{%}|<~Club for Clubbing Xion with a Club Club~>|{%}

[Valon]

phew what a read, you guys are making this a chore you know that? XD but i love it! so many what-if, good ideas for such a lackluster poorly written title of a game. a KINGDOM HEARTS GAME. a kh game where the only thing that mattered was the melee attack button, no one cared about magic, and it involved no strategy!

 

[Organization_42]

...um KHI, why are you submitting my post, when I haven't even started typing yet?!

Aggggh I feel so behind I really wanna get back into the groove LOL

LOL, that is exactly how I feel right now! But I have been lurking and reading these posts when I have time and what else can I say except that Grass and Goldpanner have awesome ideas and WHY COULDN'T THIS BE DAYS???

Something is going around cause everyone's getting sick and I caught it so I feel like crap...can't think of anything awesome to write X_X

Awww, I hope you feel better soon!

I really loved:

"You ever get the urge to just do something stupid... and AWESOME? Wait, wait... I'm getting an idea... Nope, it's gone."

Demyx you XD

That is my favorite quote, not just from Demyx, but from every video game I've ever played!!! Except for some of Sora's lines from DDD, like: "You treat people's hearts like they're bottles on a shelf, but they're not!

Also, I have a crazy idea, but I'm not sure if you guys would want to do it...

We've all talked about what we would've like to have seen in Days and Grass especially has had some pretty amazing ideas...what if we ALL collaborated on an alternate Days fanfic? Like, we'd all come up with an outline of the plot, and everyone would pick a chapter to write, and then when each member finished, we could all beta it in the club and then maybe put it in the KHI Fanfiction section? Like a fun club project? We could include stuff like Grass' Riku/Roxas fight and WhitterTwitter's ideas for how Roxas would bond with the other members. And that way we wouldn't have to worry about busy schedules because we'd only have to write a few chapters each, but we'd still be collaborating together?

 

[Goldpanner]

Also, I have a crazy idea, but I'm not sure if you guys would want to do it...

We've all talked about what we would've like to have seen in Days and Grass especially has had some pretty amazing ideas...what if we ALL collaborated on an alternate Days fanfic? Like, we'd all come up with an outline of the plot, and everyone would pick a chapter to write, and then when each member finished, we could all beta it in the club and then maybe put it in the KHI Fanfiction section? Like a fun club project? We could include stuff like Grass' Riku/Roxas fight and WhitterTwitter's ideas for how Roxas would bond with the other members. And that way we wouldn't have to worry about busy schedules because we'd only have to write a few chapters each, but we'd still be collaborating together?

I have been so busy with school and life (finish uni in a few weeks!!) and I'm so sorry I haven't been able to get to you!! But yes, I actually think that would be a pretty cool idea. I would really love to see it come to life, and I would love to have some group collaboration with all our input

The only issue is time for me. Agh...

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Finally found time to answer this big essay.
Where's my damn time? *ggg*

@Sephiroth0812 I'm not sure, but as long as the 'spoilers' subforum exists I think it's safer to keep them spoilers :3

Of course I grasp the logic of that, although I do wonder just how long the spoiler ban is planned to be held up. Three months after release most people should by now have at least once finished the story.

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And I learn an awesome new word today!! Thank you!

I think, to be fair, this technique did work pretty well on a lot of people. Maaaany people seem to forgive the other flaws of Days simply because they were moved by Xion's story, and that's fair enough. Different people are affected by different stuff. But I am definitely in the same boat as you, the tragedy felt very forced to me and the more I realised that there was never going to be a proper plot in this game that didn't centre on her, the more I was turned off.

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Lol, that's what my dictionary spilled out when I was searching for the term we have in German to say that you get fed something that might be reasonably good but in too much quantity in too short time.
Yeah, it certainly comes over that way, especially since the Xion-haters and Xion-fans seem to be almost equal in numbers (and many from both sides equally vicious about their cause) and it is one of the most prominent apples of discord around the fandom besides the Kairi-bashing.
I would also lie if I said that Xion's story didn't move me, but due to it being overabundant everywhere and pushed to the front every second scene I am also honest when I say that I was emotionally moved way more by the fates of Roxas, Terra, Ventus and Aqua than I was by Xion's.

Perhaps! I think you're right, it's not the only way they could have done it, I'm just guessing at why they chose to: perhaps they weighed it up and thought it was too risky.

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Possible. When a new character is introduced you need to give him/her some more attention to establish him/her firmly in the environment of the series in question and give the players/readers/viewers some overview and point to connect with that character, which was done better in KH2 with Roxas (although even there not perfectly, as he practically is completely forgotten after the Prologue and only comes up near the end again as a projection from Sora's heart).
But if that new character completely dominates the whole plot instead of adding to it while being developed, there is something wrong.
Xion is like the embodiment of this extreme of the spectrum while Vanitas in BBS is the opposite. He had too few focus for a major character (a villain on top) while Xion had too much.
Going by that, without having any ill will towards Kanemaki, I suspect there was at least a slight case of creator's pet at work when the script of Days was made.
Why Nomura went along with it is another can of worms, though.
The Days Manga on the other hand is, despite being non-canon, a refreshing change since there are several chapters without Xion which do not mess up anything. (Like Roxas' adventure with Luxord in Wonderland).

RIGHT
WHAT WAS HE DOING
well what was Riku even really doing aside from that time he was with Xion

see that was Mickey's problem, he never had anything to do with Xion, which is why he only had like 5 seconds of screen time haha

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I've no idea, and that's what sometimes really irks me, but not only with KH but in general. Writers and directors seem often totally incapable of shifting focus for a reasonable time. Whenever in a series, regardless if anime, manga, tv or game, a group of main characters splits up, you follow in 90% of cases always only the protagonist despite the other characters doing probably some way more interesting things.
Now I would not require anybody to switch the protagonist status, but to show what the other important guys are up to more than just five minutes (or half a page in a written work) should not that much of a Problem I'd say.
From what we see in BBS FM Secret Ending my first assumption would be that Riku was mostly doing recon for DiZ's faction, keeping track of what the Organisation is up to and also continuously stalking Roxas and Xion.
I think it isn't too far off the mark to assume that Naminé at first tried to reconstruct Sora's memories in several ways without actually having to resort to end Roxas' existence as she clearly was not content with that, and the way she said it to Riku that this would be "unfortunately the only solution" in that one scene in Days implies that she had tried other possibilities before, which took of course time.
*facepalms again at Days' script* Poor Mickey, but for real now, Mickey and Riku left C.O. after CoM together. What caused them to split up again?
Was he searching for Aqua the whole time? Looking for Ven's heart? Trying to locate the world of the Organisation? Mickey's actions are really a "blank period" for the whole time of Days, as in KH2 were we are eventually told that he was searching for Ansem the Wise while during KH1 he was looking for the Kingdom Key D.

Yeah, quite a few members in this club would agree with you there! I personally see her character and the problems with the story as very linked. Radically changing the story would mean radically changing her role, and therefore her character. I think Days is just really terribly written and Xion is at the root of every bad decision lol

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I knew I wouldn't be the only one, lolz.
I do not even think that the story itself needs to be changed radically. There are just some things that need to be fixed along like shifting the focus around. Xion's predicament and problems can remain there and also be important, but they should not totally outweigh all the other important plot points. Like Xemnas' plans, the chamber of Repose, his obsession with finding the chamber of Waking (without actually revealing what's inside, that we get only with BBS), Roxas' own problems and have him be more proactive, some slight infos about Mickey, more Naminé, DiZ and Riku-involvement. This could all be included in the current plotline without actually having to change much of Xion's actual nature, if they would only have distributed the priority more evenly.

Nooo! I disagree! I think they should have had more relevance. I think even in KH2 it almost felt like they were stretching just to make 13 characters to fit a cool number, and especially in Days, not giving them better roles and backstories feels like a waste of including them at all. I do love them, but they feel like weird extras with no real reasons to be in the story other than boss battles in Kh2 and that's a bit sloppy. I think they could have done so much more with Demyx, for example, he was very much against the grain compared to the rest of the Nobodies. And both him and Luxord deserved to have backstories imo. Unless that stuff is going to be more relevant in later games? I really really hope so because I do love the concepts of them!! I just wish they had justification :C

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See, and that's where our opinions diverge greatly because I can be completely fine with characters who have only secondary roles being developed less.
It's pretty obvious that among the Organisation the major characters are Xemnas, Xigbar, Saix, Axel, Roxas and Xion. The rest are secondary characters and therefore do not get that much attention. If I look at Xaldin for example I think for a secondary character they fleshed him out pretty good simply by having him tag along on missions with Roxas, where we learn quite a bit about how Xaldin "ticks" so to say, the same practically goes for Luxord, Demyx and even Xigbar. Vexen, Zexion, Lexaeus, Larxene and Marluxia get most of their development already in CoM.
What a "better" role and backstory is is also greatly up to interpretation I would say, as their roles were made pretty clear and complemented the stuff we saw in KH2. When I finally played Days in the last few months (thank you 3DS!) I got the confirmation on why Demyx rubbed me totally the wrong way in KH2 (besides Pete he's the only KH character I genuinely dislike). Like wut? He leaves Roxas to deal with the enemy alone because he could start sweating? Way to go you lazy, egoistic numbskull, get your ass up and do something useful!
The only thing he cares about is playing his stupid sitar, and even his recon missions he tries to load onto others to finish.
From what I saw, the main difference between him and the rest of the Org was that he was simply disinterested, only caring about having fun and slouching around. Abandoning your teammates, pussyfooting to duck out of your assigned task or just lounging around while others work their asses up shows just the same uncaring for fellow living beings, only from a different side. Like that annoying roommate or schoolmate who always slacks off and then complains because he/she gets scolded.
As for Luxord, his characterization reminded me somewhat of the central character of this film Maverick - Television Tropes & Idioms , only on the villains side with less morally acceptable intentions.
That they're only there for filling spots isn't even that farfetched, at least for numbers IX to XII, that may be the justification.
For example if you look at the Daltons from Lucky Luke, only Joe and Averell are really fleshed out characters, while William and Jack are only there to fill spots to make them a team of four.
Besides, I remember in an interview from July 2011 even Nomura saying that he does not consider most of the Org XIII's past that important:

-Well, let's move on to the topic of mysteries people are interested in. There is a lot of interest about Organization XIII's past.Nomura: Most of it isn't related to the main story of the series, so I haven't paid too much attention to it. (Wry laughter)

If I interpret that correctly Nomura didn't even give it much thought yet because it isn't related to the main story. The members that are related to the main story have gotten their bits and that seems to be all that there's about it.
Even more so, he already said something among those lines in 2010:

Q. Roxas is the main character of this game, so we will get to see his story, but will we get to see any back story on other Organization XIII members, like how they became nobodies or just how they were found by the Organization?
Nomura: I doubt we will look into any character's past with the same detail as we have with Roxas, but we may give a few glimpses into the past in other titles. We actually have a few scenes like that in Birth by Sleep.

And to be frank, I think with the more important Organisation characters they actually did a bit more than what could be expected with characters who aren't even main characters. Roxas, Xemnas, Axel, Xigbar, Saix and later Xion were always the only major characters out of the Organisation, with only the first four having actual importance over several games.

It might! We were talking about that in the club a few pages back, actually, about whether DDD made Xemnas' weirdness make more sense (I think we are still... undecided... haha)

BUT that would mean playing Days again which is like pulling teeth out with rusty pliers SO if anyone does it it would probably not be me 8D

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Some of his rambling stuff might indeed have a double meaning now considering the revelations of DDD. The same might hold for Xigbar and Saix.
Didn't Nomura also indicate that in the newest interview about the 1.5 ReMix, about foreshadowing lines in all older titles?
Nah, let's hope we get (and with "we", I mean Europe and Australia too!) the HD 1.5 Remix in the west, then we don't have to do tedious missions like chasing Emerald Serenades again but can watch cutscenes. ;P

Very very true! I think Nomura likes the series, but I think he cares more about the gameplay and trying out cool stuff than he does about the story, which is why it has gotten so weird and convoluted as of now. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, because cool gameplay stuff is important too, I am just a much more story-oriented person. And YES ahh I love Shimomura. She is such a beautiful person and I am so glad she is working on this series, it wouldn't have half the soul it does without her I am sure!

And yes! We don't know what's planned for the future. Buuuut, that doesn't mean we can't have problems with what is being presented to us now. I have said lots of times before that even if future games and different writers do have Xion being a good balanced relevant character, or give the things revealed in Days more relevance to the series overall, that won't change how Days made me feel and it won't change the problems (I believe) Days has as a narrative, if that makes sense...

So yeah I do understand the wait and see mentality, but I also think that a game needs to both fit into the big picture of the series AND stand on it's own two feet as an enjoyable game and at the time it was released, Days didn't satisfy either need for me.

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I am also more into story than gameplay, though I admit I would like to never see the tedious System KH1 and KH2 used again since we got the Command Deck. MP-Bar + useless magic + too much button mashing = yuck!
You either can whack everything away by mashing X (and perform whatever finisher Sora has equipped) or (additionally in KH2) blink everything to death with Reflectga.
I remember Nomura explaining that only he himself knows the whole story and every mystery and where it leads. So I wonder if he's really that uncaring about the story or if the script writers just fail to present his ideas correctly (and understandably) or maybe Nomura fails to explain to the script writers what it is exactly what he wants, or a bit of both.
Idk though if it can be also just that we western players are too dumb to grasp the finer connections, does the japanese fanbase also complain that much about the story as western audiences do?
Exactly, much of the mood would not come over as intense as if it weren't for Shimomura's music. I'm completely honest when I say that I almost always melt away innerly when I get to hear Ven's theme song or get goosebumps at Fate of the Unknown.
The music seems also to be the only field of the Kingdom Hearts series where the fandom does NOT jump at each others throats, lol.
Agreed though, I loved reading the comments she made for each song in the 10th Anniversary soundtrack. I would really pay to get that one, but I don't know if it is even available outside Japan.
Personal feelings on some things are always a huge factor, indeed, although in my book that shouldn't affect the view on the series as a whole or actual denial of some parts of the official canon just because you don't like it. It's one thing to interpret some elements differently (as we two do as well), but outright blending out some stuff that's actually there, nope.
Right, yet one thing I always tend to point out is that some things people get so fed up over may be not intended to make sense yet.
If we are at the end and it still makes no sense, ok, then I am in the same boat with everyone else, but if a decent explanation is delivered later I can live with that.
It's also intriguing to see that quite some people in the fandom apparently started out with Days, and I can imagine your initial outlook on the entire series being very different if you started with it, also in regards to personal attachment to several characters.
So on that point I'd think if Days is enjoyable or not depends highly upon each players individual background both to the series as a whole and to the gameplay, as while it pales to other KH titles, solely in terms of the Nintendo DS game library it was one of the best games out there.

First off, I think that line isn't intended to be interpreted like that. Something I've learned from translating so many novels and cutscenes and stuff is that in the KH series, they use euphemisms that means something like 'disappear' or 'be erased' or 'go out', like 'die' in the way fires die, which is the verb 消える and the noun 消滅, which means like... annihilation (was it 'termination' in Days sometmes?) to mean 'die'. (And I know 'there is no death in KH' but there is an equivalent to death and those words are the equivalents for it.) It is never really given the same translation every time in the English version, for various flow-related reasons, but it is pretty standard in the Japanese. So, I am pretty sure we are supposed to interpret her as basically saying "Roxas, you won't die." Which is... true... he didn't really die... but sleeping inside someone else isn't really being 'alive' either. So no, it's not a flat out lie, it's just not the whole truth.

And besides, it does seem that by the end of KH2 (especially FM+), Roxas has accepted, albeit sadly, that he has to become one with Sora. In that FM+ scene with Axel he says several things like "because he is me" and says 'he' will go visit HPO again (when really it is Sora who will do this). He also calls Sora his 'original form'. At least at that point to Roxas, Sora and him are the same, Sora is Roxas, Sora's memories are Roxas' lost memories, Sora is the lost identity Roxas was searching for before KH2. And even if Roxas came to obtain his own heart, Sora was his heart first! They are a very complicated duo and that's what I love about them! It wouldn't be so tragic if it weren't! That element of... inevitability is what really gets me. It's the same reason I tear up so much about Tidus at the end of FFX. Reality is what it is. Even if it's unfair...

And that's also why him getting a second chance is so beautiful ;A;/

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Well, I can only interpret what I get from the English Translation (or the German one, for that matter) since I don't know japanese. And with those it really comes over as a simple lie, possibly used to sweet-talk the inevitable, which is also why DiZ tries so stubbornly to shut her up.
The phrase "no death" in KH only pertains to the realization that there is no total cessation of existence, meaning that something of an entity, be it the heart, sleeping consciousness or memories (which were confirmed to be immortal already in CoM) always remain in some form.
Of course the outcome in the end can be interpreted differently as well, but as you say, being forced to sleep inside someone else, having no way to act and interact with anything or anyone isn't being "alive" (or to speak with KH euphemisms: existing) at all. In essence it is pretty much the same as death if not a fate worse than it. Axel even points it out in the very scene you posted down there, soon not even Roxas' consciousness would be able to act anymore, but be buried inside Sora.
That's also why Sora can only interact with him inside a dream in DDD. Seen from that point, despite it being used to throw Sora off and him really having no ill intentions, Young Xehanort's statement about Sora's heart being a prison isn't 100% false.
That also brings me back to Nomura's statement about even Aqua and Ansem the Wise being "born from sleep" because they disappeared from the world. In this light, it seems that existing in the Realm of Light (and the Realm Between) is the only "state" of a being which counts as existing. So being in someone else's heart or the Realm of Darkness would count as the being not existing and therefore the analogy to "being dead" in the KH Universe.
Going further by that notion, it would mean that Riku in CoM when he reached Castle Oblivion was also "born from sleep" and so was Mickey.
Sora and Riku in the end of KH2 on the other hand wouldn't count because they were on the shore of the Realm Between looking at the ocean separating it from the RoD.
Of course he accepted it in the end, I do not remember anyone disputing that. He had no other choice anyways. Even if he had intended to rebel DiZ and Naminé made sure he wouldn't by leaving him cornered. Why was it that after he had just regained all his memories from Naminé's brainwashing he was reasonably pissed and shouted out that his heart belongs to him, but as soon as Sora's pod opened he lost any will to fight for his own existence? Because he realized that no matter how much he'd struggle he couldn't win.
The only glimpse we ever get of him regaining any form of awareness inside Sora was in the beginning when Sora said goodbye to Hayner & co after that he was forced into sleep without having any means to influence things until Axel's death finally was too much and his rage threw him awake.
After their battle though, he did realize the nature of Sora's heart, and that's also what triggered him finally accepting the whole deal. Yet that still does not mean in any way that he's happy with how things turned out, as we can clearly see in the future of the series.
Unlike Naminé, who apparently even had a "desire" to disappear for some odd reason (way to have a will to live, girl), Roxas always had a very strong desire to be his own person. The reason he sought out Sora was because he wanted answers about his origins and past, not to become the past by fusing with Sora.
It's more that Roxas was born from Sora's heart as in it being the place of his origin, that does not make Sora's heart his because Sora always kept its contents even as a Heartless. That's the sole reason he even came to develop into something independent from Sora.
The "inevitability" was only there because of Naminé diddlying around with Sora's memories, so if one really wants to blame someone for Roxas' fate in the end the right addressee would be Marluxia. ;P

Agreed, the provided second chance is also what gets me excited for the future of the series, lol, also in regards to Naminé.
A little bit of me is even hoping a bit for a small scene where the reborn Roxas meets Ansem the Wise and gets to know (preferably from Riku, since they also had not that great of a standing) what role Ansem played in his second chance and that this is his way of saying "sorry" for the crap he did without just using the word.

Unless you see it as: Sora needed to wake up because Sora, as a Keybearer, has an important role to play in the universe. Could Roxas have replaced Sora? Possibly. But he wouldn't have done what was best for the world. I think Roxas himself was a bit too selfish, too, when it came to his own goals. Roxas knows that, that's why he says "that's why it had to be you" after he says "this could have been the other way around"

So I think there is an element of Destiny in these games. There are elaborate chains of events that might seem engineered by a character but in the end of every major adventure light and darkness balance and you wonder if there really is, as Xemnas said, some sort of will of Kingdom Hearts that has plans for everyone. I'd like to believe there is! I think it's 100% up to interpretation though.

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Granted, but then there could also be opened the other can of worms: Why has it to be exactly Sora? Mickey and Riku are Keyblade Wielders too, and stopping the Organisation could have also be done by them. The definition of "future" is that anything can happen because it's always in motion.
In Roxas' case he could surely not have replaced Sora since he never had the experiences Sora had and was, so to say, way too "green behind the ears" and more importantly, while he (and probably Axel) could have lived, unlike Sora he would not be able to save all the others who are suffering.
From where I look out, Roxas had every right to be selfish though. Why should he give a damn about what's best for the world or their inhabitants considering how they treat him? Sora himself in Dream Drop Distance is so far the only one who says that Roxas deserves to exist for himself (Axel may have thought that, but he never actually spoke it out loud), the others were only using him as a tool for their own goals, both the Organisation and DiZ, Riku and Naminé. From a solely ethical point of view disregarding end goals, there is no difference between how the Organisation and DiZ's faction treated him.
Their interaction in DDD I did interpret almost more as a continuation from the situation after their battle after KH2, where Roxas realized just what kind of guy Sora really is, just as Ansem the Wise realized it too. His whole "you're me and can feel what I felt"-statement was a bait he threw seeing to get his hopes in Sora confirmed, which they are when he got those words from Sora he had hoped for deeply inside, but not completely believed in.
That's when he repeats the "it has to be you" with even more emphasis, pleasantly surprised and with one of his rare smiles.
Even more so, in Coded Naminé explained that in order for the suffering people to be saved their memories have to be "called to the surface", a prerequisite Roxas fulfilled by himself when showing Sora his memories.
Too bad though that was what Xehanort speculated on to weaken Sora's heart further...
...wait, something just hit me...what if Xehanort didn't speculate on this but also planned that as well?
In Days, Xemnas says something about that both Roxas and Xion play out their roles as "destinied", or should it rather mean: "planned" by Xemnas and Xehanort?
Ventus' pain may be vast, but I could imagine that Sora's heart would be strong enough to handle the pain of Ventus alone. By engineering Xion's and Roxas' cruel fates, Xehanort would ensure there is more pain buried in Sora's heart that can help to push it into the darkness. The plan of using Sora and the time-travel stuff may have been a backup plan, but by the end of Days Xemnas may have seen that the original plan wouldn't work out and chose to go with the backup instead.
The only instance I remember anyone speaking of Kingdom Hearts itself having a will of its own was from Xigbar, where he muses over that if Kingdom Hearts has an own will it is surely rejecting Xehanort.
An element of Destiny therefore sounds more likely than "everything is predetermined", as the latter would make the notion of humans having free will irrelevant and superficial because they cannot change anything anyways with "Destiny" always around. And the power of "free will" and determination has been shown to also have a big influence in the series.
(Why do I hear "Fighting Fate" from FF XIII when writing this, lol).
On a side note, wth is the difference between "Fate" and "Destiny"?
Nonetheless, I agree with the notion of it being up to interpretation, also since we do not know where exactly the KH Universe fits in the scale free will vs destiny yet.

i dont really think as many people as you believe were fooled, lol. in the circles i was in, everyone thought that. as i said there are tonnes of fanfics about it lol. you know what though, it's strange what different people assume. i'm not sure why, but after Kh2 i assumed that growing your own new heart meant you never had to reunite with your other and you could be your own new nobody self forever--which was why the org wanted to build a kh for themselves rather than just planning to kill whatever heartless had their other's heart inside it. and then i assumed that by the end axel and roxas and namine at least had shaky little hearts of their own through some way, either the power of friendship or through their connections to sora or both lol. (this was before i knew about ven or anything lol this was just right after playing kh2)

and it looks like i was maaainly right, i just didn't guess the mx seed stuff lol. buuut i still dont know why i assumed what i assumed about getting your own heart meaning you could be your own person, because that was never said in the game, and in DDD Axel turned into Lea anyway. so maybe... he never got his own heart after all, anyway lol

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Really? Lol, maybe I am just already damaged by the stubborn faction who kept (and probably keeps) insisting Naminé and Roxas had no hearts and should not be allowed to come back, of which we had(have?) several specimens around here if I remember correctly.
Indeed, having your own heart means exactly that you don't need to reunite with your Heartless (or your "other" in Roxas' and Naminé's cases) since a heart is the proof of life and designates you as a person/living being.
Like said, the reason Roxas had to disappear was solely because of the Sora-memory-mess created by Naminé, without that, they could have co-existed fine (although that would bring up the question about the fate of Ven's heart).
If I recall correctly it was even confirmed either in the KH2 Ultimania or the Director's Report that the Organisation members (except maybe Saix, going by his last quotes in KH2) were NOT looking for their old hearts, but only to gain one in order to become a person.
You are partly right also about the getting your own heart making you your person, but that goes only for Nobodies who have a sense of self independent from their original one. Xemnas, Naminé and Roxas are these exceptions where this works, as their sense of self/consciousness is separate from Xehanort, Kairi and Sora and therefore a new heart means indeed a new person. Those however who have normal Heartless, like anyone else of the human shaped Nobodies, have the same sense of self/consciousness as their original selves because it got transferred over with their memories, since those form your sense of self.
In normal cases when a Heartless is born, the being in question loses its sense of self and the Heartless is just an instinct driven creature. The being is practically non-existing this way. Now, if a strong-willed heart becomes a Heartless we know that in some cases this existence gives birth to a Nobody. The memories (and therefore the original sense of self) get transferred over to the Nobody, making it essentially the same being only in a different form. Exactly this didn't happen with Xemnas (as Ansem SoD was around and kept many memories, although Xemnas had a mixed bunch of Apprentice Xehanort, Terra and Master Xehanort, he's an even weirder case than Naminé), Naminé (Kairi kept her consciousness as well) and Roxas (Sora kept his).
So the reason Axel "turned" into Lea is obvious because there was only one sense of self to begin with. Regardless of how far Axel's heart bud was developed (and it did develop, since Axel cried and that's a proof of a heart), it housed Lea's consciousness and memories inside. So when Lea's original heart was freed/restored, it fused together with Axel's "heart-bud" into one heart, which also explains why Lea can access Axel's memories and sees them as his own. The same should apply to every other Org member who had started to develop their new hearts.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on Axel because this goes heavily into character interpretation territory.

Basically, I can personally clearly see a missing development arc between CoM and KH2, solidified during Kh2 and resolved by his death. I think it's one of those things where it depends on a) your expectations going into Days and b) how you interpreted Axel's character before Days. Some people did interpret him as a goofball from the start, and expected him to be that way and not change, some interpreted him much darker and thought he was derailed in KH2 and didn't expect anything from Days except fanservice. Those are the two extremes, I guess. (Well the real extreme is probably the Roxas-obsessed clingy "pedo" Axel but that was always definitely never grounded in canon. Or a joke. I'm... never sure... lol)

I personally saw him as someone who was very sharp, clever, surprisingly private, a good actor with a love for theatrics who knew how to use both those skills to his advantage, and someone who did buy into the 'no heart' dogma of the Organisation. I thought that he was probably interested in Sora and Roxas in the beginning for mostly self-preservation reasons, but then slowly, through friendship yadda yadda yadda learned the value of opening up to someone else, which led to the want to protect someone other than himself, which he still did basically selfishly (them being hurt meant him being hurt) and even perhaps questioning the no-heart propaganda, which slowly graduated towards the end of kh2 to him wanting what's best for someone even if it would hurt himself. He also learned an important lesson about playing things too safe and trying to be on too many sides. All those things, as I said, were resolved by him finally choosing one side that wasn't really in his personal best interests anyway, protecting someone he had come to care about, and sacrificing himself. It's like all his themes coming together...

Ahhh Axel ;A:/

In any case, if you understand where I am interpreting that from, then you can understand that we saw the start of that in CoM and the end of that in KH2 and yet there was no real middle. It makes me sad, because if there had been a middle, then he would be the best developed character after Riku imo.

Instead they choose to, as you say, play up the goofy nice caring parts so he never changed and never really learned anything except "keeping secrets from my friends (who i just magically am friends with) when I am working really hard behind the scenes trying to protect them from horrible things is a bad idea because they will find out and get mad and leave me and the horrible things will happen anyway, except this doesn't really have a resolution or go anywhere because it has nothing to do with what I then went and did in KH2"

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That would probably the best course of action. Besides, even when I am standing firmly by my own interpretations I am not always aiming to convince my interlocutor to take on my interpretation. I simply state why I think of my interpretation of more fitting based on the entire series. It's however always intriguing to see where other people get the base for their interpretation from, especially when they can be based on more than just one line of dialogue or interview-statement.
It's exactly that: I don't clearly see where there is something missing in Axel's "change". He changed from his old ways over the course of KH2.
Now looking at Days-scenes again (Youtube-Walkthrough, thank you), he acts subtly like his CoM-persona even there, as in being casually joking around (with Xigbar and Saix, which the latter seems to be often annoyed at) like he also did with Vexen in CoM (who reacted similar to Saix) or cold indifference (towards Larxene in CoM, Xaldin and partly Luxord in Days). The only one he seems to act really friendly around is Roxas, even with Xion it took a while for him to get to really like her in some fashion.
Saying he was a "goofball" from the beginning is probably also not the correct course of describing him, as the more I look at his role as a whole (excluding Dream Drop Distance and the last parts of KH2), he is a pretty selfish and cold, calculating individual. Roxas truly seems to be the only exception where he acts nicely as a big brother figure, and since we see Days mostly from Roxas' perspective we see more of Axel's "goofball"-persona. Even in Days when Axel is talking with i.e. Saix without Roxas around you see that he's much colder and distanced, like in CoM.
Lol, it's almost as if Roxas is a sort of strange morality pet for Axel.
The "pedo"-hammer, depending from which "faction" it comes, is clearly a way overblown interpretation. I have no clear overview on the warring armies in the fandom, but I can imagine this statement mostly coming from the oversensitive, overly conservative dickheads who see in any form of affection or attraction of a male character towards another male always the impending downfall of the occident and a sexual interest. As if gender(or rather, biological sex) control your feelings towards someone, it's all in the head. That being said, to me it's more than obvious that Roxas means something
special to Axel/Lea, in what form and shape is up to debate (and I personally highly doubt that it is romantic in nature), but there is something, also because the kid is the only one Axel acts friendly towards most of the time.
Why it is that way is not clearly shown, and as we alerady talked about, was a missed opportunity in Days by making it all too quick.
So from this perspective I'd agree that there is something missing in Axel's development, only not in the sense that his ruthless, cold demeanor shown mostly in CoM was all he was capable of. He had always the more caring side he showed towards Roxas (and later Xion) in Days, what they failed to bring over to us is why Axel choose to let that side out and not treat Roxas like all the other Org members, either with cold indifference or ruthless professionalism. Even with Saix, his supposed "friend" he was not friendly at all, even before the factor "Roxas" started to meddle into the affairs.
I can only assume that, given he acted friendly to Roxas even before he met Sora in in CoM, that he already felt some subconscious attraction (maybe Roxas' just born heart? Ven's crippled one within him?) that made him act differently towards him than to the other members? After reading the secret reports again, Axel seems to be somewhat satisfied with Roxas' development on Day 22 while when coming back at Day 72 he already muses on how special Roxas. The way to the point when he later states that Roxas was "the only one he liked" is shown, but the reasons for that are mostly left ambigious.
As for his change in KH2, I would assume that a big part of it also comes from his interactions with Naminé, which were sadly omitted in the actual game which made him eventually realize that continuing on his lone crusader path would in the end only benefit Xemnas and that if Sora is lost he loses Roxas as well since he's now trapped inside Sora and at the time of KH2 (in-universe) there was no way of reversing that process (because old jerkass DiZ choose to keep his mouth shut about his research, hiding it in Sora instead).
KH2's writing is also not the best in da house. It has been a while since I played KH2 and I don't remember if it has been made ever clear (or was made clear only in the Final Mix) why Axel choose in the end to abandon his plan to get his best friend back the hard way. After all, Riku did exactly the same, taking his best friend away by force and end his existence to save his own best friend.
In the end though, Axel's sacrifice was truly mostly to save Roxas, which is even lampshaded in his journal entry in DDD:

One of Organization XIII's more unique personalities. He was especially close to Roxas, another of their members. Axel expired while fighting to save Sora—or perhaps someone else.

Blatant, isn't it? ;P

I DISAGREE LOL

Again, I believe his situation could have worked like a coma patient who woke up with lots of memories missing. After that period of recovery, he would have a personality (just no memories of why he was who he was, because those were in the other side of his heart which was Sora at the time, until they fell back through when Namine started messing with things) and be able to speak etc. They could have set it up like that and no one would have been surprised.

I think the problems with his personality in the game go further, though: they couldn't be bothered to even give him a proper personality for Days, and to me it feels like deciding to revert him to toddler level is an excuse to get away with that. It comes down to lazy writing, like so much else.

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Anyone is free to disagree.
Yet in Roxas' case it was made a point that he had NO memories at all, not just "lots missing". There wasn't a single thing to base something off from.
Or to word it with Nomura:

For example, in this game we had the main character Roxas start out with having no memories, so people for whom this the first KH game they have played, they can learn about the world along with Roxas.

The question of "why he was who he was" has this way not even to be asked because there was nothing. When Sora spoke with Kairi after returning to his human form he said that he was about to lose his memories, but Kairi's intervention prevented that.
Like said, that's where our opinions devide further, as I see really not a single problem with how Roxas was portrayed through the first part of Days. It makes much more sense with his fiercely attitude for independence because he had not any stupid Sora-ballast in the beginning. It also drives home the fact that it was Naminé's messing with Sora's memories which diddlyed up so much in the first place with an even bigger nail.
And we DO see him develop an own identity in the time before Axel goes to Castle Oblivion, so in terms of Evolution this makes at least to me way more sense than adding anymore unneccessary convoluting Sora-crap into the mix. Naminé was the one to bring that stuff in.
I see you agree at least with that part of my essay, lol. That may be indeed the part where we meet in the middle, as I wholeheartly agree that Roxas should have had a personality swing somewhere mid-game and they missed to include that. Even with Xion there were enough reasons for Roxas to become bitchy and more aggressive during the second half of Days instead of remaining passive, getting his anger issues only 4 Days or so before the end of the game.
Would have been a good opportunity for an evolving character arc, and that's why I would call lazy writing or missed opportunity, not how he was in the beginning, that just drives home the point that he's HIM and no one else. ;P
(Lol, last time I checked, Roxas is always in that curling position when he's either depressed or deeply thinking. He was holding the exact same position at the clock tower right after he ran away from the Castle that never was, pondering what to do.
That he's so calm in that scene has most likely to do with the fact that he realized further fighting would be pointless and resigned to the inevitable.)
To be honest I can't remember what the Days-translation was, but since it's a FM-scene we never got in the west who are we to say that the official English version from Days isn't how it is intended to be in English generally?

NOPE I THINK ITS JUST MORE BORING THAT WAY LOL why can't it be both??

I like complicated tangled up stuff!

And being the other side of Sora just means Sora is the other side of Roxas. This is canon btw. They did start off as two halves of one whole. BUT yes, when they split, both of them did grow while apart too, and Roxas had things (friends, memories, a heart) that were entirely his own. That then makes what happened to him even MORE complicated and sad! It's a good thing to have both lol

(which is another reason why I dislike Xion being included--why did Roxas need to be in a trio that was just copying SRK? I liked it better when his life was very different and separate from Sora's. I also think that Xion existing really... makes you wonder what parts of Roxas are even real. His reactions to her are very very based in Sora's connections to Kairi, he couldn't not be her friend, he couldn't not want to protect her etc. The way he gets so twisted up about her and can't blame her for anything and thinks about her 24/7 and puts her above everything against all reason is just so... it feels a lot like how Sora got about Namine, except... that was outright stated to be manipulation. This was just Roxas' actual whole life. Playing Days I was like, was there anything individual to Roxas, in the end? Who is he even? :C)

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LOL NOPE AND I THINK IT'S JUST MAKING THINGS UNNECCESSARILY CONVOLUTED.

I'm also not against a reasonable level of complexity, but not up to eleven.

No matter how you turn it, in the end it just comes around to the "you're not you, but just a part of XXX", which is the notion Sora clearly rejects in DDD and which Roxas also rejected until all the propaganda and brainwashing from Naminé and DiZ kicked in at the end of KH2.
The way it started out are the origins, nothing more and it doesn't matter in the end.
(I realize I am often quoting Sora by now, lol):

Sora: Wait! Who cares if someone created you? You are you and nobody else. You
have your own heart inside you. Those feelings and memories are yours and yours
alone. They're special!

The same can very much be tweaked for Roxas:

Who cares if you originally came from me? You are you and nobody else.

I think this actually sums up pretty good my own stance on the matter as well, lol.

It's worth it, I swear ;D

Can imagine that, problem is though that I am so diddlying short of time these months it isn't even funny anymore. <__<

No... not really! It hasn't been explained where Roxas' personality came from, we are left to interpret that. Your interpretation that he was born as a fresh baby and learned everything on his own is definitely never stated outright by Nomura or the games. You could certainly make a case for it with some evidence, but there was also lots of memory overflow (he went into a coma very early on in his life when Namine started messing with Sora, remember? And had lots and lots of weird dreams about Sora, and was influenced by Sora's feelings when it came to Riku, and probably even Xion, as I said) and there was plenty of 'nobody/other' duality terminology and imagery used to link them in the games as well, so I wouldn't say that meta was even proved wrong. I think if I wanted to interpret the games that way I certainly could and nothing would outright contradict it, I might just have to make some adjustments according to the fact that Roxas did eventually grow his own heart as well as connect to Ven's, and all that other stuff about Xion etc

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Well yeah, there is seldom anything flat out explained in this series, but it has been shown (well, as long as one is willing to take what Days shows us as canon) and hinted at numerous times by Nomura in regarding to Roxas' initial status.
The notion that he would be nothing but some repressed feelings from Sora that he normally hides makes him look like only a dull afterimage of Sora instead of an own entity , and therefore and because he's not portrayed like this I reject that notion.
I won't search around for all evidence now as this post is already an essay, lol, and one case is already in answer 12.
That's the point though, any Memory "overflow" started only around Day 24 or so, nearly a month after Roxas already was around free to develop, when Naminé started her screwing around. It was stated if I remember correctly because of his close connection with Sora, not because he's just a cheap part broken off from him.
He had these visions often after that, yeah, but he never associated them with him.
Refresh my memory, when was Roxas ever influenced by Sora in regards to Riku? Last time I checked, unlike Sora, Roxas loathes Riku and doesn't want anything to do with him. That time in deep dive when he called out to him was most likely due to the Sora-memeories within him, and not anything he himself wanted to say.
True, but these are certainly many adjustments that have to be made to it in order to conveniently work, isn't it? In any case way more adjustments than I wold need to make to the other interpretation when just going with the less convoluted way and refrain to push in Sora-stuff in nearly every corner.
Lol, all this reminded me on my initial reaction when I first saw that Sora/Roxas scene in Dream Drop Distance.
I was like "Way to go Sora. Many people are going about how dorky you are sometimes and don't grasp things, and yet here you are and state a simple thing that back in KH2, Days etc. so-called "scholars" like Ansem the Wise, Riku, Naminé and many others failed to grasp in all their wisdom."

Y E S

you should

write

this fanfic
omg

Says that to someone who's aleady short on time like nothing with like four or five Fanics I want to read and can't and a big fanfic he already writes, *ggg*.
(note: I need more free time! ;P)

I personally didn't think it was developed much at all. They had that Darkside thing at the start, but from then on it's no strings attached bff. Even though Xion keeps tonnes of secrets from Roxas and doesn't rely on him and runs away from the Organisation SEVERAL TIMES?? It doesn't change anything, he never asks her why she runs away or even digs to find out what's wrong with her, he just worries endlessly about her as she repeats the same patterns. And she doesn't help him anything (despite telling Riku that her friends need her) and worries him sick and it's like... why does he care this much? Why does she even care? Why do any of them care lol they don't talk about ANY of the super important life or death stuff going on in their lives, they just sit around eating ice cream

That' why I said "remotely decent". The first few missions they have together is certainly a (if awkwardly) way of sniffing at each other to make acquaintances. These scenes are given a big more emphasis, but that's already what there is about it. That's why I stressed that Roxas' and Xion's relationship needed to be developed in more detail as well, it was only slightly more "present" due to emphasis than the one with Axel.

Actually I really agree. While BBS (and KH1 too when it comes to it lol) are set where we are meant to know that these people are already really close, it still could have been done better. There are lots of things I think could have been done better in BBS regarding the setup, actually. I think the LoD should have had more significance and more Keyblade culture stuff should have been important, and yes, TAV should have had more flashbacks and stuff. Hmm maybe the novels have this? I'm getting there... haha

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There's always something that could be done better, but with those important themes the should have give more focus to that. Like giving only two or three more flashback scenes about, for instance, why Ventus is such a clingy love-freak (as cute as it is) or why Aqua and Terra are so overprotective would have done wonders for those players who don't like to dig into source material in order to connect and feel with them. When looking at everything what happened and background info we can imagine from where all this comes, but having some more obvious to relate to would have make things easier.
The same way I feel for example also with Vanitas, just like Darth Maul in Star Wars Episode I, he was practically a character of wasted potential who had no purpose (strictly in-game speaking) beyond being a powerful opponent and the right hand of the main antagonist. They could really have included some small pieces where he at least interacts more with someone, even if it is just with Master Xehanort.
KH1 (and the series in general) has also this same problem with the "other side" of the triangle because we never get any serious interaction between Riku and Kairi.
I bet the novels would have that, because unlike a game you don't have any gameplay stuff and written works can always go in greater detail than games or movies. Best examples would be the Lord of the Rings. I love Peter Jackson's interpretation on it and especially the extended version (each film MORE than three hours, that's huge times for movies) leaves a big impact, and yet it still has so many things that are left out from the books. It's not a fault of the films, it just shows that such media cannot get into a scope just like a book does.

Did he? Link please omg

There were several instances, two in Famitsu:

— Lea (Axel) ended up playing an unexpected role. I was wondering what was running through your mind when you thought to make him a Keyblade wielder.
Nomura: I figured since he had returned to being human, he wouldn’t have much luck bringing back the people he wanted without some sort of power. Throwing his chakrams doesn’t really count. (Laughs.)
---
— Even though Axel had been eliminated in Kingdom Hearts II, since that time, had you considered having him appear again in his human form Lea?
Nomura: I thought a lot about that. Should I leave him as he was or should I bring him back again? However, when I considered the people that Lea wants to bring back, his existence plays a big role. I think Lea has successively become a key character.

And one in the Ultimania, it's one of those six big questions after the main Nomura interview, where Nomura's portrait is directly beside them:

Q: What happens to Lea hereafter now that he has become a Keyblade wielder?
A: Lea, having returned to his human form, chosen by the Keyblade. Does him getting a Keyblade have anything to do with his best friend Roxas? And is there a possibility that Lea's become one of the protectors of Light?

Could be! Or could be... *drumroll*.... lazzzzyyyy wrrrriitinngggg!! /crowd cheers then realises and feels sad

(But yes... he can be really diddlying adorable haha ahhh 8D Yes I am a total Roxas fangirl. That is one of the biggest reasons why Days broke my heart. It diddlyed over my darling boy :C)

We went through that one already somewhere above I think, lol, to each his/her own interpretation. I can agree with several parts being bad writing, especially the later development (or lack thereof) and evolution of his personality, but the start is not one of these parts since they make more sense in my book.
(Maybe that's one part of our differences, I have no single favorite character so my view on things may differ greatly because of that.)

Ooh! I really like that. Only I would put Kairi on there somewhere! Him and Kairi had a pretty cute convo in KH2 :3 Anddd idk if orange is really a Roxas colour 8D BUT I KNOW WHY YOU DID IT cause of the sunset~

Heh, ok, but that convo was really the only contact or impact he had with her ever, right? DiZ may certainly not be his buddy (the contrary, lol) and neither is Riku, but I do think they have closer ties to Roxas than Kairi has. Naminé, Xion, Axel, Sora and Ventus are no-brainers though.
I originally intended to include Hayner, Pence and Olette, but then I realized that I miss one circle for that, and that's when I included Riku and DiZ.
That's indeed it, I made the orange colors because of Twilight Town, and because orange is also a color that decribes light.

I think AtW did in Japanese, too. Since I had to translate it I remember the wording more clearly than I do for the English 8D Both of them used the same budding type words, only when Xemnas said it he made it sound creepy, AtW flipped his words and made it sound cute. I can't remember exactly what it was but I remember going awww at the parallel at the time I was translating all that TWTNW and Riku-ending stuff!

I think, though, that the connecting to other people factor is the most important factor. That's where AtW is leading with his speech, and it's the core element of why Sora is the one who can save everyone. So yeah he did mention those other things but the whole speech was emphasising the role we have connecting with others.

Well yeah, duh, it comes with the territory since Xemnas IS creepy. A weirdo who likes to troll the whole universe and is keen throwing skyscrapers around. Whenever I hear his voice I am reminded why he's so creepy (his voice actor really captures that well).
Ansem the Wise however originally started out his research with good intentions, hoping to help the people of his world before he got screwed over by his traitorous apprentices and turned into revenge-blinded jerkass DiZ.
The connecting stuff being the most important may also be another contributing factor in the fast growth of Roxas' heart, since he was not only the most emotional (also thanks to both Ven and Sora) but also the only one who connected more than once with Disney characters (like Genie, Lock, Shock and Barrel, Tinkerbell and Phil).

Or Sora's heart. You have to remember that Sora memories were going through him all through Days, even though most of them passed right on into Xion. He was having bad sleep from weird Sora dreams he couldn't remember properly after waking up etc through that entire block of the game when Xion was sapping his strength and then they were see-sawing etc

Plus, it could be that Roxas' heart is not fully grown yet. Perhaps that is why he, and Namine, could merge back into Sora and Kairi at all. Perhaps if they had truly been whole people at that point it wouldn't have been possible without freaky Terranort stabby shit going down lol. (Then again, Kairi somehow merged into Sora in KH1 without needing to stab herself...)

So perhaps what Sora has to do is complete them by believing in them! Idk! I'm waiting to see what it is :3

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Sora memories only started to bother him when he was already around for about a month, after Naminé created the mess that would eventually be his undoing.
So any of the fast development he had (he went from Zombie-mode into "gloomy kid"-mode in about a week) before that must have had other "helpers"
You already said it, Kairi also merged into Sora without any stabbety-stuff and she was a "full" person, and in order to be able to cry, you have to have a heart, and Xigbar indirectly confirmed to Sora that those he mentioned have grown hearts. ("It's about time you noticed.")
Ansem the Wise and Nomura practically implied what Sora has to do, and the tools he needs to make it happen (power of the Realm of Sleep, gained in DDD and Ansem's data as a "how to"-tutorial) are available by now.
How exactly that plays out is one of the focal points of KH III, so it is logical that Nomura won't reveal too much about it.

It really made very little sense... I mean... if they were interacting with time travelling MX to do this plan, then they knew they were going to fail anyway... So why did they waste time on all the ones they already knew would fail... and why did they let Sora, Roxas and Xion hang around in Twilight Town playing happy families and obviously gaining budding hearts... was that to ensure the seven lights?? If so... why didn't they recruit more Org members if they were doing 13 darknesses AND some random lights?? If they knew that they were filling up some spaces with time travel doppelgangers then why did they bother wasting time with 13 people exactly?

Idk this might be one of the things that makes more sense with future games? I'll let the jury sit lol

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But that's the kicker, they didn't knew at the time. Xigbar and Xemnas explained the original plan to Sora which Xemnas was moving forwards on Xehanort's behest. They didn't know they would fail in the beginning.
Young Xehanort mentions that too:

Organization XIII's true goal is to divide Xehanort's heart among thirteen vessels. Thanks to you and Sora, we learned not all our candidates were fit for the task. But, we managed to make up the difference.

Young Xehanort mentions that they only learned through Sora's and Riku's interference that most Org members were unfit for the task.
The "filling up space with time-travelling doppelgangers"-plan was yet another back-up plan of Master Xehanort, not the original plan. Xehanort is crazy prepared and piles up one plan over another. The stuff that was done in KH 1 and 2 by Ansem and Xemnas was them and Xigbar acting on the back-up plan for the case if Xehanort's schemes in BBS failed. The stuff we learn now in DDD was another back-up in case the stuff from KH 1 and 2 fails as well.
As for why they let "Sora, Roxas and Xion roam about" the original plan only called for the artificial KH to be completed. Xemnas didn't care about anything else and if he had got it like he wanted everyone would have been screwed anyways and Xehanort's first plan a success, since Xemnas could then have used KH's power to force a Xehanort-seed into everyone, with no need to fall back to the time-travel back-up bogus.
Xemnas also didn't really care about Roxas, Sora or Xion in any form as long as he could use just one of them. Which one was irrelevant to him, as mentioned in the Days Ultimania:

-- So at the start of the Replica Project they didn't have plans to get rid of Roxas?
Nomura: That's right. Originally the plan was to keep their power in balance. If it had been maintained, there would have been no need to get rid of one of them. But in the end Xion began absorbing too much power, and so they no longer needed Roxas. Xemnas had nothing to do with the plan, however, and only the people below him were concerned with it. Xemnas only cared that Kingdom Hearts be completed. Originally the Castle Oblivion plan was to use both Roxas and Sora, but since that changed it would be equally convenient to wait until Sora woke up in Kingdom Hearts II and use him then.

In the end, no matter how things turned out Xemnas would be on the winning side, and even if he fails, the back-up plan (which he does not know about, he only knows about the true goal of the Org at the time of KH2, which Xigbar explains to Sora in DDD) would kick in and give Master Xehanort yet a new opportunity.
So in short, they weren't wasting time but trying to go through with the original plan.

Or, again lol, Sora's and his own. Roxas was born from Sora, and like I said, Sora's was Roxas' heart first, and I could see it as always being a big part of his identity, the one he'd been searching for so desperately. It was a pretty huge thing for him to come to terms with, and he did, that was his main plot in KH2 (especially shown in FM+ as I already said). In fact... Roxas and Namine are probably the only two people in the universe to technically HAVE two hearts! Even if one of them is joint shared lol (Maybe we are meant to think Axel/Lea also has two... some... how lol)

Spoiler Show

His own wielding ability already got handed down from Sora since he was born from him, so if we assume that he can still dual wield even with Ven and Sora also both running around swinging their blades, his new heart would need to have TWO wielding abilities by itself.
I also don't see why it is such a big deal where he originally came from. That he was born from Sora is common knowledge but it doesn't matter when he has his own heart. He's his own person and doesn't need to cling to or always be reminded about being "part Sora" because that's exactly what he DOESN'T WANT. And in DDD Sora pretty much confirms that he doesn't need to and deserves to exist on his own without all the Sora-here-Sora-there attached. Roxas was mainly looking for answers about where he came from, his origin, and about the Keyblade, his identity is however completely his own.
That "technically having two hearts" would actually be a loophole for dual wield though I could imagine Nomura coming up with just to have an explanation. I do really wonder about Lea having two hearts though, he wouldn't really benefit from having two variants of the same stuff. After all, we don't know if a consciousness can be in several hearts at the same time, but normally I would think that a consciousness only needs one heart to have as "home".

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Of course I grasp the logic of that, although I do wonder just how long the spoiler ban is planned to be held up. Three months after release most people should by now have at least once finished the story.

Greetings user, and thank you for your opinion on our SPOILER BAN.

Sadly, not everybody in this world has money for Nintendo's latest handheld system, and thus have chosen to remain unspoiled of the game until they can purchase the game. Generally in three months time a good amount of people who had wanted to play the game will have made their purchase, and most others will purchase the game during holiday season sales which begin after October 31st. Three months has been our customary time period for spoiler bans on Kingdom Hearts Insider for most new game releases, and we wish to allow all users of our site enough time to access the game and feel comfortable about visiting without the fear of being spoiled.

I would appreciate if you did stop complaining about our SPOILER BAN, considering you have less than FIFTEEN days until it is lifted.

Thanks!

-KHInsider Staff

 

[Reika]

Okay, I may have taken this too far. xD;
The words just kinda poured out like a waterfall, especially since I've been seeing a lot of posts like this lately.

And yes, I admit I've fallen back into Xionism. ;w; I think what I disliked about her was RAX, not Xion herself.
And I still think she's a Sue.

 

[gelandporn]

Ok, when you said you had taken it too far, and that you've fallen into Xionism again, I was reading askthekhnerd's post as if it was yours and I just ummmmmmmm.

But no, I don't think you went overboard! You're advocating equality of opinion, you should be pretty vocal about that. Props.

 

[Reika]

xD
Their post kinda poofed, huh?

Thanks. I was worried I may have overreacted. ^^;
Meanwhile, I love how they backtracked in their reply.

 

[NocturnalMelody]

Awww, I hope you feel better soon!

Thanks! <3 It has long since passed, thank goodness, I hate being sick!

That is my favorite quote, not just from Demyx, but from every video game I've ever played!!!

SPEAKING OF DEMYX and the hilarious character he is, this girl I watch on DA uploads the most recent chapters of the 358/2 Days manga (and her comics are really cute and funny too)! I thought you'd enjoy this chapter just as much as I did because, surprisingly, it's almost ALL Demyx and his antics! http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d5j0m28 (And I love it even more because Xion not once makes an actual appearance >)

Unfortunately I don't speak Japanese, so I can't read it, but the facial expressions make up for it.

Also, I have a crazy idea, but I'm not sure if you guys would want to do it...

We've all talked about what we would've like to have seen in Days and Grass especially has had some pretty amazing ideas...what if we ALL collaborated on an alternate Days fanfic? Like, we'd all come up with an outline of the plot, and everyone would pick a chapter to write, and then when each member finished, we could all beta it in the club and then maybe put it in the KHI Fanfiction section? Like a fun club project? We could include stuff like Grass' Riku/Roxas fight and WhitterTwitter's ideas for how Roxas would bond with the other members. And that way we wouldn't have to worry about busy schedules because we'd only have to write a few chapters each, but we'd still be collaborating together?

Ahhh I would love this idea ;_; Only I don't know if I would be able to participate in a timely manner, since I'm experiencing a bit of college overload X_X If I did manage to do it, I would hate to submit something that I didn't dedicate a lot of time to, since I'm not very confident in my writing and I'd want to put out something good. But damn, that would be awesome, since all of us have similar ideas and just need to put them all together.

Okay, I may have taken this too far. xD;
The words just kinda poured out like a waterfall, especially since I've been seeing a lot of posts like this lately.

And yes, I admit I've fallen back into Xionism. ;w; I think what I disliked about her was RAX, not Xion herself.
And I still think she's a Sue.

HAHA I think Sailor Moon is one of the biggest Sues of all, but I love her too!! Although I do wish the other Scouts got more development and attention than they did in the end.

Gah I wish I could like Xion too, things would be a little less painful! Maybe I would feel differently if she wasn't in the Organization and...say...one of the Twilight Town gang, because then we get rid of the angsty backstory and moping...but I don't even know if that would make me feel differently towards her though!

I don't think you were overreacting at all! These posts pop up on tumblr all the time unfortunately, like the one goldpanner found that we all tore apart MWAHAHAH

It's SO great to have Xion fans that actually understand where the haters are coming from and also understand that EVERY character has a reason to be hated! Maybe she has had bad experiences with Xion haters, but at the same time I see a LOT more haters being flamed by fans when they didn't actually do anything wrong.

I really wish I had a PS3...then I could get the new HD Remakes :< I MUST get 2.5 when it's released though...I mean, extra Organization data battles...the Roxas battle...the new cutscenes dubbed...! I can't miss it!

*sigh* I just hope that after I'm an old lady and KH III gets released it's not a huge disappointment...I think Nomura knows he's treading on thin ice now with the plot and needs to cool down.

 

[Reika]

HAHA I think Sailor Moon is one of the biggest Sues of all, but I love her too!! Although I do wish the other Scouts got more development and attention than they did in the end.

I know what you mean. xD As annoying as they can be, some of my favorite characters are Sues, so I can't really judge. Hell, I'm probably one of the few people who actually LOVED Berry from Tokyo Mew Mew, and she's the biggest Sue in that series!

Gah I wish I could like Xion too, things would be a little less painful! Maybe I would feel differently if she wasn't in the Organization and...say...one of the Twilight Town gang, because then we get rid of the angsty backstory and moping...but I don't even know if that would make me feel differently towards her though!

Since 3D came around and asspulled rectified the Organization 13 thing, Xion being in the Organization doesn't bother me. Her being buds with Roxas doesn't bother me. Roxas acting like a douche because of it bothered me. Xion completing the Axel/Roxas trio bothered me (I mean, ffs! Axel hanging out with Roxas wasn't that bad. But making the trio one 25-year old and TWO 14-year olds left a REALLY bad taste in my mouth).

I don't think you were overreacting at all! These posts pop up on tumblr all the time unfortunately, like the one goldpanner found that we all tore apart MWAHAHAH

It's SO great to have Xion fans that actually understand where the haters are coming from and also understand that EVERY character has a reason to be hated! Maybe she has had bad experiences with Xion haters, but at the same time I see a LOT more haters being flamed by fans when they didn't actually do anything wrong.

So I've noticed. x_x It's REALLY annoying; fans are allowed to express their opinion, but haters can't? Talk about hypocrisy. It's the fandumb that turned me into a hater for a long while.

It's hard to look down on haters when there are so many awful Xion fans treating them like shit - and over a fictional character, no less! I'm not usually one to hate characters myself (I think the only character in any franchise I really hate is Shou Tucker from Fullmetal Alchemist), but I can understand why one would, especially as so many characters are annoying or crappy enough TO hate. xD Despite my likeness for her, I can't blame people for hating Kairi, either. I just wish they weren't so insulting towards fans (though they seem to have quieted; 3D probably left little to complain about), just like I wish Xion fans weren't so insulting towards haters. Whoever said this had it right: Kingdom Hearts has quite possibly the most batshit insane fandoms in existence.

I really wish I had a PS3...then I could get the new HD Remakes :< I MUST get 2.5 when it's released though...I mean, extra Organization data battles...the Roxas battle...the new cutscenes dubbed...! I can't miss it!

Me, too. D: I think I'll work on that next year; HSN has payment plans.

*sigh* I just hope that after I'm an old lady and KH III gets released it's not a huge disappointment...I think Nomura knows he's treading on thin ice now with the plot and needs to cool down.

Yeah, really. xD It'll be a special edition game to celebrate the release of the Playstation 50.
I think he cracked that ice with the time travel and Xehanort clones crap

 

[Goldpanner]

I love you Reika <3

I completely agree. I think in the end, the people who clash are often people who have different intentions. I'm somebody who really loves to analyse why I love things or why I hate things. I like to think about all the elements and why they were chosen and think about my own reactions to them, it's just really fun for me. And analysing why I don't like something is fun at times, interesting at times, and cathartic at others! Some people don't care about that sort of thing and just like to enjoy the stories they consumed at the level of the intended reading and that is also perfectly fine. I do too, with some things, it just depends on what is more fun or what interests me more, and I'm sure everyone is the same.

But then the analytical people have to go act all snooty like their enjoyment is worth more... and the less-analytical people also act all snooty like 'true fans' are the ones who like absolutely everything about the series... and then other fans get upset because they can't tell the difference between taking issue with something and mindless hating and feel attacked... and other people go silly attacking like they think they're on some logic crusade when really they are just mindlessly hating

Ah man. But you are absolutely right and I am glad you got that person to change their mind ;D

 

[Reika]

Oops. xD; It took me way too long to reply to this.

I love you Reika <3

ILU2 bby <3

I completely agree. I think in the end, the people who clash are often people who have different intentions. I'm somebody who really loves to analyse why I love things or why I hate things. I like to think about all the elements and why they were chosen and think about my own reactions to them, it's just really fun for me. And analysing why I don't like something is fun at times, interesting at times, and cathartic at others! Some people don't care about that sort of thing and just like to enjoy the stories they consumed at the level of the intended reading and that is also perfectly fine. I do too, with some things, it just depends on what is more fun or what interests me more, and I'm sure everyone is the same.

Analyzing IS fun, and while I enjoy 99% of the series myself (to be honest, I can't think of a single character in the series that I hate; neutral, yes, but not hate), I can see it's many imperfections. The same goes with Xion; my mindset as a hater of hers still stands, it's just that I like her instead of hate her now. But my opinions on her character are still the same.
Same with me regarding the 'enjoy the stories they consumed at the level of the intended reading' bit. I'll analyze it online, but never while playing the game. I guess I'm a mix of both worlds. :S

But then the analytical people have to go act all snooty like their enjoyment is worth more... and the less-analytical people also act all snooty like 'true fans' are the ones who like absolutely everything about the series... and then other fans get upset because they can't tell the difference between taking issue with something and mindless hating and feel attacked... and other people go silly attacking like they think they're on some logic crusade when really they are just mindlessly hating

Agreed, it's no wonder the fandom butt heads so often. Like I once saw someone say; KH has one of the most batshit insane fandoms in existence. xD And it's true! I don't think I've seen this much animosity in a fandom since Twilight.

Ah man. But you are absolutely right and I am glad you got that person to change their mind ;D

Nah, they backtracked. xD I doubt I really changed their mind, they were just trying to save face.

 

[whittertwitter]

Whew! It's been awhile since I've visited this place; I've been busy with school, work, and other fandoms. (Bleach in particular has been on my mind.) How's everyone doing? I'd totally be up for the group fanfic if everyone else has time and interest. Has anyone checked out Tumblr recently? There's a rash of Xion White Knighting that's been going around recently, and it's quite annoying.

 

[NocturnalMelody]

Whew! It's been awhile since I've visited this place; I've been busy with school, work, and other fandoms. (Bleach in particular has been on my mind.) How's everyone doing? I'd totally be up for the group fanfic if everyone else has time and interest. Has anyone checked out Tumblr recently? There's a rash of Xion White Knighting that's been going around recently, and it's quite annoying.

You mean like this?

Shota Fisting

It's funny, it's come to the point where I dislike these Xion fans more than Xion herself. The hypocrisy in posts like these is kind of amusing though :tongue:

I've been writing a boatload of papers, just finished my last final ever for college, and now its the terrifying reality of being out in the real world looking for a lifelong career :frown: Too bad there's only been a trickle of KH news lately, although I've been holding off with my love for Pokemon :wink:

 

[whittertwitter]

You mean like this?

Shota Fisting

It's funny, it's come to the point where I dislike these Xion fans more than Xion herself. The hypocrisy in posts like these is kind of amusing though :tongue:

I've been writing a boatload of papers, just finished my last final ever for college, and now its the terrifying reality of being out in the real world looking for a lifelong career :frown: Too bad there's only been a trickle of KH news lately, although I've been holding off with my love for Pokemon :wink:

Yep! I had to unfollow a bunch of people because they were spamming my dash with Xion and saying that anyone who hates her is a rabid yaoi fangirl. (Even though this club's existence shows that's not true.)

Ah, how exciting! I know the feeling; I have one semester left before I start grad school, so I'll have to get a real job soon. Have you seen the screenshots from the KH HD Remix? Someone posted side-by-side shots comparing the original with the remix, and the difference is astounding. I hope we actually get it; I've heard rumors it'll be Japan-exclusive. I've been kept busy with Bleach, Tales of the Abyss, and news about Lightning Returns. (Have you seen Lightning's new outfit? It's HIDEOUS.)

 

[Chakolat Strawberry]

Good to see this club is somewhat active! compared to the others, at least. (hi guys)

Yep! I had to unfollow a bunch of people because they were spamming my dash with Xion and saying that anyone who hates her is a rabid yaoi fangirl. (Even though this club's existence shows that's not true.)

That's the reason why I decided to come here, actually... it's hard being a Xion hater on Tumblr because they're under the assumption all Xion haters dislike her for being a cockblock. The Tumblr KH fandom isn't exactly the brightest, but still.

 

[Reika]

The Tumblr KH fandom (or fandumb) is pretty much the same as TVTropes'. That's why I tend to avoid KH on both sites; too frustrating. :/

 

[whittertwitter]

That's the reason why I decided to come here, actually... it's hard being a Xion hater on Tumblr because they're under the assumption all Xion haters dislike her for being a cockblock. The Tumblr KH fandom isn't exactly the brightest, but still.

The Tumblr KH fandom (or fandumb) is pretty much the same as TVTropes'. That's why I tend to avoid KH on both sites; too frustrating. :/

Just unfollowed another today! -_-; Seriously, it's one thing to like a character, but Xion fans on Tumblr and TV Tropes take it too far. I've noticed that fans of characters who've been the subject of bashing have a tendency to go overboard in their defense of the characters, to the point where they claim the characters have "no flaws", which is strange to me. I have my characters I adore, but I freely admit they have flaws. (Considering most of my favorite characters are villains, it's pretty much necessary.) What kills me is when Xion fans claim they're the minority. The fact that most of the Xion tag is full of love for the character and anyone who posts anything slightly negative gets dog-piled should be a clue that that's not true.

 

[Xbladewielder]

Can I join? I don't extremely hate her but I dont like her either.

 

[Reika]

Just unfollowed another today! -_-; Seriously, it's one thing to like a character, but Xion fans on Tumblr and TV Tropes take it too far. I've noticed that fans of characters who've been the subject of bashing have a tendency to go overboard in their defense of the characters, to the point where they claim the characters have "no flaws", which is strange to me. I have my characters I adore, but I freely admit they have flaws. (Considering most of my favorite characters are villains, it's pretty much necessary.) What kills me is when Xion fans claim they're the minority. The fact that most of the Xion tag is full of love for the character and anyone who posts anything slightly negative gets dog-piled should be a clue that that's not true.

Flawed characters are awesome anyway. <3 They're more realistic and are easier to relate to (which is why Merida is my favorite Disney Princess; she's more flawed than any Disney Princess I've seen yet). I don't understand what's wrong with admitting your favorite character has flaws. :/
Yeah, there are more Xion fans than haters. And the other side of the spectrum isn't too peachy; I've seen people use this fact as a reason for why Xion is perfect and why all haters are all morons who have no idea what they're talking about.