gradually developing a relationship with Axel
- In regards to Roxas' development of emotion, this is my own personal wish, but I would have really liked to have seen that fleshed out a bit more. Show us the first times Roxas gets angry, happy, sad, jealous, etc, and note how he reacts/describes them. Like I think a lot of the Disney worlds could come into play here, with each one maybe giving him a new emotion? Then again that sounds a bit stilted, idk.
- Axel initially being the asshole he was in CoM and then unhardening his heart (lol).
- This is another one I'm not sure how people feel: Namine as the girl that influences Roxas to leave. Roxas and Kairi had a psychic connection in KH2, so I could really picture him having these moments with Namine throughout Days, or even seeing her in his dreams, as she tries to retrieve Sora's memories (and fails).
- Dual Wielding: Have it come much earlier (from what, I'm not sure, but when Roxas gets his second keyblade, I'd like to see him undergo a Dive to the Heart). I mean, the way Axel says, "Two?" in KH2 makes it sound like he's never seen Roxas dual wield before but at the same time, look at the graves in Proof of Existence- Oblivion and Oathkeeper are there, how did the Organization know lol.
- Ok random but on that note I really want the Proof of Existence finally being established as a graveyard of sorts, and Roxas goes there after hearing about the deaths of the CoM members hahaha.
- What about a Sora clone, do we want that or not? Thing is, I like the idea but the execution was horrible. I can see it working if the Sora clone was kept away from Roxas (which would have made more sense to begin with lol but would also mean that it would not steal the limelight and only appear at certain points) and was hooded at all times (ie no appearance shenanigans, just being illusive) with no personality/lines/etc. I like how the Replica Program made Repliku seem relevant/not completely random, and it also fits in really well with what we know from DDD about MX's plans. Additionally, this Sora clone could be symbolic of what the Organization wants Roxas to be: a complete tool with no sense of self.
- Obviously way more interaction with the minor characters of the Organization to flesh them out more.
- The Chamber of Waking actually being relevant to the plot lol.
- Xemnas being an active villain (actual conflict with Roxas), overt references to how much he's Terra/Xehanort, elaboration of MX's plans.
- Scenes of DiZ alone on the clocktower eating sea-salt ice cream.
There's more but I'm tired, you guys got anything?
Personally, I still like the theory that Roxas started off wielding Ven's Keyblade, gained the ability to dual-wield when Sora went to sleep (since Sora would no longer be actively wielding his Keyblade, making it available to Roxas), but didn't realize that ability until later. Would have made more sense than Xion's existence.
And I learn an awesome new word today!! Thank you!
I think, to be fair, this technique did work pretty well on a lot of people. Maaaany people seem to forgive the other flaws of Days simply because they were moved by Xion's story, and that's fair enough. Different people are affected by different stuff. But I am definitely in the same boat as you, the tragedy felt very forced to me and the more I realised that there was never going to be a proper plot in this game that didn't centre on her, the more I was turned off.
Sometimes less is more and distributing the spotlight more evenly between her and the other major characters would also have done better for the whole picture without the actual need to totally remove her character.
Perhaps! I think you're right, it's not the only way they could have done it, I'm just guessing at why they chose to: perhaps they weighed it up and thought it was too risky.
Damn, even Mickey could have had a bit more screentime at least once showing what the heck he was doing the whole time during that year Sora was sleeping
Yeah, quite a few members in this club would agree with you there! I personally see her character and the problems with the story as very linked. Radically changing the story would mean radically changing her role, and therefore her character. I think Days is just really terribly written and Xion is at the root of every bad decision lol
the non-C.O. Org-members had way enough screentime (except Xemnas, and Saix only in cutscenes) when on missions with Roxas to get a basic overview of their personalities. Like i.e. that beside gambling Luxord has quite some curiosity to explore things and laments being left out of the important stuff.
Nooo! I disagree! I think they should have had more relevance. I think even in KH2 it almost felt like they were stretching just to make 13 characters to fit a cool number, and especially in Days, not giving them better roles and backstories feels like a waste of including them at all. I do love them, but they feel like weird extras with no real reasons to be in the story other than boss battles in Kh2 and that's a bit sloppy. I think they could have done so much more with Demyx, for example, he was very much against the grain compared to the rest of the Nobodies. And both him and Luxord deserved to have backstories imo. Unless that stuff is going to be more relevant in later games? I really really hope so because I do love the concepts of them!! I just wish they had justification :C
About releasing schedules and stuff, I would wonder if playing Days again with the current level of knowledge (where Nomura finally decided not to be vague with every fact that got revealed and confirmed some outright) would result in a total different perspective of some things.
It might! We were talking about that in the club a few pages back, actually, about whether DDD made Xemnas' weirdness make more sense (I think we are still... undecided... haha)
BUT that would mean playing Days again which is like pulling teeth out with rusty pliers SO if anyone does it it would probably not be me 8D
Nomura himself also stated several times that he likes to make KH, so I think we can assume that at least he cares. And of course Yoko Shimomura. A big bunch of KH's influence is made simply with her music.
We as fans also do not know the whole picture and what is actually planned for the future.
Very very true! I think Nomura likes the series, but I think he cares more about the gameplay and trying out cool stuff than he does about the story, which is why it has gotten so weird and convoluted as of now. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, because cool gameplay stuff is important too, I am just a much more story-oriented person. And YES ahh I love Shimomura. She is such a beautiful person and I am so glad she is working on this series, it wouldn't have half the soul it does without her I am sure!
And yes! We don't know what's planned for the future. Buuuut, that doesn't mean we can't have problems with what is being presented to us now. I have said lots of times before that even if future games and different writers do have Xion being a good balanced relevant character, or give the things revealed in Days more relevance to the series overall, that won't change how Days made me feel and it won't change the problems (I believe) Days has as a narrative, if that makes sense...
So yeah I do understand the wait and see mentality, but I also think that a game needs to both fit into the big picture of the series AND stand on it's own two feet as an enjoyable game and at the time it was released, Days didn't satisfy either need for me.
But that's the point, at least KH2 (which I think some people take too seriously on some statements, also since both Days and Coded vaguely and now DDD clearly suggest the opposite) makes a point about that being fully real on their own and being able to exist concurrently is NOT possible, as Naminé's "You won't disappear" is clearly a flat out lie since Roxas does disappear.
First off, I think that line isn't intended to be interpreted like that. Something I've learned from translating so many novels and cutscenes and stuff is that in the KH series, they use euphemisms that means something like 'disappear' or 'be erased' or 'go out', like 'die' in the way fires die, which is the verb 消える and the noun 消滅, which means like... annihilation (was it 'termination' in Days sometmes?) to mean 'die'. (And I know 'there is no death in KH' but there is an equivalent to death and those words are the equivalents for it.) It is never really given the same translation every time in the English version, for various flow-related reasons, but it is pretty standard in the Japanese. So, I am pretty sure we are supposed to interpret her as basically saying "Roxas, you won't die." Which is... true... he didn't really die... but sleeping inside someone else isn't really being 'alive' either. So no, it's not a flat out lie, it's just not the whole truth.
And besides, it does seem that by the end of KH2 (especially FM+), Roxas has accepted, albeit sadly, that he has to become one with Sora. In that FM+ scene with Axel he says several things like "because he is me" and says 'he' will go visit HPO again (when really it is Sora who will do this). He also calls Sora his 'original form'. At least at that point to Roxas, Sora and him are the same, Sora is Roxas, Sora's memories are Roxas' lost memories, Sora is the lost identity Roxas was searching for before KH2. And even if Roxas came to obtain his own heart, Sora was his heart first! They are a very complicated duo and that's what I love about them! It wouldn't be so tragic if it weren't! That element of... inevitability is what really gets me. It's the same reason I tear up so much about Tidus at the end of FFX. Reality is what it is. Even if it's unfair...
And that's also why him getting a second chance is so beautiful ;A;/
Same with Sora getting to be the half facing out: It were DiZ, Naminé and Riku who choose to let it happen that way.
Unless you see it as: Sora needed to wake up because Sora, as a Keybearer, has an important role to play in the universe. Could Roxas have replaced Sora? Possibly. But he wouldn't have done what was best for the world. I think Roxas himself was a bit too selfish, too, when it came to his own goals. Roxas knows that, that's why he says "that's why it had to be you" after he says "this could have been the other way around"
So I think there is an element of Destiny in these games. There are elaborate chains of events that might seem engineered by a character but in the end of every major adventure light and darkness balance and you wonder if there really is, as Xemnas said, some sort of will of Kingdom Hearts that has plans for everyone. I'd like to believe there is! I think it's 100% up to interpretation though.
it makes me somehow smirk that such big parts of the fandom were just as fooled as the in-universe characters to believe that Nobodies remain without a heart
i dont really think as many people as you believe were fooled, lol. in the circles i was in, everyone thought that. as i said there are tonnes of fanfics about it lol. you know what though, it's strange what different people assume. i'm not sure why, but after Kh2 i assumed that growing your own new heart meant you never had to reunite with your other and you could be your own new nobody self forever--which was why the org wanted to build a kh for themselves rather than just planning to kill whatever heartless had their other's heart inside it. and then i assumed that by the end axel and roxas and namine at least had shaky little hearts of their own through some way, either the power of friendship or through their connections to sora or both lol. (this was before i knew about ven or anything lol this was just right after playing kh2)
and it looks like i was maaainly right, i just didn't guess the mx seed stuff lol. buuut i still dont know why i assumed what i assumed about getting your own heart meaning you could be your own person, because that was never said in the game, and in DDD Axel turned into Lea anyway. so maybe... he never got his own heart after all, anyway lol
But that's the thing, Axel didn't start out one way and then changed too much.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on Axel because this goes heavily into character interpretation territory.
Basically, I can personally clearly see a missing development arc between CoM and KH2, solidified during Kh2 and resolved by his death. I think it's one of those things where it depends on a) your expectations going into Days and b) how you interpreted Axel's character before Days. Some people did interpret him as a goofball from the start, and expected him to be that way and not change, some interpreted him much darker and thought he was derailed in KH2 and didn't expect anything from Days except fanservice. Those are the two extremes, I guess. (Well the real extreme is probably the Roxas-obsessed clingy "pedo" Axel but that was always definitely never grounded in canon. Or a joke. I'm... never sure... lol)
I personally saw him as someone who was very sharp, clever, surprisingly private, a good actor with a love for theatrics who knew how to use both those skills to his advantage, and someone who did buy into the 'no heart' dogma of the Organisation. I thought that he was probably interested in Sora and Roxas in the beginning for mostly self-preservation reasons, but then slowly, through friendship yadda yadda yadda learned the value of opening up to someone else, which led to the want to protect someone other than himself, which he still did basically selfishly (them being hurt meant him being hurt) and even perhaps questioning the no-heart propaganda, which slowly graduated towards the end of kh2 to him wanting what's best for someone even if it would hurt himself. He also learned an important lesson about playing things too safe and trying to be on too many sides. All those things, as I said, were resolved by him finally choosing one side that wasn't really in his personal best interests anyway, protecting someone he had come to care about, and sacrificing himself. It's like all his themes coming together...
Ahhh Axel ;A:/
In any case, if you understand where I am interpreting that from, then you can understand that we saw the start of that in CoM and the end of that in KH2 and yet there was no real middle. It makes me sad, because if there had been a middle, then he would be the best developed character after Riku imo.
Instead they choose to, as you say, play up the goofy nice caring parts so he never changed and never really learned anything except "keeping secrets from my friends (who i just magically am friends with) when I am working really hard behind the scenes trying to protect them from horrible things is a bad idea because they will find out and get mad and leave me and the horrible things will happen anyway, except this doesn't really have a resolution or go anywhere because it has nothing to do with what I then went and did in KH2"
Such fanart may go a bit overboard in artistic freedom, lol. But the imagery is realistic and correct.
It's by all natural purposes impossible to have "badass bitchy" kid Roxas from the start when he cannot even form a correct sentence and has no reasons to be bitchy about anything.
Again, I believe his situation could have worked like a coma patient who woke up with lots of memories missing. After that period of recovery, he would have a personality (just no memories of why he was who he was, because those were in the other side of his heart which was Sora at the time, until they fell back through when Namine started messing with things) and be able to speak etc. They could have set it up like that and no one would have been surprised.
I think the problems with his personality in the game go further, though: they couldn't be bothered to even give him a proper personality for Days, and to me it feels like deciding to revert him to toddler level is an excuse to get away with that. It comes down to lazy writing, like so much else.
After the small period of happiness and bliss during the early mid-game when shit starts to hit the fan Roxas had a reason to get "more bitchy" and should have been more proactive in general about things. It's ok being sad about things like when he thought that Axel perished in C.O. (which is also earlier and therefore fitting), but in the later parts of the game they missed to make slowly the transition to his more aggressive, moody mindset. He stayed the remotely happy (sometimes sulking and moping) kid when he should be outspoken and defiant to the things happening, because these are some of his core traits. While Roxas does cry and also sometimes curls up into fetal position (as seen in Kh2 FM when Axel gets to their last meeting inside their minds), he also balances that out by being generally aggressive and stubborn when things go awry. They showed that remotely with some of his outbursts to Saix and that one time when Axel chopped Xion, but these were only glimpses. From what we can take from KH2 it looks certainly the way that Roxas reacts to emotional stress and pain with anger first, and only in the second round goes for crying or curling into a ball if at all.
(I would actually disagree about the crying and curling up part though! He didn't even cry in that FM+ video; that was Axel!! Haha. He is resting his head on his arms in the beginning but that's because he is asleep. He's pretty calm for the rest of the scene! Even smiles! Definitely holds it together better at the end than Axel does! Haha)
A: Nah. Maybe this is falling asleep. Soon enough we won’t even be able to talk conciousness-to-consciousness like this.
R: I’m going back… back to my original form, aren’t I.
A: I’ve always wondered. Naminé said it, too. Roxas… you have a heart, don’t you? And, I wonder… do people like Naminé and me… really not have hearts?
R: I… I don’t know, either.
A: I guess you wouldn’t…
R: But I’ve started thinking, maybe the heart isn’t something you can see, but something you feel. If that’s true, then… Nah. I’ll leave it there.
A: Huh? Why right at the important part?
R: Sora will find the answer. He’s… me, after all.
A: I guess you’re right.
A: Doesn’t this take you back? Still got it memorised? When we first met, the day you got a new name, we watched the sunset from here just like this.
R: Yeah. This is my hometown. Hayner, Pence, Olette… I wonder how they’re doing.
A: You should go see them again. While you’re looking for that answer, I mean.
R: Yeah. Which means I gotta go soon. Sora’s waiting.
A: Ah. I guess you’re right. This ice cream’s so freakin salty…
R: See you later, Axel.
A: See you later, partner.
THEY TRANSLATED THIS SO WRONG IN DAYS I WAS SO MADDDD
Of course that's another way to put it, but "the other side" of Sora would just place him back in the "just a part of Sora"-category which I despise and which he clearly doesn't display.
That he had to build his personality from scratch makes him way more unique, and certainly more of his own entity.
NOPE I THINK ITS JUST MORE BORING THAT WAY LOL why can't it be both??
I like complicated tangled up stuff!
And being the other side of Sora just means Sora is the other side of Roxas. This is canon btw. They did start off as two halves of one whole. BUT yes, when they split, both of them did grow while apart too, and Roxas had things (friends, memories, a heart) that were entirely his own. That then makes what happened to him even MORE complicated and sad! It's a good thing to have both lol
(which is another reason why I dislike Xion being included--why did Roxas need to be in a trio that was just copying SRK? I liked it better when his life was very different and separate from Sora's. I also think that Xion existing really... makes you wonder what parts of Roxas are even real. His reactions to her are very very based in Sora's connections to Kairi, he couldn't not be her friend, he couldn't not want to protect her etc. The way he gets so twisted up about her and can't blame her for anything and thinks about her 24/7 and puts her above everything against all reason is just so... it feels a lot like how Sora got about Namine, except... that was outright stated to be manipulation. This was just Roxas' actual whole life. Playing Days I was like, was there anything individual to Roxas, in the end? Who is he even? :C)
I bookmarked that one to read on a weekend, lol, I have way too few time online ;P.
No... not really! It hasn't been explained where Roxas' personality came from, we are left to interpret that. Your interpretation that he was born as a fresh baby and learned everything on his own is definitely never stated outright by Nomura or the games. You could certainly make a case for it with some evidence, but there was also lots of memory overflow (he went into a coma very early on in his life when Namine started messing with Sora, remember? And had lots and lots of weird dreams about Sora, and was influenced by Sora's feelings when it came to Riku, and probably even Xion, as I said) and there was plenty of 'nobody/other' duality terminology and imagery used to link them in the games as well, so I wouldn't say that meta was even proved wrong. I think if I wanted to interpret the games that way I certainly could and nothing would outright contradict it, I might just have to make some adjustments according to the fact that Roxas did eventually grow his own heart as well as connect to Ven's, and all that other stuff about Xion etc
With Axel being longer a patronizing, somewhat gruff tutor it would have been the perfect opportunity to show off how and why Roxas develops a bit more aggressive, bitchy attitude when i.e. he improvess vastly and Axel snarkily does not initially want to acknowledge it.
They butt heads often, snarking at each other during some real missions as well, which slowly lets Axel accept him since he's impressed by Roxas' defiance in standing up to him.
Put in some real tough situations were they are really forced to rely fully on each other, resulting in mutual respect for each other and eventually develops over camaraderie into full-blown close friendship.
Giving the development more time would definitely give their relationship a much better boost, but alas, it's a game not a book and of course to make room for that they would have needed to cut away some of Xion's screentime (how about having two bed-moping scenes less?)
When we talk about such stuff though, then Roxas' and Xion's friendship would have needed to be developed a bit more detailed as well, although this is one of the few things Days' writing manages to do remotely decent.
I personally didn't think it was developed much at all. They had that Darkside thing at the start, but from then on it's no strings attached bff. Even though Xion keeps tonnes of secrets from Roxas and doesn't rely on him and runs away from the Organisation SEVERAL TIMES?? It doesn't change anything, he never asks her why she runs away or even digs to find out what's wrong with her, he just worries endlessly about her as she repeats the same patterns. And she doesn't help him anything (despite telling Riku that her friends need her) and worries him sick and it's like... why does he care this much? Why does she even care? Why do any of them care lol they don't talk about ANY of the super important life or death stuff going on in their lives, they just sit around eating ice cream
That said, what somewhat irked me with BBS despite my love for it is while we don't need to be shown clearly how the close, sibling-like friendship between Aqua, Terra and Ventus came to be, it would have done wonders if they included more close scenes/flashbacks between the three than just the tutorial and the two to three short scenes they actually included.
Actually I really agree. While BBS (and KH1 too when it comes to it lol) are set where we are meant to know that these people are already really close, it still could have been done better. There are lots of things I think could have been done better in BBS regarding the setup, actually. I think the LoD should have had more significance and more Keyblade culture stuff should have been important, and yes, TAV should have had more flashbacks and stuff. Hmm maybe the novels have this? I'm getting there... haha
Nomura even hinted that Lea actually being able to summon his own Keyblade may have something to do with Roxas, not to mention Lea's Keyblade has a strong Phoenix-like theme, the symbol of Rebirth.
The naive came naturally from his short actual lifespan, lol. As for the fluffy, they probably wanted to play up his cuteness-factor (and he can be cute if he wants to, *ggg*) while the saviour angel is mixed Xion-focus and Sora-sympthome.
Could be! Or could be... *drumroll*.... lazzzzyyyy wrrrriitinngggg!! /crowd cheers then realises and feels sad
(But yes... he can be really diddlying adorable haha ahhh 8D Yes I am a total Roxas fangirl. That is one of the biggest reasons why Days broke my heart. It diddlyed over my darling boy :C)
I didn't want to make an own thread for that yet, so here we go:
Ooh! I really like that. Only I would put Kairi on there somewhere! Him and Kairi had a pretty cute convo in KH2 :3 Anddd idk if orange is really a Roxas colour 8D BUT I KNOW WHY YOU DID IT cause of the sunset~
That's one of the conditions, yep, Ansem the Wise also spoke of exposure to light, or simply experiencing the natural world (aka the physical world meaning the Realm of Light) as factors who shape the newborn heart.
Xemnas only mentioned his flower-bud comparison and that they can be nutured, but he never elaborates on how the nuturing functions.
I think AtW did in Japanese, too. Since I had to translate it I remember the wording more clearly than I do for the English 8D Both of them used the same budding type words, only when Xemnas said it he made it sound creepy, AtW flipped his words and made it sound cute. I can't remember exactly what it was but I remember going awww at the parallel at the time I was translating all that TWTNW and Riku-ending stuff!
I think, though, that the connecting to other people factor is the most important factor. That's where AtW is leading with his speech, and it's the core element of why Sora is the one who can save everyone. So yeah he did mention those other things but the whole speech was emphasising the role we have connecting with others.
But this makes Roxas' rapid growth even more astounding, which leads me to believe that Ven's heart, although subconsciously and without actual willing influence from Ven's side, helped to accellerate the growth of Roxas' heart.
Or Sora's heart. You have to remember that Sora memories were going through him all through Days, even though most of them passed right on into Xion. He was having bad sleep from weird Sora dreams he couldn't remember properly after waking up etc through that entire block of the game when Xion was sapping his strength and then they were see-sawing etc
Plus, it could be that Roxas' heart is not fully grown yet. Perhaps that is why he, and Namine, could merge back into Sora and Kairi at all. Perhaps if they had truly been whole people at that point it wouldn't have been possible without freaky Terranort stabby shit going down lol. (Then again, Kairi somehow merged into Sora in KH1 without needing to stab herself...)
So perhaps what Sora has to do is complete them by believing in them! Idk! I'm waiting to see what it is :3
In short, Xemnas and Xigbar practically trolled hard both the universe about the Nobodies and the Nobodies about themselves as well.
It really made very little sense... I mean... if they were interacting with time travelling MX to do this plan, then they knew they were going to fail anyway... So why did they waste time on all the ones they already knew would fail... and why did they let Sora, Roxas and Xion hang around in Twilight Town playing happy families and obviously gaining budding hearts... was that to ensure the seven lights?? If so... why didn't they recruit more Org members if they were doing 13 darknesses AND some random lights?? If they knew that they were filling up some spaces with time travel doppelgangers then why did they bother wasting time with 13 people exactly?
Idk this might be one of the things that makes more sense with future games? I'll let the jury sit lol
Nomura could easily explain it by stating that Roxas' new heart was influenced by both Sora's and Ven's heart, accidentally giving him two wielding abilities.
Or, again lol, Sora's and his own. Roxas was born from Sora, and like I said, Sora's was Roxas' heart first, and I could see it as always being a big part of his identity, the one he'd been searching for so desperately. It was a pretty huge thing for him to come to terms with, and he did, that was his main plot in KH2 (especially shown in FM+ as I already said). In fact... Roxas and Namine are probably the only two people in the universe to technically HAVE two hearts! Even if one of them is joint shared lol (Maybe we are meant to think Axel/Lea also has two... some... how lol)
YES TO EVERYTHING re:nami, yes perhaps a sora clone would have worked especially for reasons
um
also what if the Sora clone still did look like Kairi? And that was where the missing Kairi memory had been hiding all along. No other shapeshifting just that. Also therefore all Roxas' interactions with Namine could have been like, not based on SoKai but their own little thing. And then perhaps when Roxas kills the Sora clone he absorbs the Kairi memory as like the last piece of the puzzle or something...
also
-Riku and Roxas having some sort of... plot
-Demyx and Luxord being awesome and getting backstories!!
YES TO EVERYTHING re:nami, yes perhaps a sora clone would have worked especially for reasons
um
also what if the Sora clone still did look like Kairi? And that was where the missing Kairi memory had been hiding all along. No other shapeshifting just that. Also therefore all Roxas' interactions with Namine could have been like, not based on SoKai but their own little thing. And then perhaps when Roxas kills the Sora clone he absorbs the Kairi memory as like the last piece of the puzzle or something...
also
Hmmmmm... I definitely wouldn't want any shapeshifting crap. It could work if it just looked like Kairi! Though I don't see why it couldn't have been a plain old Sora clone that looked like Sora but had memories of Kairi. I guess it's a bit more symbolic of the missing piece of the puzzle.
But at the same time I don't even know if I'd want the Sora clone to have any of Sora's actual memories (or at least making an issue out of it). Like, just have another Repliku type thing, no memory shenanigans, because Roxas himself already serves that purpose, and adding another person just unnecessarily complicates it a further step.
OH YES! That's what I forgot, Riku and Roxas. Way more Riku stuff. Including that first fight that was alluded to in KH2 but never actually happened in Days lol. Like I could work in what I suggested ages ago, where Riku and Roxas fight at Beast's Castle rather than Riku and Xion.
Lemme find itttt....
And also, obviously, we find out more of what Riku was up to other than... absolutely nothing. 8D
I'd love to flesh out the backstories of the Organization members that don't have one too (including their real names)! And other extra tidbits. Like, for instance, I really doubt that Castle Oblivion itself creates those cards, I think the whole idea behind room creation is that you place something of significant memory-related value up to a door (could be anything), and the room beyond is manipulated into a form based on those memories. So the Organization decided to operationalize it by using blank cards, and projecting copies of memories onto them. And this... was Luxord's idea! lol. Little stuff like that.
It could work if it just looked like Kairi! Though I don't see why it couldn't have been a plain old Sora clone that looked like Sora but had memories of Kairi.
My main issue is that I wouldn't be comfortable taking away one of the six girls in the entire series. lol
I mean I know that if we reduce her role down to basically a perfect robot fighter with no sense of self it hardly matters anyway, but to me, being a girl was the only only good thing Xion did for the series. And I think it would be cool symbolism. Like, she would be the anti-Kairi haha. We don't have a character like that at all, really, girl or boy.
Like I could work in what I suggested ages ago, where Riku and Roxas fight at Beast's Castle rather than Riku and Xion.
He could have been killing Heartless that were trying to get Sora's body or something. The Keyblade attracts Heartless, right? But while Sora's out for the count he would be very vulnerable... it would go with what Riku said to Xion in Days, something like "I'm making sure my best friend sleeps in peace." Then there could also be cute Riku and Nami bonding o/
I'd love to flesh out the backstories of the Organization members that don't have one too (including their real names)! And other extra tidbits. Like, for instance, I really doubt that Castle Oblivion itself creates those cards, I think the whole idea behind room creation is that you place something of significant memory-related value up to a door (could be anything), and the room beyond is manipulated into a form based on those memories. So the Organization decided to operationalize it by using blank cards, and projecting copies of memories onto them. And this... was Luxord's idea! lol. Little stuff like that.
My main issue is that I wouldn't be comfortable taking away one of the six girls in the entire series. lol
I mean I know that if we reduce her role down to basically a perfect robot fighter with no sense of self it hardly matters anyway, but to me, being a girl was the only only good thing Xion did for the series. And I think it would be cool symbolism. Like, she would be the anti-Kairi haha. We don't have a character like that at all, really, girl or boy.
I do like the idea of an anti-Kairi. hmmmmm
It's not that Xion's a female that bothers me, I just hate the memory-based appearance idea to begin with, it muddies things up.
I mean that's not to say that we couldn't have another female in Xion's place.
Like... liiiiike... well I mean, the original supposed purpose of the Replica program was to duplicate the power of the keyblade.
Maybe. MAYBE. OH. What if we had an AQUA clone? Like, something within her armor/keyblade was used as the basis for the clone, maybe? And then she could use Aqua's keyblade, obviously. That would additionally tie the Chamber of Repose into the plot... sort of, would need to work out the specifics.
I mean, that'd be a much more solid basis as opposed to Sora getting randomly memory sampled in KHFM (always bugged me that something in the international version ended up being pretty damn important). Man, this is bringing me back to the days when we were speculating Xion was Aqua's Nobody lol.
But, ah wait. Then it loses the symbolism of Sora/Kairi. poo. And it's a pretty significant departure.
That still does really interest me though because you could have some... pretty interesting symbolism between Xemnas, Aqua Clone, and Roxas (TAV). idk lol.
He could have been killing Heartless that were trying to get Sora's body or something. The Keyblade attracts Heartless, right? But while Sora's out for the count he would be very vulnerable... it would go with what Riku said to Xion in Days, something like "I'm making sure my best friend sleeps in peace." Then there could also be cute Riku and Nami bonding o/
Yes, and maybe his quest to find out if he can wield a new keyblade? Though it wouldn't really go anywhere lol.
Unless he KILLS THE AQUA CLONE AND STEALS HER KEYBLADE AND THEN GIVES IT TO KAIRI IN KH2 AS DESTINY'S EMBRACE.
haha.
Aggggh I feel so behind I really wanna get back into the groove LOL Something is going around cause everyone's getting sick and I caught it so I feel like crap...can't think of anything awesome to write X_X But all those alternate ideas for Days, they're so awesome, I just...it makes me feel bad that Nomura could SEE how KH II was basically setting up ROXAS' plot on a silver platter. I feel like he gave himself MORE work and stress trying to do something new and confusing with Xion when he could have just expanded on the awesome characters that were waiting in the sidelines.
But nope. He has to go and let Kanemaki run the show. I love her novels and all but I can't help but feel some kind of resentment towards her for the monstrosity that is Xion -_- Days was something that if it couldn't be done right, shouldn't have been done at all.
No, not even the fact that it wasn't done RIGHT, it was just so lazy and sloppy like goldpanner said...and...ugh.
So, I think this is what a lot of us would have liked to have seen (people can feel free to argue against certain points):
- Roxas being more emotionally distant/aggressive (not zombie-ish) and gradually developing a relationship with Axel
- In regards to Roxas' development of emotion, this is my own personal wish, but I would have really liked to have seen that fleshed out a bit more. Show us the first times Roxas gets angry, happy, sad, jealous, etc, and note how he reacts/describes them. Like I think a lot of the Disney worlds could come into play here, with each one maybe giving him a new emotion? Then again that sounds a bit stilted, idk.
- Axel initially being the asshole he was in CoM and then unhardening his heart (lol).
- This is another one I'm not sure how people feel: Namine as the girl that influences Roxas to leave. Roxas and Kairi had a psychic connection in KH2, so I could really picture him having these moments with Namine throughout Days, or even seeing her in his dreams, as she tries to retrieve Sora's memories (and fails).
- Dual Wielding: Have it come much earlier (from what, I'm not sure, but when Roxas gets his second keyblade, I'd like to see him undergo a Dive to the Heart). I mean, the way Axel says, "Two?" in KH2 makes it sound like he's never seen Roxas dual wield before but at the same time, look at the graves in Proof of Existence- Oblivion and Oathkeeper are there, how did the Organization know lol.
- Ok random but on that note I really want the Proof of Existence finally being established as a graveyard of sorts, and Roxas goes there after hearing about the deaths of the CoM members hahaha.
- What about a Sora clone, do we want that or not? Thing is, I like the idea but the execution was horrible. I can see it working if the Sora clone was kept away from Roxas (which would have made more sense to begin with lol but would also mean that it would not steal the limelight and only appear at certain points) and was hooded at all times (ie no appearance shenanigans, just being illusive) with no personality/lines/etc. I like how the Replica Program made Repliku seem relevant/not completely random, and it also fits in really well with what we know from DDD about MX's plans. Additionally, this Sora clone could be symbolic of what the Organization wants Roxas to be: a complete tool with no sense of self.
- Obviously way more interaction with the minor characters of the Organization to flesh them out more.
- The Chamber of Waking actually being relevant to the plot lol.
- Xemnas being an active villain (actual conflict with Roxas), overt references to how much he's Terra/Xehanort, elaboration of MX's plans.
- Scenes of DiZ alone on the clocktower eating sea-salt ice cream.
There's more but I'm tired, you guys got anything?
Well, except maybe the dual-wielding! I always liked the idea of that being the big reveal at the end of the game, in which Deep Dive takes place...that way Axel doesn't actually get to see him fight with them so it's a shock in KH II! And then Roxas suddenly gets all badass >
I especially agree on what you guys said about the development of Axel and Roxas' friendship, ESPECIALLY that. That was one of biggest ways Days took a giant hammer and crushed my excitement into a zillion pieces. The fact that KH II hinted at this deep friendship between the two of them, that Axel was willing to risk his LIFE to get back...was never really there in the first place. Friendships are much more effective when you see the characters slowly warm up to eachother, overcome obstacles together, learn to respect eachother and then eventually become friends. It doesn't really move the player when one moment Axel is all: "WTF I HAVE TO BABYSIT THIS KID" and then the next: "Hey, time for ice cream, cause now we're BFFs! "
It's like at first they were setting him up to be all annoyed with looking after Roxas, and then decided "Well, the players are already aware they're best friends, might as well move the story right along so Xion can hurry up and be introduced!"
...Yeah. Okay.
I would have LOVED the asshole Axel kind of rubbing off on Roxas, who in turn lashes back at him...maybe at one point they are working together on a mission and get frustrated because they disagree on what course of action to take, and go separate ways. THEN they decide to work together, and the respect for one another starts, and they tolerate eachother's company.
ONLY when they start to become friends does the ice cream scene start. And this way, since there was enough build up to it, players would actually appreciate the ice cream scene instead of thinking "Oh, thanks. I didn't just finish eight missions or anything and a giant boss to get ANOTHER clocktower scene".
While I LOVE bitchy/badass Roxas, I gotta admit I'm also a sucker for clueless adorable Roxas, so certain scenes of Days actually did make me go "Awww" when he was like that ^^; So, why not have a combination of both, like in KH II? I always saw him as being thoughtful to the point of spacey (not spacey-braindead like in Days). He has moments where he can be cute, but also stubborn and easily angered. Days...didn't do that at all, and he got angry for so many wrong reasons that it just got annoying. KH II Roxas actually had a good reason to be angry. So did Re:Coded Roxas. But...it just sucks for Days to have pooped on the personality of my favorite character. It even took away the joy of getting to play as Roxas for an ENTIRE GAME. I never thought something could actually make me NOT want to play a game starring Roxas and the Organization.
And then Xion came along and my eyes were opened to the bad writing the KH series could be capable of :frown:
OOO That would be so awesome for him to dual-wield those!! *_* Like, maybe if you play through Days entirely you get the option to play through the game again WITH dual-wielding!
He could have been killing Heartless that were trying to get Sora's body or something. The Keyblade attracts Heartless, right? But while Sora's out for the count he would be very vulnerable... it would go with what Riku said to Xion in Days, something like "I'm making sure my best friend sleeps in peace." Then there could also be cute Riku and Nami bonding o/
YES That would make so much more sense than Riku running around basically...doing nothing but run around. And since Namine has no weapon and is busy trying to repair Sora's memories, she might need that extra help...
can i also ask for a personality rewrite for demyx, can we upgrade him from 'lazy' to maaaaybe idk more 'pacifist'? ?
ANY kind of depth would be good! He's always seemed like a pacifist to me too in KH II as opposed to just lazy bum. I don't think Shiro Amano's ever covered Demyx's final fight with Sora, but I do love his interpretation of Demmy :3
Only good thing to come out of that portrayal of Demyx:
" bordering on creepy guy hanging with two completely innocent kids (even though I never saw Roxas in general as being all that innocent, but in Days he was innocent from the moment he was born until the VERY last minute when he did a 360. I guess before then he did lash out, but that came across more as whiny) and Riku being all passive.
Spoiler