Kingdom Hearts + religion and spirituality

[blowjob]

Hi, I have this thought in my head, but I can't seem to articulate it. Let's start first with:

What significance does Kingdom Hearts have with religion, spirituality, and maybe even Atheism?

Do the characters in the game believe in anything or anyone?

Or, are all the characters Atheists?

 

[Ruran]

I wouldn't say there's anything particularly religious, spirituality,etc about KH. It's not the kind of work that would touch on those things seriously or create for it's own canon. Nomura does like to use religious symbolism from time to time but it's more stylization that anything.

Whether or not the characters believe in anyone/anything I imagine would be something the fans concluded. Their beliefs have never been brought up and I don't think they will be.

 

[Ikkin]

Hi, I have this thought in my head, but I can't seem to articulate it. Let's start first with:

What significance does Kingdom Hearts have with religion, spirituality, and maybe even Atheism?

Do the characters in the game believe in anything or anyone?

Or, are all the characters Atheists?

The characters definitely believe in an afterlife, given the conversation between Riku and Repliku when the latter was dying ("What happens when someone who's not real dies? Where will my heart go?" "It'll go somewhere. Probably the same place my heart will go.
").

They also clearly believe in gods in the lower-case-g sense, considering the fact that they've met some (ie. Hades). There are a few very strong hints that Christianity at least exists throughout the World, given that Christmas appears to exist cross-world (Sora knows who Santa is, even though Santa lives in Christmas Town), Halloweentown is apparently still connected to an unseen Eastertown, and Notre Dame is still a cathedral.

In general, though, the KH universe seems to be generally deistic in feeling -- Kingdom Hearts/the Light fills in the deity role pretty well, but it's not really personified and most of the good guys don't really pay much attention to that aspect of it. Metaphysics are given much more attention than spirituality per se, but they're treated in a more scientific manner even as the characters talk of hearts, souls, and bodies as separate entities. On the other hand, Xehanort's talk of creating the Next World does seem somewhat religious.

 

[blowjob]

There are a few very strong hints that Christianity at least exists throughout the World, given that Christmas appears to exist cross-world (Sora knows who Santa is, even though Santa lives in Christmas Town) ........... and Notre Dame is still a cathedral.

In general, though, the KH universe seems to be generally deistic in feeling -- Kingdom Hearts/the Light fills in the deity role pretty well, but it's not really personified and most of the good guys don't really pay much attention to that aspect of it. Metaphysics are given much more attention than spirituality per se, but they're treated in a more scientific manner even as the characters talk of hearts, souls, and bodies as separate entities. On the other hand, Xehanort's talk of creating the Next World does seem somewhat religious.

Christmas and Santa are Pagan in origin.

According to Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, God doesn't exist. Remember that song Esmeralda sang when she sought refuge in the church? The disbelief was made subtly, though, but it was definitely a secular song.

KH/Light is just something the good guys can rely on, but it's not something to worship. It's the same as ethics in our world. We choose between good and bad, and the KH characters do the same. Deities are not moral compasses.

I like the whole futuristic science atmosphere in most areas of the games.
I don't remember what Xehanort (Master or young?) said that was "religious"? Someone help me.

 

[Ikkin]

Christmas and Santa are Pagan in origin.

.................................................................................................*head explodes*

Christmas and Santa Claus both appropriated certain pagan traditions, but they are most certainly not pagan in origin in the way that they're celebrated in the US (and hence the way they're celebrated in The Nightmare Before Christmas).

Just... look at the names, okay? Christmas (Christ Mass!). Santa (Saint!) Claus. You can't use those names without Christianity being there, because they rely heavily on Christian tradition to make any sense at all. You can have Yule and Odin or the Krampus, but you can't have Christmas and Santa Claus without Christianity. -_____-

...granted, replacing Santa with Odin-the-summon would be kind of hilarious. xD But that's not really the point.

According to Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, God doesn't exist. Remember that song Esmeralda sang when she sought refuge in the church? The disbelief was made subtly, though, but it was definitely a secular song.

...um?

That entire song is a prayer. Esmeralda's doubts come as much from the fact that she's a Gypsy and she's not "allowed" to pray than anything else ("I don't know if You would listen/To a gypsy's prayer/Yes, I know I'm just an outcast/I shouldn't speak to you"), but the point of that song is that, even with all her doubts and even as an outsider, she has a better perspective on praying than the people who take it for granted. There's a pretty extended portion of the song devoted to that, actually ("I ask for wealth/I ask for fame/I ask for glory to shine on my name/I ask for love I can possess/I ask for God and His angels to bless me" -> "I ask for nothing/I can get by/But I know so many/Less lucky than I"), whereas Esmeralda only questions whether God is there in one line out of the whole song.

Believe me, Disney never would have made that sort of implication in that movie. They already changed an incredible amount of stuff so as to not be offensive to Catholics (eg. Judge Claude Frollo); they wouldn't turn around and say "God doesn't exist" after making that kind of effort. =P

KH/Light is just something the good guys can rely on, but it's not something to worship. It's the same as ethics in our world. We choose between good and bad, and the KH characters do the same. Deities are not moral compasses.

Well, that's why I brought up Deism. Deism doesn't really worship any deity, but simply believes that one exists that created everything, then stepped aside to let the universe run on its own. It wouldn't seem out of place for Kingdom Hearts itself to fill in that position.

I don't remember what Xehanort (Master or young?) said that was "religious"? Someone help me.

From Xehanort's Report 4:

"And when Kingdom Hearts is complete, it is said the one who opens its door will bring about the creation of the Next World. Such a feat is above any human. Or, to put it a different way: whoever opens that door will be reborn as something far greater than human."

Creating the "Next World" feels like a religious concept to me -- or, at the very least, every example I can think of for such a thing comes from religion.

 

[Reagan Rayden]

Organization XIII felt like a Heart worshiping cult if anything. Saix spoke to Kingdom Hearts as if it was listening. Like a prayer.

"Kingdom Hearts....where...is my heart?"

Kingdom Hearts has been known to act on its' own to help Sora and the others like it did at the end of KH2. I would guess the "God" of the Kingdom Hearts universe would in fact be Kingdom Hearts. Or Walt Disney. whatever

 

[Nayru's Love]

Christmas and Santa Claus both appropriated certain pagan traditions, but they are most certainly not pagan in origin in the way that they're celebrated in the US (and hence the way they're celebrated in The Nightmare Before Christmas).

Just... look at the names, okay? Christmas (Christ Mass!). Santa (Saint!) Claus. You can't use those names without Christianity being there, because they rely heavily on Christian tradition to make any sense at all. You can have Yule and Odin or the Krampus, but you can't have Christmas and Santa Claus without Christianity. -_____-

Christmas seems to be portrayed more as a festive holiday than a religious holiday. That's why Christmas-themed episodes of various shows focus more on traditions such as presents and festivity instead of religion.

From Xehanort's Report 4:

"And when Kingdom Hearts is complete, it is said the one who opens its door will bring about the creation of the Next World. Such a feat is above any human. Or, to put it a different way: whoever opens that door will be reborn as something far greater than human."

Creating the "Next World" feels like a religious concept to me -- or, at the very least, every example I can think of for such a thing comes from religion.

Something can have a religious background, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it's religious in nature. In the KH Universe, I would say that they're plot devices at most.

 

[geist226]

Wow, thanks for reminding me about Master Xehanort's reference to the "Next World". I forgot how awesome that journal entry was.

I don't doubt that KH writers drew from religious overtones in that case, but it's not written with the implication of one deity that governs the universe (at least, I don't believe it is written that way). For MX to describe the reshaping of the worlds in such a way is a writing technique that uses familiarity to resonate with the audience for dramatic effect.

That whole idea is just the kind of thing that would push KH3 into the upper echelon of "seriously epic" tho.

 

[Love Machine]

Kingdom Hearts is a video game about a fictional story.

Shyeah, it's.......... religion-neutral.

 

[Gray Aria]

Maleficent does mention hell in BBS.

 

[LegendaryHeroLCB]

To be honest, Kingdom Hearts is the kind of game that tries its best to not make references to religions. But the fact of the matter is it all depends on your interpretation of its themes, motifs, etc. One could say that the constant Light vs. Dark thing could possibly reflect basic religious ideas where Light is considered to be good at pretty much all times and darkness being all the negative things in the world. But that can be dismissed from with the whole Reverse Rebirth thing. Christmas, being a pagan (now Christian) holiday can be an obvious reference but that's just there because of everything involving The Nightmare Before Christmas.

If someone wants to pay attention to angelic/demonic references, then they can use things like Riku's Way to Dawn, being something orginally dark/demonic with angelic/light tendencies. It's not generally noticed but you can also use references to shamanistic belief systems (were the elements of the world can be controlled by humans i.e. Fire, Thunder, etc.) but you'd have to try pretty hard. I noticed someone noted that Organization XIII could be considered a cult and can be supported with Abrahamic religions being that when certain things are accomplished they recieve wholeness. The Greek pantheon pops up from Hercules but only because it's Hercules.

Um...since I haven't played BBS I can't really say anything about it but from what I can guess, Unversed could be referred to spirits that occupy physical space from negative emotions (or in easier terms, violent ghosts/poltergeists but that's more a German folk tale thing if I remember right). Thankfully, KH is good atmaking people think about it (if they choose to focus on themes and other stuff) but not directly saying and/or implying real-world things like religion.

But back to the question, it seems that the characters in KH (excluding Disney and FF cameos) are just spiritual. I think that was a move made by Square-Enix to avoid people complaining about false religious notions, etc. They obviously understand that something happens to your body when you "die" (in this case death isn't really discussed but losing the heart through light/dark imbalance or destruction can be seen as a form of death since you lose your physical body minus the exception of Nobodies). The only possible way you could make any religious reference would be Kingdom Hearts and the Door to Darkness and Door to Light since it's known that Kingdom Hearts can be used for either of the two. Being outside of Kingdom Hearts could be some sort of purgatory or if you're not looking for the Christian way of thinking, limbo since you have to do certain things to open the door. The Door to Light can be considered as a type of heaven or positive place depending on how much light you have in your heart. In contrats, the Door to Darkness, since it hasn't been seen as anything good since KH1 can be your hell or a bad place you go to if your heart has darkness in it (which sort of makes darkness bad technically in KH but whatever).

Easiest way to find out: hit up Nomura's phone number.

 

[Cosmic+Amarna]

I mean yes it's a video game, not a religious application. There is a lot of ways to think about it- both yes and no are valid. Some may see something while others may see nothing at all. Me personally, I do believe in the existence of Spirit and embrace everyone and everything in our beautiful universe. In other words I don't care for a person's religion I can accept them regardless especially since all religions express many, many connections and similarities. In addition to that I study religion, spirituality, philosophy, various sciences, and other occult teachings (except for the dark shit I aint bout no negativity and i try to only create love and peace). I don't know if it's because I have studied these things and have that knowledge but I see many archtypes and other spiritual references throughout the entire KH series. I don't think that was their intention but I sometimes kind of do. the FF series has always been connected to myths, archtypes, and occultism so I think it's reasonable to think some of that would carry on into KH even if it's half Disney. It all depends on the individual if they can make connections or not, for me there is plenty of connections.

 

[gelandporn]

The characters definitely believe in an afterlife, given the conversation between Riku and Repliku when the latter was dying ("What happens when someone who's not real dies? Where will my heart go?" "It'll go somewhere. Probably the same place my heart will go.
").

They also clearly believe in gods in the lower-case-g sense, considering the fact that they've met some (ie. Hades). There are a few very strong hints that Christianity at least exists throughout the World, given that Christmas appears to exist cross-world (Sora knows who Santa is, even though Santa lives in Christmas Town), Halloweentown is apparently still connected to an unseen Eastertown, and Notre Dame is still a cathedral.

In general, though, the KH universe seems to be generally deistic in feeling -- Kingdom Hearts/the Light fills in the deity role pretty well, but it's not really personified and most of the good guys don't really pay much attention to that aspect of it. Metaphysics are given much more attention than spirituality per se, but they're treated in a more scientific manner even as the characters talk of hearts, souls, and bodies as separate entities. On the other hand, Xehanort's talk of creating the Next World does seem somewhat religious.

Exactly what I was thinking.

KH/Light is just something the good guys can rely on, but it's not something to worship.

Well, one of the things I find interesting is that Ansem SoD treated KH more from a philosophical point of view (having set out on his journey as a quest to gain knowledge), whereas Xemnas treated it more from a religious perspective.

Organization XIII has all the markings of a religious cult. And Xemnas most certainly worshiped Kingdom Hearts, I would argue he prayed to it as well.

 

[Ikkin]

I don't know if it's because I have studied these things and have that knowledge but I see many archtypes and other spiritual references throughout the entire KH series. I don't think that was their intention but I sometimes kind of do. the FF series has always been connected to myths, archtypes, and occultism so I think it's reasonable to think some of that would carry on into KH even if it's half Disney.

Eh, Nomura is definitely up to something symbolically. Remember, this is the man who named his FFVII movie "Advent Children" and resolved a major plot point by having Cloud pour water over Denzel's head in the middle of Aerith's church.

There are more than a few rather specific allusions in Kingdom Hearts as well. For example... "I came from you and Sora. I am you, just as I am Sora." For a second example:

KH's 'verse might not have much in the way of in-universe religion, but that doesn't really say anything about the symbolism that can be seen on a meta level.

 

[jmartin912]

.................................................................................................*head explodes*

Christmas and Santa Claus both appropriated certain pagan traditions, but they are most certainly not pagan in origin in the way that they're celebrated in the US (and hence the way they're celebrated in The Nightmare Before Christmas).

Just... look at the names, okay? Christmas (Christ Mass!). Santa (Saint!) Claus. You can't use those names without Christianity being there, because they rely heavily on Christian tradition to make any sense at all. You can have Yule and Odin or the Krampus, but you can't have Christmas and Santa Claus without Christianity. -_____-

...granted, replacing Santa with Odin-the-summon would be kind of hilarious. xD But that's not really the point.




...um?

That entire song is a prayer. Esmeralda's doubts come as much from the fact that she's a Gypsy and she's not "allowed" to pray than anything else ("I don't know if You would listen/To a gypsy's prayer/Yes, I know I'm just an outcast/I shouldn't speak to you"), but the point of that song is that, even with all her doubts and even as an outsider, she has a better perspective on praying than the people who take it for granted. There's a pretty extended portion of the song devoted to that, actually ("I ask for wealth/I ask for fame/I ask for glory to shine on my name/I ask for love I can possess/I ask for God and His angels to bless me" -> "I ask for nothing/I can get by/But I know so many/Less lucky than I"), whereas Esmeralda only questions whether God is there in one line out of the whole song.

Believe me, Disney never would have made that sort of implication in that movie. They already changed an incredible amount of stuff so as to not be offensive to Catholics (eg. Judge Claude Frollo); they wouldn't turn around and say "God doesn't exist" after making that kind of effort. =P




Well, that's why I brought up Deism. Deism doesn't really worship any deity, but simply believes that one exists that created everything, then stepped aside to let the universe run on its own. It wouldn't seem out of place for Kingdom Hearts itself to fill in that position.




From Xehanort's Report 4:

"And when Kingdom Hearts is complete, it is said the one who opens its door will bring about the creation of the Next World. Such a feat is above any human. Or, to put it a different way: whoever opens that door will be reborn as something far greater than human."

Creating the "Next World" feels like a religious concept to me -- or, at the very least, every example I can think of for such a thing comes from religion.

Okay, let me just say one thing. Christmas did originate COMPLETELY from Pagan beliefs, only it was called Yuletide. Not Christmas, that's the name that Christians gave it, hence the "Christ-Mass". Thanks, have a nice day.

 

[blowjob]

This thread is really cool :'D
I'm kinda excited to see what everyone else keeps talking about though... these sorts of threads are fascinating to me!

Aww, that's so sweet of you. What a nice young man. I try my best to think beyond rather than just look at the characters and say "zomg his hair is so hawt, so emo kawaii". No, just no. Most of these characters, including the throwaway Organization 13 members, are deeper than what most people can see.

I like to think that Master Xehanort is an aggressive Atheist.
I also don't believe Xemnas' love for KH moon is genuine. He just wants its powers as opposed to Saix's Muhammad's Islam's Holy Moon. In fact, I think Xemnas may be an Atheist, as well.

Saix:You dare insult Allah's KH moon?! DEATH TO INFIDELS!

 

[Wehrmacht]

Most of these characters, including the throwaway Organization 13 members, are deeper than what most people can see.

everything else

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Just coming in to add, I think KH is also based on Buddhism or Hinduism. Mostly Buddhism. Then I could argue some Taoist beliefs, but I don't have a copy of the Tao Te Ching next to me and I'm way too lazy to find it.

Oh, that's a fundamental aspect of Taoism. Let things be what they are. It is neither what you want it to be or what it shows itself to be. Meaning KH might be based on Christianity, but it isn't JUST Christianity and isn't just Buddhism as I believe. It is your truth to find.

 

[Cosmic+Amarna]

Yes totally. It's not exclusive to any one set of views but allows itself to unfold to the witness of the story, etc. individually. Although it does certainly reflect or use symbolic and philosophical concepts, it is not exclusive to just one set of "religious views' but a wide array of ideas and examples can be applied.

and that's a main reason why this game may be so good is because people who do like the concept/story can personally, for themselves interpret what they're seeing and experiencing. It involves the viewer and makes them think and question and put shit together to understand what is happening and where or what big picture or idea it is getting at, which thinking like that is good

 

[Ikkin]

Okay, let me just say one thing. Christmas did originate COMPLETELY from Pagan beliefs, only it was called Yuletide. Not Christmas, that's the name that Christians gave it, hence the "Christ-Mass". Thanks, have a nice day.

Depends on how you define "completely." =P Christmas in its current form is built on centuries and centuries of tradition, some dating back to repurposed pagan traditions, and some having come into existence afterwards. It would certainly be out of place for an exact copy of our current-day Christmas traditions to exist in a world where Christianity never existed, even if the pagan belief systems went unchanged.